Author Topic: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie  (Read 83027 times)

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Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #350 on: May 24, 2016, 09:36:46 AM »
Quality and loaded post Lou. 👏🏽.  I agree on many points you just touched upon.  This is pretty much how I've been making my L&B clone.

4) been using 2% dry milk.  You could be right about this.  That there is no dry milk in the dough.  I will test this out as well.  It would fit their low cost model.
5) sheeter is very important.  Im use a rolling pin but not just once before it goes into the pan.  I suspect the dough is layered.  This builds strength in the dough.  The dough is likely sheeted more than once.   

2% dry milk wouldn't really affect the crumb, just affect the browning of the crust.
generally 5% dry or 25% liquid form is the minimum for it to have any influence on crumb.
2% would be the same as 0.  <25% liquid milk would just be expensive water.





Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #351 on: May 24, 2016, 09:54:50 AM »
2% dry milk affects it more than 0% dry milk.  Everything has some effect.  5% has a bigger effect than 2% for sure.  I've had good results with just 2% and I've played around upto 5%.  I do see the difference but there are other major factors at play here to get correct first, particularly the fat level.  I've made some really good sweet rolls with the proper L&B like crumb with just 2% dry milk.  So my gut feeling is that 2% is sufficient and potentially not necessary at all as Lou posted.  But I'll know for sure when I can do the test.   There is only so much pizza I can eat and many variables to test here.   I think we have made some great progress so far though.   
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:45:45 PM by Jackie Tran »

Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #352 on: May 24, 2016, 10:03:10 AM »
and what's in the sauce?  it's not simply a stanislaus prepared sauce product.  could be a mix with redorta, cos it certainly doesn't taste like just saporito.  also, the sauce is not simply salt, pepper, oregano.  the sauce tastes like candy.


Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #353 on: May 24, 2016, 10:06:55 AM »
2% dry milk affects it more than 0% dry milk.  Everything has some effect.  5% has a bigger effect than 2% for sure.  I've had good results with just 2% and I've played around upto 5%.  I do see the difference but there are other major factors at play here to get correct first.   I've made some really good sweet rolls with the proper L&B like crumb with just 2% dry milk.  So my gut feeling is that 2% is sufficient and potentially not necessary at all as Lou posted.  But I'll know for sure when I can do the test.   There is only so much pizza I can eat and many variables to test here.   I think we have made some great progress so far though.

it's like a S shaped log curve.  going from 0 to 1 to 2% will do very little. you start seeing very drastic effects once at 4-5%.
it could very well be there's no dairy.  that crumb then needs to be created by other ingredients, cos it's not simply a mixing and hyrdration adjustment from what i can tell.  but you are capable of magic, so i'm looking forward to your results.  thanks for working on this.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #354 on: May 24, 2016, 10:13:46 AM »
and what's in the sauce?  it's not simply a stanislaus prepared sauce product.  could be a mix with redorta, cos it certainly doesn't taste like just saporito.  also, the sauce is not simply salt, pepper, oregano.  the sauce tastes like candy.

I honestly don't know.  And I will be the first to say that I'm not necessarily looking to clone L&B's square per se.  I'm a texture guy through and through.  I'd love to clone their crust though.   I'm happy with using just straight 6n1's with just a lil oregano for this pie. 

I will refer to you local guys who can do some hard research and have eaten there many times over.  But as far as the sauce goes Larry took pictures of Stanilaus box which Norma (I think) confirmed it as Saporito.  Stanilaus sauces are typically very sweet to begin with but they could be adding sugar along with potentially a SM tomato but I am guessing no.  Unless it's a cheap tomatoe they are cutting it with.  L&B strikes me as cost minded and low cost production.

They could be cutting it with another stanislaus product, I don't know.  But I wouldn't be suprised.  Honestly having eaten there only one time, my mind was so focus on the crumb texture at the time and this was 4 yrs ago.   Stanislaus products are very high quality and fairly inexpensive.  It's amazing how much the taste of some of their products can change once you cut it with water or mix it with their other products.  Saporito is thick if my memory is correct.  Cut it with water and add some oregano and more sugar if you think it needs to be sweeter.   And as we talked about likely uncooked.  L&B is simple, straight forward, low cost, high volume. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 10:24:28 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #355 on: May 24, 2016, 10:22:37 AM »
it's like a S shaped log curve.  going from 0 to 1 to 2% will do very little. you start seeing very drastic effects once at 4-5%.
it could very well be there's no dairy.  that crumb then needs to be created by other ingredients, cos it's not simply a mixing and hyrdration adjustment from what i can tell.  but you are capable of magic, so i'm looking forward to your results.  thanks for working on this.

You could be right about the 5% I don't know.  I'm zoning in on their texture but not exactly there yet.  Just saying I've had 2-3 pies and some sweet rolls that had that proper texture and they all had 2% dry milk.  I'm sorta leaving it at that for now while I iron out the dough handling protocol.  The strength IMO is vital how ever one wants to build it.  Either by intense mixing or S&F or sheeting, folding, re sheeting, and maybe even a few cycles of this.  It sounds like a lot but the strength and proof is a big component.  Again L&B is simple and likely no fuss tho so the process isn't likely as elaborate as what im experimenting with.  But it's a strong dough.  And at a semi low hydration, intense mixing for a home mixer is really just 7-8m in a KA mixer on speed 1.  This low hydration dough develops very quickly.  But then relaxes during fermentation, and the strength needs to be rebuilt, likely through sheeting. Again I honestly don't think it's sheeted once and into the pan but that's just my thoughts with layering dough at home.  Too many differences in the environments but dough is dough and should behave similarly from one environment to the next.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:51:41 PM by Jackie Tran »

Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #356 on: May 24, 2016, 10:29:26 AM »
I honestly don't know.  And I will be the first to say that I'm not necessarily looking to clone L&B's square per se.  I'm a texture guy through and through.  If love to clone their crust.   I'm happy with using just straight 6n1's with just a lil oregano for this pie. 

I will refer to you local guys who can do some hard research and have eaten there many times over.  But as far as the sauce goes Larry took pictures of Stanilaus box which Norma (I think) confirmed it as Saporito.  Stanilaus sauces are typically very sweet to begin with but they could be adding sugar along with potentially a SM tomato but I am guessing no.  Unless it's a cheap tomatoe they are cutting it with.  L&B strikes me as cost conscious. 

They could be cutting it with another stanislaus product, I don't know.  But I wouldn't be suprised.  Honestly having eaten there only one time, my mind was so focus on the crumb texture at the time and this was 4 yrs ago.   Stanislaus products are very high quality and fairly inexpensive.  It's amazing how much the taste of some of their products can change once you cut it with water or mix it with their other products.  Saporito is thick if my memory is correct.  Cut it with water and add some oregano and more sugar if you think it needs to be sweeter.   And as we talked about likely uncooked.  L&B is simple, straight forward, low cost, high volume.

sorry i didn't put the attachment on, was asking hotsawce.  but yeah, i would say it's not just saporito.  saporito is sweet like a stereotypical cali tomato, but the l&b sauce is REALLY sweet which could also be sugar or corn syrup additive to the sauce.  reason i think it's not just saporito is there's fresher tomato flavor and texture that reminds me of SM, plum, or redorta.  also saporito is a heavy paste that needs to be watered down to use.  it's a great canned tomato product i agree, but i think there's another canned tomato puree into the mix.  you'll also see this in color.  the l&b sauce is much brighter red than saporito alone. 

i think the sauce is a crucial component of their square.  like you said, it's minimal amounts of mozzerella reallly only there to get that gumline, and then pecorino.  so this is really more of a pie about the tomato and bread.


Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #357 on: May 24, 2016, 10:35:45 AM »
You could be right about the 5% I don't know.  I'm zoning in on their texture but not exactly there yet.  Just saying I've had 2-3 pies and some sweet rolls that had that proper texture and they all had 2% dry milk.  I'm sorta leaving it at that for now while I iron out the dough handling protocol.  The strength IMO is vital how ever one wants to build it.  Either by intense mixing or S&F or sheeting, fold, re sheeting, and maybe even a few cycles of this.  It sounds like a lot but the strength and proof is a big component.  Again L&B is simple and likely no fuss tho so the process isn't likely as elaborate as what im experimenting with.  But it's a strong dough.  And at a semi low hydration, intense mixing for a home mixer is really just 7-8m in a KA mixer on speed 1.  This low hydration dough develops very quickly.  But then relaxes during fermentation, and the strength needs to be rebuilt, likely through sheeting. Again I honestly don't think it's sheeted once and into the pan but that's just my thoughts with layering dough at home.  Too many differences in the environments but dough is dough and should behave similarly from one environment to the next.

you should really try it again next time in nyc.  but i understand you're not necessarily trying to clone l&b, perfectly.  also there's something called memory bias.. you may actually have a style of crumb and crust you desire when making your sicilian squares and end up with a result that isn't l&b.  there's nothing strong about the dough in the numerous times i've eaten there.  little kids tear into it and eat it like white bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #358 on: May 24, 2016, 10:38:17 AM »
In one video, I think it was the owner?? that said they use SM tomatoes.  So they maybe cutting with a SM that they can get at a decent price.  He totally left out the fact that they use Saporito so I don't trust what he is saying 100%.  If he would have said we use a mix of SM tomatoes and California tomatoes then that would indicate a more truthful statement.  He doesn't have to say exactly what Stanilaus product, but just that they use California tomatoes with a wink would have been enough.  The fact that he left that out makes me question the use of SM altogether.   I think its an advertising thing.  Ppl like the way SM rolls off the tongue and gives the customers this sense that they are using the best ingredients available, when in fact it could be the opposite of that.  lol 

I would agree that the sweet flavor of the sauce and/or crust with the airy texture of the crumb is what sets it apart from other squares and makes their pie.  What is impressive to me is that soft texture without the pie tasting gummy.  Apparently some folks are getting some gummy squares.  Even in pictures, a lot of their whole cut pies look gummy, dense, and heavy.  But the actual texture as we know is anything but that.  That's the impressive part for me.  That you can eat 3 squares and not feel bloated or heavy. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 12:28:52 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #359 on: May 24, 2016, 10:38:54 AM »
We're also forgetting that L&B almost certainly uses the same dough for round pies, and their round slices do not have a texture indicative of a dairy additive.

Someone should try

F (100) All Trumps
W (55)
Oil (3)
Salt (2)
Sugar (5)
IDY (a good amount)

Mix intensely. Roll out into very lightly oiled sheet tray. Proof fully topped 3-5 hours in warm place.

Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #360 on: May 24, 2016, 10:57:24 AM »
In one video, I think it was the owner?? that said they use SM tomatoes.  So they maybe cutting with a SM that they can get at a decent price.  He totally left out the fact that they use Saporito so I don't trust what he is saying 100%.  If he would have said we use a mix of SM tomatoes and California tomatoes then that would indicate a more truthful statement.  He does have to say exactly what Stanilaus product, but just that they use California tomatoes with a wink would have been enough.  The fact that he left that out makes me question the use of SM altogether.   I think its an advertising thing.  Ppl like the way SM rolls off the tongue and gives the customers this sense that they are using the best ingredients available, when in fact it could be the opposite of that.  lol 

I would agree that the sweet flavor of the sauce and/or crust with the airy texture of the crumb is what sets it apart from other squares and makes their pie.  What is impressive to me is that soft texture without the pie tasting gummy.  Apparently some folks are getting some gummy squares.  Even in pictures, a lot of their whole cut pies look gummy, dense, and heavy.  But the actual texture as we know is anything but that.  That's the impressive part for me.  That you can eat 3 squares and not feel bloated or heavy.

just watched that aol video someone posted here.  at 12:15 http://on.aol.com/video/how-to-make-classic-pizza-241278573.

he says a spanish san marzano and a cali tomato.  which is consistent to my theory.  redorta is a mexican SM.  they are huge plums, very little water.  saporito is from modesto, california.

i think you will get a gummy pie on a bad day and/or traveling long distances with it and left in the box too long.  the steam collapses the crumb.  fresh out of the pan by slice, you shouldn't have any issues with that.

yeah i can eat 3 easy no problem.  they go down much easier than normal slices.  looks can be deceiving, which is why i don't trust pictures only.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #361 on: May 24, 2016, 12:30:41 PM »
We're also forgetting that L&B almost certainly uses the same dough for round pies, and their round slices do not have a texture indicative of a dairy additive.

Someone should try

F (100) All Trumps
W (55)
Oil (3)
Salt (2)
Sugar (5)
IDY (a good amount)

Mix intensely. Roll out into very lightly oiled sheet tray. Proof fully topped 3-5 hours in warm place.

I think that's too low for AT's.  It's been years though since I've used AT's.  Last i remember its quite a thirsty flour...For AT's I might shoot for the minimum of 60% hydration and even a few more points.   But yeah someone try it and let us know.   ^^^

I use a solid fat like crisco, butter, or coconut oil in the dough and going from 3 to 5%.  Might be different for oil so 3% is a good place to start. 


Offline hotsawce

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #362 on: May 24, 2016, 02:58:44 PM »
L&B uses campagna and sons in brooklyn for their pizza stuff. Margherita brand mozzarella. Stanislaus products. GM flour.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #363 on: May 25, 2016, 12:53:10 AM »
Tonight's bake was a combination of success and failure.  The fail part of the bake is that for some weird reason, the whole dough formed a HUGE bubble under the crust pushing the entire pizza to balloon up as it baked.  This pushed the sauce over the edge spilling into the oven and creating a smoky mess.  By the time I discovered this, I was already 9m into a 12min bake.  I let it finished baking and got a few crumb shots.   This is by far the closest to L&B's texture I've gotten.  I'm pretty sure I am there. 

A few thoughts.  IMO, It's not the dry milk that's responsible for the unique texture.  It's the increased fat content.  I used 2% dry milk in this formulation but will leave it out for the next bake to see the difference.  Definitely keeping the crisco at 5%.  I also used 4% sugar in the dough which gave it a slight sweetness.  Also for this dough I used 50/50 AP flour and HG.  So a flour more in line with a BF which I liked better than HG flour alone. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 01:00:00 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #364 on: May 26, 2016, 01:30:06 AM »
L&B probably uses a good amount of oil and a standard GM bread flour. Looks pretty close  :drool: especially the bottom crust. That drier, not oily but still sturdy deep golden brown

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #365 on: May 26, 2016, 11:35:27 AM »
Can someone take a few pics of their bottom crust next time you eat there?  I'd like to see what it looks like.

Offline norma427

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #366 on: May 26, 2016, 11:43:56 AM »
Can someone take a few pics of their bottom crust next time you eat there?  I'd like to see what it looks like.

Chau,

At Reply 6 is where I posted one photo of the bottom crust. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39324.msg392932#msg392932  I think there are some other photos on the other thread when we went on the pizza crawl with you.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #367 on: May 26, 2016, 12:29:58 PM »
Thank you very much Norma.  👍🏼

Offline norma427

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #368 on: May 26, 2016, 12:41:21 PM »
Chau,

The other photos that were taken by me at L&B start at Reply 247 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17885.msg175826#msg175826 There is a photo of the bottom crust on the next page.

Norma

Offline unclemilford

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #369 on: July 27, 2016, 12:58:42 PM »
This is awesome,

I just ate a slice. I am new to bread making so I am going to explain with very basic terms. There are no bubbles in the crust. It is like pretzel dough and very light. You can eat 4 pieces of L&B and not feel like you overdone it. It has a lemon taste or citrus taste to the crust, almost like spoiled milk gone right. I would love it if someone, after all of these posts, would post crust ingredients they believe are close. The sauce is relatively easy, the crust is very difficult. All of that said, best post I've seen on pizza making (taught me a lot) and you guys did amazing jobs creating great tasting pies. Thank you all! Hope that helps.

RC

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #370 on: Yesterday at 01:43:24 PM »
This is awesome,

I just ate a slice. I am new to bread making so I am going to explain with very basic terms. There are no bubbles in the crust. It is like pretzel dough and very light. You can eat 4 pieces of L&B and not feel like you overdone it. It has a lemon taste or citrus taste to the crust, almost like spoiled milk gone right. I would love it if someone, after all of these posts, would post crust ingredients they believe are close. The sauce is relatively easy, the crust is very difficult. All of that said, best post I've seen on pizza making (taught me a lot) and you guys did amazing jobs creating great tasting pies. Thank you all! Hope that helps.

RC

That "citrus" taste in the crust could be whey, the leftover liquid after separating the curds from milk when making cheese.  In a dough fermentation lactose in the whey would convert to lactic acid and produce a sour flavor or could be whey with citric acid added during the curd separation.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:04:14 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #371 on: Yesterday at 01:47:07 PM »
Also, i don't remember where i saw a clip of them loading a dough mixer, but i remember the dough having greenish hue when first adding the liquids.  It could very well be acid whey which is yellowish green. 

After a thorough mix, the color dilutes to the overall pale flour color of dough.


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:08:38 PM by HarryHaller73 »