First attempt - Good except too soft, not enough chew

[JWK1]

Hey All,  I tried my first NY style pizza tonight.  I used KABF, water at 62%, salt 1.5%, Olive Oil 1.0% and one tsp. of IDY.  Total dough weight was about 44 oz.  Mixed it up in an Electrolux (probably do it by hand next time) and split it into two balls with oiled hands, into plastic freezer bags and into the fridge.

The dough really spread out in the bags which were flat on the bottom shelf, but they proofed up nice.  They had about 24 hours in the fridge.  When I took them out tonight and let them come to room temperature (hey it was 83 degrees here today!), they were spread out about 8" and took very little effort to spread them on the pans into 14" circles.  Oven at 515 degrees, pies cooked up great in 10 - 11 minutes.  Nice browning with a hint of char on the bottom and great oven spring.

My family loved them, but I was disappointed in the lack of chew.  I don't like soft, bready pizza crust.  I like puffy and chewy.  Now this was an improvement over my last attempt (which was before I found this forum), which was REALLY soft and bready.  Yuch.  I would say tonight I was about halfway there.

OK, so what do I need to do to get to the puffy and chewy?  What am I doing wrong?  Not kneading enough?  Need a higher strength flour like KASL?  I suspect it's technique and not flour.

Please help!

Great forum.

[David Deas]

You're going to get a lot of different suggestions, but at those sorts of temperatures I would definitely go with a stronger flour.

[The Dough Doctor]

For a New York style pizza you're going to want to use a very high protein content flour. Look for something in the 13 to 14% protein range. For N.Y style pizzas I normally use a dough factor of 0.10619 which is to say that I use 0.10619-ounces of dough per square inch of surface area. This translates out to 16.35-ounces for a 14-inch pizza (154 X 0.10619 = 16.35-ounces) so you might want to consider increasing the dough weight by a couple ounces. The additional dough may help you achieve the porosity you want while the high protein content of the flour should provide the chewiness. Be careful when mixing the dough, all you want is to have the dough mixed until it comes smooth, mixing beyond this will only contribute more of a bread like crumb structure to the finished crust. My rule when mixing pizza dough is to always err on the side of under mixing the dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[JWK1]

For a New York style pizza you're going to want to use a very high protein content flour. Look for something in the 13 to 14% protein range. For N.Y style pizzas I normally use a dough factor of 0.10619 which is to say that I use 0.10619-ounces of dough per square inch of surface area. This translates out to 16.35-ounces for a 14-inch pizza (154 X 0.10619 = 16.35-ounces) so you might want to consider increasing the dough weight by a couple ounces. The additional dough may help you achieve the porosity you want while the high protein content of the flour should provide the chewiness. Be careful when mixing the dough, all you want is to have the dough mixed until it comes smooth, mixing beyond this will only contribute more of a bread like crumb structure to the finished crust. My rule when mixing pizza dough is to always err on the side of under mixing the dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom, thank you so much for the info and advice.  That really helps a lot and explains my results.  I'll find that ratio useful as I do change the size of my pies depending on who is home.

I will be getting a 50 lb. sack of KASL, which as almost everyone here knows is rated at 14.2% protein.  Can you give me a recommendation on hydration for this flour?  I know I will have to go higher than 62% when going to the KASL from the KABF.  Beyond this, what are the general results as you continue to increase the hydration of the dough?

[scott r]

KABF can give you what you want...I swear!    try mixing longer!     

[AimlessRyan]

I will be getting a 50 lb. sack of KASL, which as almost everyone here knows is rated at 14.2% protein.  Can you give me a recommendation on hydration for this flour?  I know I will have to go higher than 62% when going to the KASL from the KABF.  Beyond this, what are the general results as you continue to increase the hydration of the dough?

Just experiment; don't be afraid. You'll learn a ton more by trying new things than you could ever learn by being told the "answers." These boards didn't exist when I started making pizza, and I'm glad they didn't exist because it forced me to learn almost entirely through trial and error (over a much longer period of time than it's gonna take you). When you learn that way, it becomes knowledge, not just information.

Although most people on these boards seem to prefer higher hydration (60-70%), I like the hydration of my NY dough to be lower than 60% (using All Trumps), and a lot of observation has told me that's the norm at slice joints in NYC.

I'm not saying don't ask questions. I'm just saying don't be afraid to try new things. Don't be afraid to let your dough be your teacher.

[David Deas]

I agree.  Street slices definitely tend to be on the lower end in terms of hydration.

[JWK1]

The problem is, for me, a frame of reference.  I don't know what a "street slice" is really like.  I grew up in western New York.  The crust is quite varied there.  Some I like, some not so much, some I love.  The crust that I love is puffy, moist and chewy.  It is NOT leathery.  I don't know how to get there, but I'm willing to put in the effort.

I thank everyone for the info and advice.

[atom]

What part of WNY are you from? I am from Olean. Pizza in our region is like NYC style pizza on steroids. The crust is thicker and the cheese is much more plentiful. The sauce is usually quite different then NYC style however. Pizza joints tend to use a blend of Mozz and Provolone on their pies. Take that oil out of your recipe, it adds to the softness and masks the flavor of the dough.

Here is my recipe (still in works):
KABF 100%
Water 60%
IDY .3%
Salt 3%
Sugar 1% (I need it for the browning)

(http://s17.postimage.org/jihhe46tb/pizza.gif)

[JWK1]

Atom, I grew up outside of Buffalo in Orchard Park.  That's where Rich Stadium is for those football fans.  I will try your suggestion of leaving out the OO.  I'm getting KASL, so I'll start with 60% hydration.  Some people are claiming you lose the chew when the dough is too hydrated.  It seems they keep it a bit under 60% with normal bread flour, so I'll just start with 60% and see what I get.