Author Topic: So much to learn...  (Read 6314 times)

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Offline bakeshack

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 10:05:16 PM »
The dough was made as follows:

Caputo Pizzeria 100%
Water 60%
Salt 2.8%
Starter culture 3%

Dissolved culture in the water.  Add half of the flour then mixed by hand until incorporated.  Added the remaining flour 1/2 cup at a time until everything has been incorporated.  Rest for 20-30 mins.  Add salt, mix then knead by hand for 4-5 mins.  Rest the dough for 15-20 mins.  Perform S&F (1 full turn), rest again for 20 mins, S&F again then bulk ferment.

Bulk ferment at RT (60-65F) for 24 hours, divide and ball then final rise for another 8-12 hrs at RT.  Dough will not gain too much volume but will be very soft yet strong enough.

Marlon


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2012, 06:51:53 PM »
It is my understanding that as the yeast consume the starch (sugar) in the flour, they produce carbon dioxide, H2O, and eventually ethanol.  By lowering the amount of yeast in a formula, we can slow the process so it extends over a greater period of time.  Allowing for this, we develop the flavor profile we are seeking.  I'm not sure, however, where sugar would be produced?  The longer the dough ferments, the longer the yeast are feasting, the less sugar will remain in the overall dough... that's always been my assumption. The amount of sugar in the final product will have an effect on browning, therefore, if I want MORE sugar in the dough, I can either lower the amount of yeast or decrease the amount of time they are able to consume starch... is my rationale off??

Grazie,
Salvatore

Salvatore, I agree with what the others have said on the matter of yeast and sugar depletion. Member pizzanapoletana (Marco) once said that it would take around 5% yeast to exhaust the natural sugars in a dough, as I noted in the last paragraph of Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg34547.html#msg34547. Also, I learned from personal experience that it is possible to make and cold ferment a dough with no added sugar but with a small amount of yeast for a period in excess of 20 days (I once made it out to 23 days) and still get a pizza with a finished crust with color and sweetness. For an example of a 10+day cold fermented dough and the pizza made from it, see Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. Other examples are cited in the post at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11344.msg106401/topicseen.html#msg106401.

Peter

Dear Salvatore and Peter, since I had to go away last Friday to Sunday, I decided to do the following experiment, for whatever it is worth, in the spirit of Peter's above-referenced post. Last Thursday, I prepared the following dough:
____________________________________________________________________________
Flour: 1000 gr. Caputo Pizzeria (Datum Point)
Water: 645 gr. (64.5%)
Sea Salt: 30 gr. (3.0%)
Crisceto: 32.30 gr. (5.0%)
____________________________________________________________________________
Direct Method: Water ➡ Salt ➡ Crisceto ➡ Flour = Pasta (75.9° F)
Mix & knead time (using Santos fork mixer): 3 Minutes & 45 Seconds  
____________________________________________________________________________
1st Fermentation (in mass): 14 hours at room temperature 71-74° F
2nd Fermentation (in balls): 101 hours in the marble chamber (below the house) 43-56° F
____________________________________________________________________________
Modified Home Gas Oven Temperature: 871° F (floor)
____________________________________________________________________________

Please, notice that I purposefully let the first fermentation to go on longer than my current practice in order to boost the fermentative activities. For the sake of this experiment, I even heated all the water to 77° F. Before departure, I placed the dough balls inside the marble chamber, in the one below the house, and let them stay there until an hour ago. After an hour, I baked the following pizza, below.

Dear Salvatore, you are making great progress; I think you are on the right path. Your gas oven is definitely an obstacle to overcome. Good day gentlemen!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2012, 07:03:23 PM »
Omid,

The timing of your experiment is perfect, for as I was out running last night I decided this week I would perform a similar test.  I decided I would make three batches of dough, ferment them all for approx. 6 hours at room temp, then ball them and let them proof for 12, 24, and 36 hours, respectively.  I would then bake them and see the differences. 

Your experiment exacerbates my frustrations, unfortunately, because I was starting to become convinced the lack of top-color on my baked dough was a result of fermentation time.  How else could I explain such a great taste, texture, and bottom color, all in the absence of only the top-color?  Now, it seems clearer to me that the culprit is none other than suspect #1:  the oven! 

Thank you for the motivation... I will achieve the desired outcome!

Buona sera,
Salvatore

Offline johnamus

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2012, 10:24:04 PM »
Omid,

Like always your pizza is stunning... the pizza face that launched a thousand imitators :P.  Pizza appears to be your calling on this earth, have you found anyone who would be able to hire you as pizzaiolo?

-John

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2012, 04:21:08 AM »
Omid,

Like always your pizza is stunning... the pizza face that launched a thousand imitators :P.  Pizza appears to be your calling on this earth, have you found anyone who would be able to hire you as pizzaiolo?

-John

Dear John, I thank you very much for your generous compliment! As to finding employment, I am still working on it. Have a beautiful day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2012, 07:10:53 PM »
Omid,

The timing of your experiment is perfect, for as I was out running last night I decided this week I would perform a similar test.  I decided I would make three batches of dough, ferment them all for approx. 6 hours at room temp, then ball them and let them proof for 12, 24, and 36 hours, respectively.  I would then bake them and see the differences.  

Your experiment exacerbates my frustrations, unfortunately, because I was starting to become convinced the lack of top-color on my baked dough was a result of fermentation time.  How else could I explain such a great taste, texture, and bottom color, all in the absence of only the top-color?  Now, it seems clearer to me that the culprit is none other than suspect #1:  the oven!  

Thank you for the motivation... I will achieve the desired outcome!

Buona sera,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, about an hour ago, I baked the two pizzas, below, in my home gas oven, using the same dough as in Reply #41 above. The dough balls were 6 days old, kept under the same range of temperatures, but in the lower spectrum, in the marble chamber. The dough balls were extremely difficult to work with. I could clearly see that the gluten in the dough balls were being compromised! Have a great day!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 07:16:25 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2012, 08:59:51 PM »
Omid,

Thank you so much.  I think you've essentially dispelled any notion I might have had that the issues regarding color could have been fermentation related.  Now, I can focus solely on my oven.

Grazie a Lei,
Salvatore
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 10:34:54 PM by salvatoregianpaolo »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2012, 08:49:29 PM »
Tonight I switched my stone placement around.  I've been so happy with the performance of my soapstone from a heat-retention and bottom-bake perspective, I never imagined it might have been causing the lack of coloration on the top of the pizza. I was beginning to think, however, perhaps I had it made too large, and in essence it was restricting convection.  So, instead of baking on it, I placed it above an old stone I have to act as a ceiling.  Worth a shot, right?

Baking stone temp:
60min - 730deg
75min - 733deg (floor of oven - 870deg)

I decided to go ahead and bake after 90min, and you can see the results below.  It was a drastic improvement!  I probably could have let it go another 30min, and that's probably how I'll proceed next.  I'm also condsidering dropping the lower stone all the way down to the floor of the oven. 

Cook time was a touch longer than I wanted (2min), and the suppleness of the pizza suffered ever-so-slightly because of it.  Still, it turned out to be quite tender with just a nice bite to the cornicione.  More importantly... finally some color.  Not enough, but it was definitely an improvement.  And, as it has been this whole time, the taste was excellent. 

I'm also very happy with the latest mozzarella I've been using.  It is Letizia Mozzarella di Bufala.  The texture is very nice and it has just a slight "tang" to it.  This pie was also dressed with hot cherry peppers and a few slices of finocchiona.   

Dough:
60% H2O
3% Salt
1.7% Lievito Madre

H2O, salt added, lievito added, 1/2 flour added, remaining flour added slowly as dough brought to point-of-pasta. 
Quick hand knead, then 10min Rest
Quick hand knead, then dough bulk fermented @ 72deg for 3 hours
Dough balled and proofed @72deg for 24 hours
Shaped, dressed, and baked

Grazie per leggendo,
Salvatore

scott123

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 04:42:30 PM »
Salvatore, if you're willing to push the lower portion of your oven to 730, then my suggestion is to use a trick and heat the whole oven to 730.  With the entire oven at 730, you can remove the soapstone ceiling and use the broiler during the bake (with the hearth in close proximity like it was before).  The additional heat from the 730ish ceiling, combined with the broiler, isn't going to be dramatic, but it will be a step up from where you were before and it will give you some leoparding.

If you're feeling adventurous, you can push the pre-heat temp even higher and bolster top browning even more if you go with a less conductive stone- such as quarry tiles or even one of those incredibly cheap walmart stones.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2012, 04:55:17 PM »
Scott,

Thanks.  To get the entire oven to that temperature, however, wouldn't that require shielding the thermostat somehow? 

Salvatore


scott123

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
Salvatore, yes, that's what I'm talking about.  You're shielding the thermostat now, with all the stones at the bottom. What I'm proposing is some sort of thermostat sleeve that take's it out of the picture- like the frozen towel that Marlon is using or an insulating firebrick with a hole drilled in it.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2012, 07:35:06 PM »
Made a few changes tonight:  one minor and one major. 

I added some aluminum foil on the front of my setup, leaving just enough space to load the pizza.  The difference seemed small, but proved monumental.  The temperature on the baking stone was 775deg @ 60min, and 817deg @ 75min.  I decided to load the first pizza at this point, although I know the temperature could have gone much higher since the oven had only "registered" 530 out of a possible 550.  I went ahead with the bake because frankly this is the highest temperature I've seen so far, and in all honesty was a touch nervous. 

The second change was regarding my Ischia starter.  I felt it was possibly too acidic, which after much research I've come to understand can affect crust color.  I not only was having trouble with pizza coloration, but also with my baguettes.  That is what actually convinced me it wasn't completely a temperature problem.  I took a small amount of my starter, "cleaned" it, and then decided to go out on a limb and begin refreshing the new batch with AP flour instead of 00.  After two days, the difference between the culture fed with AP vs. 00 is astounding!  (I will continue feeding both and monitor the differences)  I baked bread yesterday with fantastic results, and then made my pizza dough with the AP culture, as well.

The dough handled much, much better than I had anticipated.  It had so much more strength, to the point my wife was watching me shape the pizza and she remarked, "Wow, that looks different!  It seems much easier to work with!"  (BTW, how great is it when you find out they ACTUALLY pay attention!)  The bake turned out well.  Great taste, texture, and I'm very happy with the results.  As far as oven setup, I need to learn the hotspots, and I'm also considering having a smaller soapstone cut to take the place as my bottom baking stone. 

Grazie per leggendo!
Salvatore

Offline wheelman

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2012, 11:53:56 PM »
Nice work Salvatore! I always feed my iscia starter with AP flour. It seems to like KA the best.
Bill

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2012, 12:42:52 PM »
Thanks Bill.  I expected some difference, but nothing close to what I've seen... or smelled.  The AP seems to create a milder, sweeter aroma, and definitely more "lift."  You can really smell the yeast at work and the alcohol by-product.  With the 00 flour, the starter leans more in the direction of sour.  I think I may go completely with AP for now since trying to maintain both is a bit of a pain.  Then I can try the occasional addition of 00 to bring in some more tang when necessary.

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2012, 01:18:53 AM »
Made a few changes tonight

Dear Salvatore, thank you for the nice pizza and the bonus: the baguettes. Both you and dear Bill (Wheelman) bake great baguettes. If you were my neighbor, one of those baguettes would have ended up on my table, plus whatever brie I could find inside your refrigerator! Good night.

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2012, 09:31:22 AM »
Gentile Omid,

Of course!  I am constantly giving bread away.  I derive great pleasure from baking it, but could never have enough room to store it all.  I typically freeze a few loaves, but it is never quite the same as the day it is made. 

After the pizza we enjoyed some of my homemade gelato.  I am working hard at perfecting my recipe, and can proudly state I am very close!  I am fortunate to have a tremendous love of baking, therefore I produce all of my desserts by hand.  Tonight is rice pudding, tomorrow Brown-Butter Pecan Tart!

Salvatore

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2012, 06:06:06 PM »
Well, I feel as though an anchor has been lifted from around my neck.  I decided to stop focusing on the top-coloration of my pizza, and instead to concentrate on texture and taste.  In order to accomplish this, I felt it was necessary to keep my bake inside of the 90 second window.  Tonight, I forced myself to pull both pies out after only 75 seconds.  The results were outstanding!  By far, these were the pies most representative of what I experienced in Napoli.  The color, obviously, was not apparent on the top.  The flavor, however, was wonderful.  The tomatoes just seem to "pop" when the bake time is so short.  As for the texture, I hope you can see from the photos exactly how supple and light it was.  I could not have lifted slices of this pizza, because they would have literally fell apart. 

I have come to the conclusion for my setup, this is perhaps the best I can do.  Both pies were baked @830degrees in 75 seconds.  (Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of pie #1 Margherita.)

Grazie,
Salvatore


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2012, 05:46:28 PM »
Suppose you had a pizza that was what you were looking for in every way except that the top coloration was too light. Could you not use a handheld propane torch to quickly brown the cornice much like you would caramelize creme brulee?

Just a thought.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2012, 07:56:12 PM »

You and I are a lot alike.

CL

Believe me... the thought has crossed my mind!!

Ultimately, that is the issue at hand.  I don't believe I would change anything else about the pizza except to include some leopard spots.  Everytime I go back and look at the last two pictures I posted of the underside I'm very satisfied. 

We will be moving at the end of the year, and I'm hoping it will be somewhere semi-permanent where I could seriously consider installing a wfo.  In the meantime, I need to befriend someone the way Omid has so I can try my dough in their oven!!

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline toddster63

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2012, 08:33:29 PM »
Suppose you had a pizza that was what you were looking for in every way except that the top coloration was too light. Could you not use a handheld propane torch to quickly brown the cornice much like you would caramelize creme brulee?

Just a thought.

Craig

I'm with Craig here... This is what I did when I cooked with my modded Deni 2100 that could get my stone to 900F. Top coloration was always an issue I fought, like Salvatore. A blowtorch from the hardware store, that uses disposable fuel canisters, solved my problems.

Below are two pics—the pale pie as it came out of the my little Deni oven, and another pie with my "retouching" done with the torch.

'Nuff said? Get a torch and don't look back, unless you want to construct a LBE, which I hightly recommend—LOVE mine...

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:35:12 PM by toddster63 »


 

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