Author Topic: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO  (Read 20361 times)

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Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2012, 09:29:07 AM »
Thanks Craig, I have a long ways to go though. The cheese is bel gioioso cut with an egg slicer. I use it mainly because it is widely available. The sauce is made with 6 in 1. I look forward to focusing more on ingredients and dough making as I finish building the oven!
Michael


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2012, 09:46:30 AM »
Sometime you might try cutting it a little thicker and maybe not whole slices - more like cubes and rectangles - and maybe 2X as thick as the egg slicer is cutting it. This should help stop the cheese from breaking down as much on the pie as it bakes.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2012, 10:04:46 AM »
Michael,
How is the taste of the bel gioioso, I also see that alot at the stores I go to...good price.

Craig,
He is very close isn't he....a bit more top convection to get closer to your pies? The heat number seems to be there,no?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »
It is funny I bought the bel gioioso and another store brand for my last bake and was pleasantly surprise at the superior taste of the gioioso raw. It has a good milk flavor. The other cheese was very bland. As far as cooked goes I am undecided. I appreciate Craig's advice and completely agree that I need bigger sized chunks of cheese to avoid too much break down. Sometimes the cheese feels too rubbery when I leave it larger though. That may be because I need to use a fresher softer more local cheese.

For my next bake I definitely need the oven a bit hotter. Just didn't preheat it long or hot enough, never pays to be in a rush, someday I will learn. Next time I will shoot for at least a 4-5 hour preheat. Need the floor 900F instead of 800F. The ceiling is tough to know because my thermometer only goes to 1000F but I assume in that environment if the floor is hotter the ceiling will be too. I don't think it truly reached equilibrium last time. I should get better airflow next time too as after many phone calls and a long drive ahead I have located the 4.5 by 8.5 by 24 inch clay flue liner and a 50lb bag of caputo pizzeria. :P.
Michael

Offline scott123

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2012, 12:05:02 AM »
YES!!!!  ;D

Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2012, 03:08:03 PM »
Finally was able to pick up my chimney and a bag of Caputo. Chimney fit perfectly into place. Great idea Scott! Tomorrow doing a bake with the new chimney and Craig's workflow. Tried his recipe with 0.02%ADY in place of the ischia. I may have to deviate from his routine if it rises too fast.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 03:10:17 PM by Michael130207 »
Michael

Offline scott123

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2012, 10:24:53 PM »
Very nice, Michael.  Between the new chimney and Craig's tutorials, I'm expecting great things from this next bake. No pressure  ;D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2012, 10:34:32 PM »
Speaking of no pressure....maybe Scott could drop by an take of few pics of your next pies Michael.... :-D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2012, 10:20:01 PM »
So as advertised I tried to follow Craig's workflow today, complete with Calabrian chili oil and Allepo pepper flakes. Let me just say those two products are all they are cracked up to be. Really nice flavors! Thank you Craig for sharing your process in such detail.

I used 0.02% ADY and found it to work pretty well. Below is a picture of my dough just prior to baking in its container. The temperature profile was varied between 60F and 65F for the bulk rise of 26 hours. Balled then about 65F for 12 hours and 74F for 4 hours prior to baking. The amount of rise was good but the dough balls lacked enough structure. I couldn't really even manipulate them on the backs of my hands. I removed them from their plastic container and pressed and pulled them with my finger tips. Dragged them to the peel and dressed them on the peel. I am not sure why this happened. I did stretch and fold four cycles of 5 stretch and folds and the dough was smooth by the last one. The hydration was 62.5%. Perhaps I didn't work it enough initially. Next time I will try a lower hydration and work it a little more. The pies were tasty and tender, 90s bakes.

The new chimney worked great, enough draw to capture almost all the smoke during firing and certainly all the smoke during baking. Current oven configuration worked well with the door offset to the right. It does make it a little harder to tend to the fire on the left. I definitely need longer tongs or longer gloves. Ouch! See picture of arm below. Lower door opening of 6.5 inches with ceiling of 9 inches worked well but definitely limits access somewhat see picture of arm below. :'( . Deck temp was about 800F and so were the walls. Fired the oven for about 7 hours prior to bake. I think with the limited insulation I currently have those are the highest temps I will see. Although they did stay nice and stable over a couple hour bake. I think it should improve once I encase the whole thing in perlcrete.

Started to develop a gummy brown film on my turning peel, not sure why. Thought It might be related to the dough being so delicate. Anyone have similar experience or ideas? Shortly thereafter I tore a pie and made a big mess on oven floor. Now I keep turning peel clean. Well, not as good as I had hope for but with some more dough making and fire management practice I hope to get there. I'm enjoying the journey anyway.

I think I am done making changes to the oven. I plan on encasing it in perlcrete when I find the time. Thank you Scott for your many suggestions along the way.



« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 10:22:21 PM by Michael130207 »
Michael

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2012, 11:00:48 PM »
Boy Michael, those are some really top notch looking pies...congratulations. Sorry 'bout the arm...you certainly are paying your dues eh? !!   >:(
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline scott123

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2012, 11:04:32 PM »
Ouch. Just looking at that photo makes my arm hurt.

But the pizzas should have distracted you from the pain a little bit, right?  ;D

Those are looking really good.  I like the thickness factor. I never thought I'd say this, but I sort of like the hyperpuffiness the KABF gives you in the first photo of this thread.  Still, these are a lot more Craig-ish.  I think, for the most part, you have the right tool for the job, it's just a matter of becoming a dough master.

I'm sure Craig will chime in, but I think he might take his dough just a tiny bit further, based upon the bubble structure underneath the proofing container.

When you burn dough, the burned areas will liquefy. That's where the gumminess is coming from.  Also, I don't have the link right now, but I remember Marco telling Omid that the yellowing of the undercrust relates in some way to bench flour- or something to that effect. The hearth is definitely a bit too high.  I would move the fire to the side a little sooner and the let the hearth drop a bit.

Looking at your arm, and thinking back to the reasoning I was using for recommending the offset door (which is escaping me at the moment), I think, before you perlcrete over it, it's time to lose the offset.  I might have been going with an offset with some sort of offset chimney arrangement in mind, I'm not sure. Whatever the case may be, I'm not sure what it's buying you.  You really need equal access to fire and pizza.

Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2012, 11:21:54 PM »
I think the offset was my idea. It allows me to use a bigger peel as it is a straight shot to the prime spot on the oven floor. With a small oven if you have to go in at an angle to launch your pie it decreases the maximum peel size. I can easily launch a 16 inch pie on the 27 inch deep by 31.5 inch floor. If I had to angle it I would be limited to a 14 inch pie. Or keep banging into the arch with the corner of the peel. Anyway, its not that hard to reach the fire on the left. The other thought was that it would help draw the fire across the oven ceiling better. I actually burnt my arm as I was reaching deep into the oven to clean the floor before launching my first pie.

The liquefaction of burnt dough makes sense as it was worsening as I developed more char. I think Craig actually uses a deck temp above what I was but he  has shorter bakes. 90 secs at 800F was too long, too much char.  I think my bakes will shorten once I increase insulation over my ceiling and my fire management gets better.

I definitely had too much bench flour too. I think as my dough improves that will be easier to decrease and it is also time to invest in a perforated peel.
Michael

Offline scott123

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2012, 11:37:17 PM »
Michael, are you doming these much?

I think it's time for proper oven tools, like a long handled brush. No more arms inside the oven, capisce?  ;D

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2012, 11:40:59 PM »
Scotty, he is a tough one.  When you see that the exhaust is held up with wire, then you realize that no mistake is made without love. :-D
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2012, 11:43:03 PM »
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2012, 07:34:10 AM »
Mike,

From your description, it sounds like your dough fermented too long. However, I think your proposed solution of lowering the hydration value might help. You might also find at some point that lowering the amount of yeast will also help. These are the sorts of things that I discovered from my own experiments, as discussed, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2012, 10:04:48 AM »
First let me congratulate you some truly beautiful pies. They are easily among the best homemade WFO pies I've ever seen. I would have no issue with the level of charring on the bottom. The top, and especially the bottom, have the look I would like to see. I think you are definitely on the right path - just fine tuning now.

When you say the dough "lacked structure," do you mean is was overly extensible? My dough is extremely extensible. Gravity itself is almost enough to do all the work. My gut feeling is that you are not overfermenting.

Caputo flour, correct? How long are you working it in the mixer? About the same as I described? The acids prodcued by the SD culture I use will tighten the dough a little, it may be that is the only difference. You might try letting it go a little longer in the mixer. How tight do you ball the dough? When making my balls, I fold the edges under and up into the middle of the ball, over and over, until they are very tight - any tighter and I'd tear the skin. A little flour on the top of the ball helps. Pinch them closed at the bottom leaving as little seam as possible. If that doesn't work, try giving it a couple (2) folds just before you ball it.

I think Scott is right that I let my balls rise up just a touch more than you did, but not much.

Keep on it. I think you are really close.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Michael130207

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2012, 10:27:09 AM »
Thanks Craig. I think your ideas for improvement are right on target. It was Caputo Pizzeria, just bought 25kg worth. The initial balls were very tight but quickly relaxed to a pancake inthe containers. I did mean extensible and I believe your suggestion to let it go longer in the mixer is correct. I followed your instructions as closely as I could but I think some of the mixer mixing were ineffective c-hook shinanigans. These balls were so extensible that they became distorted with turning out of the container. Most of my shaping was to get them back into a round. If I had put them on the backs of my hands they would have torn. I plan to eventually go back to sourdough and maybe that will help too.

For the next round I will drop hydration to 60%, work the dough a little more, and let the bulk rise at a little higher temp, closer to 65F, to get a little more rise.
Michael

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2012, 10:38:52 AM »
ineffective c-hook shinanigans. 

I have to deal with the c-hook too. When it's working properly for me, the dough almost makes a heart shape with one lobe on each side of the shaft of the c-hook. As the dough works, the lobes get higher and higher until the fall into the middle and another lobe works up in its place. When it's not working, the whole mass rides on the c-hook. When this happens, I stop the mixer, pull it all off the c-hook, and then restart it at speed 2 or 3. Once I see it working right (takes 3-5 seconds) I throttle it back to 1. This almost always works for me. In my experience, if you let the dough rest in the mixer after the initial mixing, you will never be able to get the c-hook kneading action to be right. The relaxed gluten just wrapps itself around the c-hook. Keep it stiff.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pizza dr

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Re: My first sourdough Nearlypolitan in my homemade WFO
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2012, 12:01:48 PM »
Hey guys

I noticed something this last weekend that I have never seen before in the mixer.  I have a spiral hook but the dough forms these lobes similar to what you are describing.  I was at about 4 minutes into the mixing at lowest speed and everything was going along swimmingly.  Then I turned my back for a second and the dough all of a sudden turned into an amorphous mass at the bottom of the bowl.  I stopped the mixer and scraped it off the side of the bowl but it never would stiffen up.  I ended up just taking it out and doing some stretch and folds but it never had much structure.  It was a new batch of Caputo 00 at my usual 60 % hydration.  Any ideas????   The only thing I could come up was an error with the hydration ( would it do this with a higher % hydration?) or a bad batch of flour?????

Scot

ps I don't want to hijack this thread but I thought it was appropriate at this point.  Please feel free to move.


 

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