Author Topic: Finest Pizza Sauce Yet (Read 14031 times)

BIG Daddy · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2005, 09:45:12 PM »

Hello Pftaylor;
Your sauce picture does look as if it could, indeed, be the finest pizza sauce yet. I went to the santasweet website and started to purchase a "6 pack", but thought I would first ask if you were formula specific with your number of tomatoes and various spices and if you were, would you share those specific amounts? The reason I ask is that these tomatoes are relatively expensive to make a sauce from and not be happy with the results. Thanks much...

BIG Daddy

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2005, 10:21:17 PM »

BIG Daddy,

FYI, the chopped tomato sauce I made used 3 tomatoes for 2 12" pies.

Bill/SFNM

scott r · « **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2005, 12:22:13 AM »

Hi everyone, I just wanted anyone in the New England area know that Stop in Shop is carrying the uglyripes, and they are even on sale this week. Can't wait for pizza tomorrow PFT, THANKS!

pftaylor · « **Reply #23 on:** September 24, 2005, 07:22:15 AM »

BIG Daddy,
It takes a tough man to make a tender sauce.

I'm more of a "feel player" when it comes to preparing sauce. So I don't have a formula to go by. I just used the Kitchen Aid Immersion Hand Mixer to chop up the Ugly Ripes and then I seasoned them to taste with basil, oregano, black pepper, and salt. I'm not saying that I have perfected the seasoning blend (as of yet) but the base tomato will be the Ugly Ripe until I encounter another which can surpass it. As of this moment, no other tomato is close in my opinion.

scott r,
I trust we can all look forward to the courtesy of a comparative review against your current sauce.

Bill/SFNM,
I would be interested if you could share in how the ugly ripe sauce compared with your home-grown San Marzano sauce. All I know is that the Ugly Ripe sauce flat out kills any canned product I have ever tasted. San Marzano or not.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2005, 09:10:33 AM »

Quote from: pftaylor on September 24, 2005, 07:22:15 AM

I would be interested if you could share in how the ugly ripe sauce compared with your home-grown San Marzano sauce. All I know is that the Ugly Ripe sauce flat out kills any canned product I have ever tasted. San Marzano or not.

pftaylor:

While testing the ugly ripe sauce as I was chopping and seasoning it, I thought it did not have quite the complexity and sweetness of freshly plucked tomatoes. However, after tasting it on a baked pie, I would be hard-pressed to identify any difference. The San Marzanos are meatier and have less juice than the ugly ripes, but that did not seem to effect the taste. I did drain the ugly ripe sauce a little by using a slotted spoon to apply it.

Bill/SFNM

BIG Daddy · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2005, 12:42:14 PM »

pftaylor;
Thanks for the quick response. I will go ahead and order the uglyripes (if the hurricane has not closed them down) and "spice them up". I will let you know the results.
BIG Daddy

pftaylor · « **Reply #26 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:04:14 AM »

Bill/SFNM,
Based on your observations and mine, Ugly Ripes, can produce a sauce which easily exceeds any canned-based tomato product including the bottom-of-the-barrel San Marzanos which are unfortunately exported and generally available here in the US. I would have to experiment with growing my own garden fresh tomatoes to determine the slight difference you detected. All I know is that Ugly Ripes gush with a taste of freshness which elevates Pizza Raquel and Sophia.

The bottom line is that if you could not detect a taste difference (in the final product) between just-picked tomatoes and Ugly Ripes, then perhaps we have reached a point of deteriorating returns. If so, that level of accomplishment is good enough for me.

scott r · « **Reply #27 on:** September 26, 2005, 11:16:07 AM »

The uglyripes were the sweetest of the three types of high end tomatoes I tried this weekend. Great tip pft!

pftaylor · « **Reply #28 on:** September 26, 2005, 02:00:09 PM »

scott r,
Thanks for your feedback. Did you grind them up with an immersion mixer or another means? Also, did you peel them first?

I used to use an old fashioned beater type mixer which didn't seem to grind them into the proper consistency. Consistency seems to play a role into the whole flavor equation as well. The small number of Ugly Ripes I've experimented with were not overly juicy but produced a very thick consistency bursting with flavor.

scott r · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2005, 04:38:28 PM »

PFT, in addition to the uglyripes having the sweetest flavor, they also contained less moisture than the other types of tomatoes I tried. The first thing I did was to remove the peels from all the tomatoes. I brought a pot of water to boil, and dropped each tomato in the boiling water for a few seconds. Right from the boiling water I dropped them into ice water and the peels came right off. I have been doing this for years to make fresh sauce during tomato season, and I do find the sauce to taste better and have a better consistency without the peel.

The first thing I tried was your technique of not cooking the immersion mixer pureed tomatoes. While this did taste great, it was too soupy on top of the pie for my tastes. Over a very low flame I reduced the tomato puree by about 1/2 and the flavors jumped out even more. While I am usually not an advocate of cooked sauces on pizza, this really did seem to help with the fresh tomatoes.

pftaylor · « **Reply #30 on:** September 26, 2005, 05:49:24 PM »

scott r,
Thanks for sharing your sauce preparation procedure. The more I learn about tomatoes the more I find out just how much I don't know. I never would have thought of trying the procedure you have outlined. I bet it tastes great.

One question about the increased flavor you mentioned; is the fresh taste still present or is it akin to a more seasoned pasta sauce? I am looking to maximize the freshness quotent as much as possible.

scott r · « **Reply #31 on:** September 26, 2005, 07:48:27 PM »

As long as you do the reduction slowly you should still retain the fresh flavor.

I do want to add that the pictures of your uglyripes, or maybe they were the ones from the Santa Sweet website, look better than the ones I found. Mine were fairly pale, and did not have the vibrant red color. It could be that your tomatoes are better, and do not need the concentration that I felt was necessary.

LeeB · « **Reply #32 on:** September 28, 2005, 01:49:00 PM »

Has anyone tried some Roma tomatos from your local supermarket? A Roma is a pretty meaty type tomato that wouldn't exhibit as much liquid as some of the others.

scott r · « **Reply #33 on:** September 28, 2005, 03:13:57 PM »

lee, I did try the uglyripes along with some organically grown romas, and some of the cluster on the vine tomatoes. Although the cluster vine tomatoes were by far the most perfect looking, they did not have the meaty quality of the romas or the uglyripes. The romas were close to the quality of the uglyripes as far as texture goes, but the uglyripes did have a sweeter flavor that I prefer. If you live in an area where you can not get the uglyripes at your market, some good romas with a dash of sugar will get you very close.

Les · « **Reply #34 on:** September 28, 2005, 05:18:27 PM »

Quote from: pftaylor on September 24, 2005, 07:22:15 AM

. . . the base tomato will be the Ugly Ripe until I encounter another which can surpass it. As of this moment, no other tomato is close in my opinion.

Just to offer my little contribution in case you didn't see my thread . . . you might try the grape tomatoes (the ones pictured seem to be from the same company as the ugly ripes), and/or the recipe for the sauce here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html

The grapes are very meaty, the sweetest commercially available tomato I've tasted, available year 'round, and growing in popularity by leaps and bounds (i.e., which means the price should keep dropping).

pftaylor · « **Reply #35 on:** February 06, 2006, 09:39:25 PM »

In my continuing effort to produce the finest pie I am capable of, the last major category yielding significant improvement has been the sauce. The level of improvement in this category has transcended my expectations and has extended beyond it borders into the other two big parts of a pizza - crust and cheese.

To recap the history of my sauce experimentation is like taking a final exam. I tried every tactic known to me to score. Here it is in all it's painful glory;
1) I started out with various jars of spaghetti sauce and spiced them well.
2) Then moved on to jars of Italian sounding pizza sauces from American companies from my local supermarket and spiced them well.
3) Then moved on to a variety of crushed American canned tomatoes and spiced them well.
4) Then moved on to a variety of expensive American San Marzano Whole canned tomatoes and spiced them well.
5) Then moved on to a variety of more expensive Italian San Marzano Whole canned tomatoes and spiced them well.
6) Then moved on to a variety of even more expensive DOP certified Italian San Marzano canned tomatoes and spiced them well.
7) Then moved on to a slugo can of Contindina Whole tomatoes from Sam's Club and spiced them well.
8) Then moved on to fresh tomatoes from my local supermarket and spiced them well.
9) Then moved on to Fresh Ugly Ripe tomatoes and spiced them well.
10) Finally, after months of trying to overcome my Virginia public school education induced "thinking between the lines," I broke the chain of failure and ventured out into using only pure Ugly Ripe tomatoes.

Notice a trend here? I sure didn't until I got to number 10. That's when I stopped using spices IN my sauce and started using them ON my sauce. A very slight change which has brought about a huge improvement to the taste of Pizza Raquel and Sophia.

I can now taste fresh tomatoes.

The delicate balance of crust, sauce, and cheese now exists in perfect harmony. Don't get me wrong, I love spices like basil, oregano, salt, pepper, and garlic. But I have proven to myself that they actually taste better on the pizza and not in it.

Your mileage may vary but I'm not going back.

foodblogger · « **Reply #36 on:** February 07, 2006, 07:22:33 AM »

I went through a similar evolution in my thinking towards pizza. Something that is easy to forget is that Pizza Napoletana is made with pizza ingredients that are EASILY AVAILABLE to the average Neapolitan. In the same way, Mexican food is made from oftentimes seasonal ingredients that are EASILY AVAILABLE to the average Mexican. I used to go to huge amounts of trouble to get specialty imported tomatoes, flours etc. when making my pizzas. I have come to the conclusion that I was acting in a 'grass is always greener' mode. I like a challenge. Part of the reason I like pizza is because it is a challenging art to master. Now, instead of focusing on the challenge to get DOC approved San Marzano tomatoes or Caputo 00 flour, I am focusing on the challenge of making an incredible pizza that is from ingredients that are easily available to me. I have enough faith in the art and process of pizza making to say that (with time) I can make a pizza - with quality ingredients that are easily available to me - that will stand up to any pizza made anywhere in the world. Food for thought anyway.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #37 on:** February 07, 2006, 09:40:44 AM »

foodblogger,

The "easily available" standard you set can be difficult to implement. Where I live in the Dallas Metroplex, "easily available" is tantamount to almost nothing. We don't have 6-in-1 tomatoes, Stanislaus tomatoes, Ugly tomatoes, or San Marzano tomatoes (the real ones, not the fake U.S. equivalents). The Muir Glens are available, but not all places locally carry them. Tomatoes are not indigenous to Texas, so trying to grow them when the temperature is over 90 degrees F a good part of the growing season is a most challenging exercise to say the least. The best I can do for fresh tomatoes is to go to the Dallas Farmers Market in season where some hardy East Texas farmers have risen to the challenge of dealing with the inhospitable Texas growing environment.

We also don't have Grande cheeses, Polly-O or any of the other high-quality pizza cheeses used by many of our members, and those that are available, such as fresh mozzarella and imported buffalo mozzarella cheeses, are not really readily available and come at a very steep price. The only processed whole-milk mozzarella cheese I have been able to find to date, after looking at every food store I have been in, is the WalMart store brand, and it is not comparable quality-wise to what I have been able to find outside of Texas.

Perhaps the best flour for pizza that is available at the retail level is the King Arthur bread flour but, even there, very few places in the Dallas Metroplex carry it. I was fortunate to be able to locate an inexpensive source of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, from a local distributor, but that came only after a long time searching. That was a crowning moment for me. But just about the only one.

I would say that "easily available" as far as flours is concerned means all-purpose flour where I live. That flour is fine for deep-dish doughs and for some cracker type and American style doughs, but I have found it wanting as far as the NY style is concerned. I know there will be some howls of protest, and I will concede that there are perhaps some of our members who have high-temperature ovens and can make a decent NY style using all-purpose flour, but I have never been able to use that flour with my standard home oven to achieve comparable results to using high-gluten flour. Bread flour can come reasonably close, and if used with vital wheat gluten, arguably come even closer. The closest I was able to come to a NY style result with all-purpose flour was a combination of all-purpose flour, vital wheat gluten, and dried dairy whey. It was good, but not as good IMHO as using high-gluten flour. One has to try high-gluten flour to understand what I am saying.

I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes you don't have a choice but to hunt down the best ingredients. Otherwise, you end up with mediocrity.

Peter

foodblogger · « **Reply #38 on:** February 07, 2006, 10:39:49 AM »

Pete,
Dallas and Texas in general are very different from where I live. I live in K.C. and what is readily available to me might be your impossible to get. In 4 months I have to move to Louisville Kentucky for a fellowship and I have no idea what is in the stores there. I used to live in the middle of nowhere in Iowa so I am used to working with substitutions. I am by no means advocating my own personal 'readily available' standard for anyone else, it is just something to think about. I sometimes find myself pining away for something that is difficult to get. I wonder how much of the satisfaction I have had with certain ingredients is do to the rarity rather than the actual taste. Its like the whole Kona coffee thing. I love Kona coffee but part of the reason I love it is that there is only so much of it every year and getting ahold of the real thing is a struggle. I often wonder if very many people could tell the difference between Kona and another high quality bean. I can't swear that if you gave me 5 cups of coffee, one being Kona, that I could pick the Kona. But I'll also admit that drinking Kona, and knowing that I am drinking something that only a few people can get gives me great pleasure.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #39 on:** February 07, 2006, 12:36:56 PM »

foodblogger,

Since Dallas is the ninth-largest city in the country, you'd think that it would have all the best pizza ingredients. KC is in the 38th spot according to recent data. Even some staple items are getting hard to find. For example, the places around me have stopped stocking the little cubes of cake yeast, and some have stopped selling basic mozzarella cheese in the deli sections (and some never did to begin with). Everything now comes sliced and packaged in plastic and sold elsewhere in the stores. It would be one thing if there were a lot of specialty Italian food stores, but I haven't been able to find any around Dallas. Even at the lowest of the low end--the little pouches and boxes of pre-mix pizza dough ingredients sold in the supermarkets--are not to be found, except maybe for a Chef Boyardee product here and there. It looks like no one in the Dallas area makes pizzas of any kind at home, from scratch or even from pre-mixes.

Peter