Author Topic: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ  (Read 171 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Trenton Bill and I went to Pete's Pizza at the Columbus market this past Sunday.  I really liked the Pete's Pizza Sicilian slices I had.  I would like to try to make a pizza like Pete's if I can.  If I could make a pizza similar to Pete's Pizza I would try to offer it at market.

I can not find out a lot about Pete's Pizza.  There is also another pizzeria at the Columbus Farmers Market called Kate & Al's pizza.  I did not taste Kate & Al's pizza, but read and heard the two pizzas are very similar.  Pete's Pizza and Kate and Al's are from the same family. 

What I have read so far is an part of an article from The Star-Ledger “A Slice of Jersey” by Peter Genovese, “Your Ultimate Guide to Pizza in the Garden State”. http://client.pediment.com/nj/Munch_II_BOOK_v7.pdf   On pages 65-66 Some of the things it says about Kate & Al's Pizza it was opened in 1955 by  Alexander Stefan and his wife Kate.  The stand had originally been opened by Pete Bernath, Kate Stefan's brother.  Bernath, who already had a pizzeria near Roebling just west of Columbus, then opened a pizzeria in another section of the market and called it Pete's Pizza.  I read elsewhere on the web that Pete might have owned Capitol Tomato Pies in Trenton.  The Stefans made tomato pies.  As tomato pies are know in the Trenton area the cheese is laid down first.  It is said in the above article that Pete's sauce is sweeter.  The abundant sweet sauce it what really stood out for me.  I am curious as why the second Kate & Al's pizza in St. Petersburg, Florida didn't do well.  Russel says they swore it was the water.  It also says in the above article the key to a Kate & Al's pizza is not the dough but the sauce, according to Samantha Stefan.  It says the dough is baked in cast iron pans, but to me they look like steel pans.  The article mentions the dough for each pan weighing 1 pound 2 ounces. 

Another article on chowhound:  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/695730 

Trenton Bill tried petef's formulation at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7094.msg61238.html#msg61238   yesterday and said the dough was not sticky at all and the final pizza crust did not taste anything like a Pete's pizza.  Bill did not use the exact size steel pan.  Bill used KABF.

Some of the reviews of Kate & Al's and Pete's Pizza. 

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15246027173/kate--als-pizza-columbus

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g46373-d923048-r142580067-Kate_Al_s_Pizza-Columbus_New_Jersey.html

http://www.yelp.com/biz/petes-pizza-columbus

https://plus.google.com/110404110895013229578/about?gl=us&hl=en   

These are some of my photos from Trenton Bill and my visit to Pete's Pizza.  A few photos from Kate & Al's Pizza.

And a few photos from the web. The last photo shows Denise K. at Kate & Al's pizza with the steel pans.  Does anyone have any idea what size those steel pans might be?  Also if any members could be of any help in making a Pete's or Kate and Al's Pizza I would much appreciate any advise they could give.  The crust is light, but not as light and airy as a Detroit style pizza.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 08:44:11 AM »
Pete's Pizza facebook page.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/PETES-PIZZA-Columbus-farmers-market/124186124287279

Kate & Al's facebook page.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kate-and-Als-Pizza/131686903555151

One thing that could now be seen from the photos I took at Pete's Pizza, was there were picnic tables lined along one wall, and all of the picnic tables were full of people eating Pete's Pizza.  It looked to me like the doughs are proofed in the steel pan on racks that are covered in plastic.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3711
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 09:41:47 AM »
Rmonds me of L&B NY and or Brunos here in NJ? Nice juicy cheese under Heavy parm. and fried bottom
Love it
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 12:01:23 PM »
Rmonds me of L&B NY and or Brunos here in NJ? Nice juicy cheese under Heavy parm. and fried bottom
Love it

Thanks John!

I never tried Brunos in NJ, but to me Pete's Pizza doesn't taste anything like L&B in NY.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 802
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 12:32:35 PM »
I have not found a square that I like as much as L&B. I hear Prince St in NYC is as good or better....but I haven't been there yet.
Chaz

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to make a pizza like Pete's Pizza at Columbus Market, NJ
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 12:57:56 PM »
I have not found a square that I like as much as L&B. I hear Prince St in NYC is as good or better....but I haven't been there yet.

Chaz,

I know we all probably like different Sicilian pizzas.  I never tried Prince St. in NYC either.  For some reason I really liked the sweet sauce and the texture of the crust when eating Pete's slices.  You might not think the same thing if you get to try Pete's Pizza.  I liked how much sauce was applied.  I used the extra sauce that dripped on the paper plate to dip the crust into.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
A dough was mixed last evening for the first attempt at a Pete's Pizza.  Since I can't figure out what size pans Pete's uses, I just picked one of the pans I had for this attempt.  If anyone can figure out what size pans Pete's or Kate & Al's uses let me know maybe what size they are, and maybe where I could purchase one for future attempts.  I am also having problems figuring out what might be the TF of Pete's dough.  I saw the big racks, where I guess doughs were proofing in the pans at room temperature.  There were plastic coverings over the big racks. 

Pete's sauce is really sweet, and from what Bill and I could taste we didn't think any sugar is added to the sauce.  The sauce tasted extra sweet and fresh.  I am not usually a fan of extra sweet sauce for a pizza, but somehow the extra sweet sauce worked really well on Pete's Pizza.  We could be wrong though about no sugar being added to Pete's sauce.  We did not taste or see any herbs in Pete's sauce.  The waitress told us, when we asked about the sauce, that Dolce was used.  When asked more if that was the only sauce she said no, they use a whole tomato product too.  Since she told use Dolce is used I would take that might mean Super Dolce, a Stanislaus product.  I saw one can of a Stanislaus sauce, when I had a chance to peek into the kitchen, but could not see what kind of Stanislaus product it was.  I would tend to think maybe the other Stanislaus product might be the Alta Cucina “whole peeled plum tomatoes”.  I had a can of the Alta Cuncina whole peeled plum tomatoes at home.  I do not have a can of the Super Dolce though.  If I recall correctly, I think the Jersey Fresh Crushed Tomatoes are sweet.  If anyone has any other ideas about Stanislaus products, or another combination of tomato products, that might be better to try out let me know.  I have no idea of what kind of mozzarella is being used on a Pete's pizza.

I probably will attempt a Pete's pizza later today.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22290
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

Can you tell us the dough ball weight and the dimensions of your pan?

As you can see from the specs for the Stanislaus Super Dolce at http://fresh-pack.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, it has 6 grams of Sugars for a 60-gram serving size. That is on the high side for Stanislaus tomatoes. It is also fairly low in Sodium and, as you might recall from an experiment I conducted at the Mellow Mushroom thread, high salt levels can mitigate, or mask, some of the sweetness in the crust. The same principle should apply to the tomatoes. As for the second tomato product, if one were looking to emphasize the sweetness of the sauce, without adding sugar, then ideally you would look to another Stanislaus tomato product that is also high in Sugars but low in Sodium. A good example of such a product is the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce such as shown at http://fresh-pack.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce.pdf. Of course, this is all speculation and it is possible that the second tomato product is not from Stanislaus. Do you recall if the sauce overall had any chunky tomato pieces or was it entirely smooth?

Peter


Online Mmmph

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 875
  • Location: ILM NC
A dough was mixed last evening for the first attempt at a Pete's Pizza.  Since I can't figure out what size pans Pete's uses, I just picked one of the pans I had for this attempt.  If anyone can figure out what size pans Pete's or Kate & Al's uses let me know maybe what size they are, and maybe where I could purchase one for future attempts.

Those pans look to be short sided, like Paderno World Cuisine pans. They look like these:
http://www.amazon.com/World-Cuisine-Steel-Baking-Sheet/dp/B001VH70X6/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I have two of the next size down...Love'm!
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

Can you tell us the dough ball weight and the dimensions of your pan?

As you can see from the specs for the Stanislaus Super Dolce at http://fresh-pack.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, it has 6 grams of Sugars for a 60-gram serving size. That is on the high side for Stanislaus tomatoes. It is also fairly low in Sodium and, as you might recall from an experiment I conducted at the Mellow Mushroom thread, high salt levels can mitigate, or mask, some of the sweetness in the crust. The same principle should apply to the tomatoes. As for the second tomato product, if one were looking to emphasize the sweetness of the sauce, without adding sugar, then ideally you would look to another Stanislaus tomato product that is also high in Sugars but low in Sodium. A good example of such a product is the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce such as shown at http://fresh-pack.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce.pdf. Of course, this is all speculation and it is possible that the second tomato product is not from Stanislaus. Do you recall if the sauce overall had any chunky tomato pieces or was it entirely smooth?

Peter

Peter,

I don't recall the exact dough ball weight, so I had to go back to the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator. My printer is on the fritz right now, so I copied on paper what I am trying last evening.  I just went back on the calculator and the dough ball weight was 1.45 lbs. 

I used:

Flour 100%
Water 66%
IDY .40 %
Salt 1.75 % regular table salt
Sugar 2.5%

Used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.  TF was 0.1421 with the bowl residue compensation.  The pan I am trying is 15.5” in length and 10.5” in width.  The pan does have sloping sides.

Thanks for the link to the specs for the Stanislaus Super Dolce, and telling me the sugar is on the high side for Stanislaus tomatoes.  I never look at how much sugar or sodium tomato products have.  I completely forgot about the experiment you conducted on the Mellow Mushroom thread, that showed high salt levels can mitigate, or mask, some of the sweetness in the crust.  I now understand better if I was looking to emphasize the sweetness of the sauce, without adding sugar, then ideally I would look to another Stanislaus tomato product that is also high in Sugars but low in Sodium.  I have some of the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce but it has basil added.  There were little pieces of tomatoes in Pete's sauce.  The sauce was not entirely smooth.  Do you think I should try the Saporito Super heavy Pizza Sauce with basil with the Jersey fresh crushed tomatoes until I can obtain other Stanislaus products?  Do you ever recall tasting a really sweet pizza sauce on any pizzas and then really liking the sauce.  To me it was like the sauce was the star of Pete's pizza.  I also am trying to decide if I should just cut the mozzarella and lay it down on top of the dough.  It seemed to me that the mozzarella was fairly thick. 

My daughter is going to take me to Pete's sometime in the future.  She was going to take me there tomorrow, but since the fire it doesn't appear the Columbus Market will be open until Thanksgiving day.  Maybe I can see more what Stanislaus products Pete's uses.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Those pans look to be short sided, like Paderno World Cuisine pans. They look like these:
http://www.amazon.com/World-Cuisine-Steel-Baking-Sheet/dp/B001VH70X6/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I have two of the next size down...Love'm!

Mmmph,

Yes, those pans are short sided, like the Paderno World Cuisine pans.  Thanks so much for the link.  I am glad to hear you love the Paderno World Cuisine pans. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22290
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Peter,

I don't recall the exact dough ball weight, so I had to go back to the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator. My printer is on the fritz right now, so I copied on paper what I am trying last evening.  I just went back on the calculator and the dough ball weight was 1.45 lbs. 

I used:

Flour 100%
Water 66%
IDY .40 %
Salt 1.75 % regular table salt
Sugar 2.5%

Used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.  TF was 0.1421 with the bowl residue compensation.  The pan I am trying is 15.5” in length and 10.5” in width.  The pan does have sloping sides.

Thanks for the link to the specs for the Stanislaus Super Dolce, and telling me the sugar is on the high side for Stanislaus tomatoes.  I never look at how much sugar or sodium tomato products have.  I completely forgot about the experiment you conducted on the Mellow Mushroom thread, that showed high salt levels can mitigate, or mask, some of the sweetness in the crust.  I now understand better if I was looking to emphasize the sweetness of the sauce, without adding sugar, then ideally I would look to another Stanislaus tomato product that is also high in Sugars but low in Sodium.  I have some of the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce but it has basil added.  There were little pieces of tomatoes in Pete's sauce.  The sauce was not entirely smooth.  Do you think I should try the Saporito Super heavy Pizza Sauce with basil with the Jersey fresh crushed tomatoes until I can obtain other Stanislaus products?  Do you ever recall tasting a really sweet pizza sauce on any pizzas and then really liking the sauce.  To me it was like the sauce was the star of Pete's pizza.  I also am trying to decide if I should just cut the mozzarella and lay it down on top of the dough.  It seemed to me that the mozzarella was fairly thick. 

My daughter is going to take me to Pete's sometime in the future.  She was going to take me there tomorrow, but since the fire it doesn't appear the Columbus Market will be open until Thanksgiving day.  Maybe I can see more what Stanislaus products Pete's uses.

Norma
Norma,

Your thickness factor appears to be in the range typical of Sicilian style doughs but perhaps toward the higher end of the range. Once you make the pizza, you should be in a better position to know whether the thickness factor should be increased or decreased for future efforts, or just left alone.

I think the Saporito and the Jersey Fresh tomatoes should make for a good combination to start. But you might check the serving size and Sugars and Sodium values on the label to get a better idea as to the degree of sweetness of the Jersey Fresh tomatoes.

I normally am not a fan of sweet sauces, especially if sugar is added to the sauces, but when I conducted my experiments with the Papa John's clone pizza sauces at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56931.html#msg56931, I did get somewhat attached to the sweetness, even if it was largely due to the added sugar. In your case, with the combination of tomatoes mentioned above, where there is no sugar added to the tomatoes, the sweetness should be a natural one, not one doctored up with a lot of sucrose (table sugar) to make you think you are getting a natural sweetness or to compensate for tomatoes that are of poor quality. 

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22438
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

Your thickness factor appears to be in the range typical of Sicilian style doughs but perhaps toward the higher end of the range. Once you make the pizza, you should be in a better position to know whether the thickness factor should be increased or decreased for future efforts, or just left alone.

I think the Saporito and the Jersey Fresh tomatoes should make for a good combination to start. But you might check the serving size and Sugars and Sodium values on the label to get a better idea as to the degree of sweetness of the Jersey Fresh tomatoes.

I normally am not a fan of sweet sauces, especially if sugar is added to the sauces, but when I conducted my experiments with the Papa John's clone pizza sauces at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56931.html#msg56931, I did get somewhat attached to the sweetness, even if it was largely due to the added sugar. In your case, with the combination of tomatoes mentioned above, where there is no sugar added to the tomatoes, the sweetness should be a natural one, not one doctored up with a lot of sucrose (table sugar) to make you think you are getting a natural sweetness or to compensate for tomatoes that are of poor quality. 

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that my Sicilian dough might be on the higher end of the range for the TF.  It has been awhile since I made another kind of Sicilian dough for a different size pan.  I am used to using less dough for the Detroit style pizzas.  The Detroit style baked pizzas can have different heights all depending on how long the dough is proofed, and at what temperature the doughs are proofed in the steel pans. 

I checked the Jersey Fresh Crushed Tomatoes and they have 3 grams of sugars for a 62-gram serving size.  Maybe the Jersey Fresh Crushed Tomatoes aren't the best brand to try.  The Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce isn't sweet at all for my tastes.

Thanks for telling me about how you did get somewhat attached to the sweetness in your clone Papa John's pizza sauce.  The link was interesting how you obtained a sample of Papa John's sauce, and then how you went on to clone Papa John's sauce.

I tried to blow up a photo to show really what the sauce looks like on a Pete's pizza slice.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan