Author Topic: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter  (Read 6601 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2012, 03:29:03 PM »
The formula changes didn't have a meaningful impact on my other calculations. It still looks like the formula will work pretty well for Ischia (assuming you are 62%HR +/- 2%, salt 2.7 +/- 3%) when the time change is less than 24 hours. I would not rely on the results for large changes in time such as 48 to 24 hours.

CL
Pizza is not bread.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 03:38:43 PM »
Craig,

Thanks for catching the errors. I was in the right church but in the wrong pew :-D. It looks like Damien pretty much got the right number, 10%. I wonder how he arrived at that number.

Peter


Online TXCraig1

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 03:42:45 PM »
It's right according to November's formula, but I would bet it's off by at least 150% in reality, and probably a lot more than that. I tend to doubt that you could put in enough Ischia for a 12 hour rise at 65F. I think you'd dissolve your dough first.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 06:20:00 PM »
It's right according to November's formula, but I would bet it's off by at least 150% in reality, and probably a lot more than that. I tend to doubt that you could put in enough Ischia for a 12 hour rise at 65F. I think you'd dissolve your dough first.


Craig,

I suspect that you are right. Several years ago, in 2006, I conducted an experiment, which is reported in Reply 96 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25896.html#msg25896, in which I made two identical dough balls, using 3.1% of an immature Ischia culture with an estimated hydration of around 62%. One of the dough balls was fermented at a room temperature of about 75 degrees F and the other dough ball was fermented in my wine unit at a temperature of around 60 degrees F (this was an estimate since the temperature control unit was an analog unit, since replaced with a digital one). Both dough balls were fermented for 12 hours.

I ran the above numbers through November's system and got a value of 7.44% as the amount of Ischia starter to use to get the dough fermented at 60 degrees F to double after 12 hours. That is more than double the 3.1% value mentioned above. You will note that I mentioned in Reply 96 that for every 15 degrees rise in temperature the rate of fermentation doubles. Some time later, November told me that that simplistic statement was not right. He set the record straight in Reply 53 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37297/topicseen.html#msg37297.

Peter

Offline Everlast

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 12:20:52 PM »
It's right according to November's formula, but I would bet it's off by at least 150% in reality, and probably a lot more than that. I tend to doubt that you could put in enough Ischia for a 12 hour rise at 65F. I think you'd dissolve your dough first.

CL

Craig, is this what you mean by dissolve your dough? This is the result of 2% Ischia starter at 65F for 36 hours. I then had it at about 80F for 8 hours, and then 84F for 2-3 hours. The dough was completely ruined. Even reballing it couldn't save it. I've never seen this before. What did I do wrong? Too high of a temp?

Peter, I used the 10% number from the guide to fermentation time at the very beginning of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 12:26:44 PM by Everlast »

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 12:28:37 PM »
wow,  that does look odd,  I ferment in a rubbermaid tub,  not in a box like you have.  Would appear that it over-fermented,  but instead of bubbling up through the top,  it just expanded "outwards" due to the lack of a sidewall restraint.   Looks like stretch marks on a multi-para womans belly   :)

Offline Everlast

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2012, 12:48:43 PM »
I was thinking it kind of looked like baked cookies. When I tried to work with the dough, it just tore into pieces.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 07:16:35 PM »
This is the result of 2% Ischia starter at 65F for 36 hours. I then had it at about 80F for 8 hours, and then 84F for 2-3 hours. The dough was completely ruined. Even reballing it couldn't save it. I've never seen this before. What did I do wrong? Too high of a temp?


Damian,

I would say that your dough was fatally overfermented, and was due primarily to the high temperatures and long fermentation times of the last two stages (80F for 8 hours and 84F for 2-3 hours). The cause of death most likely was the action of the protease enzymes (and acids and alcohol) to destroy the gluten structure. In the past, I have intentionally tried to destroy doughs through overfermentation in order to learn more about how that happens and to be able to identify the symptoms. I have done it with doughs leavened with commercial yeast and also by natural leavening systems. A couple places where I discussed what a severely overfermented dough looks and behaves like is at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3203.msg27125/topicseen.html#msg27125 and at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11989.msg112445/topicseen.html#msg112445.

Peter

Offline Everlast

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 08:06:00 PM »
Peter,

That seems to be exactly what happened. It was if the gluten structure just completely disappeared from the dough. Member Lido's dough looked very similar to mine and the accompanying descriptions of dough characteristics are identical. And yes, the flavor of the dough was actually pretty good for the 2 out of 4 pizzas that I was able to successfully launch into my WFO. It definitely ruined my night since it was the only dough I had on hand and I had already prepped some really nice ingredients for all 4 pizzas. However, I was able to re-appropriate some of the ingredients for the next morning - the fresh mozzarella, havarti, pancetta, brussel sprout, and roasted garlic omelette had my wife and I forgetting the night before.

I had no idea this sort of result was possible, but now that I do, I'll pay much more attention to time and temperature. It seems the learning curve for well-made dough using a starter is much greater than for using ADY. I'm 1 for 3 so far.

Thanks for enlightening me on this!

Damian

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Rough Guide to fermentation time using sourdough starter
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 06:53:08 PM »
Craig, is this what you mean by dissolve your dough? This is the result of 2% Ischia starter at 65F for 36 hours. I then had it at about 80F for 8 hours, and then 84F for 2-3 hours. The dough was completely ruined. Even reballing it couldn't save it. I've never seen this before. What did I do wrong? Too high of a temp?


Yes, sort-of. I agree with Peter's assessment of the cause of your break down. I was referring to a similar phenomenon - if you add enough of a enzymatically active (and to a lesser extent acidic) starter, you can actually break down the gluten in your dough right from the get go. When making a dough with my SF starter, if you get much over 25% culture, the dough will never even form a ball in the mixer. It just turns to slop right there. Ischia is not far behind.

I have baked dough that look like yours. It has happened a couple times when I was trying to make very sour bread. The loves looked awful and were generally dense, but they had a lot of flavor.

CL
Pizza is not bread.


 

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