Thin Crust Pizza Using the Malnati Semolina Dough

[Garvey]

I don't remember reading about anyone trying this, and I've been wanting to do so.  Today was the day.

I made 800g of dough two days ago [EDIT: using this recipe].  The first 400g went to a 12" DD yesterday--delicious!  The remaining 400g had a 48 hr cold ferment and was today's pie.

Pressed the dough into my 14.5" cutter pan.  Topped with 9 oz Aurelio's clone sauce, 10 oz homemade sausage, sauteed veggies, and 10 oz of cheese (8 mozz + 2 colby-jack).

[Garvey]

Baked on the low stone at 450 for 12 minutes and finished on the high stone for 4 minutes.

The results were tasty.  This cooked up soft and somewhat flaky (more so that the HRI recipe on this site).  Fully assembled like this, the components worked well together.  It gave me some ideas for the future, such as how I might to proceed with an Aurelio's clone...which remains a mystery to me and this forum...

Overall, it was a much softer crust than HRI or other thick-thin styles I've had before.  Not soft and doughy like NY pie--it just lacked any real crunch or bite.  It offered little resistance to the bite...true to the "biscuit" nature, I guess.

Would I make this again?  Meh...probably not.  That's not to say it was bad in any way: there are just so many pizzas and such little time.

[dwighttsharpe]

(?),

So, is this an improvisation of BTB's "Deep Dish..." formula, or is it his actual "Thin Crust with Semolina" formula, here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6605.0.html

Thanks.

[mykall]

Really nice pie Garvey!  I noticed that every corner piece has a "nub" of sausage on it.   Coincidence ??  I think not!  

[CDNpielover]

looks like you have a picky eater who refuses to eat meat or party-cut-pie.    I know exactly how you feel.  

[Garvey]

So, is this an improvisation of BTB's "Deep Dish..." formula, or is it his actual "Thin Crust with Semolina" formula

It's the Malnati dough--from the very first "sticky" up top on this forum.  More specifically, it's from reply #488 (page 25 of thread), which I believe is BTB's final formulation.  It's the one I've been using, anyway.

Really nice pie Garvey!  I noticed that every corner piece has a "nub" of sausage on it.  Coincidence ??  I think not! 

   You got it, mykall!  And thanks!

looks like you have a picky eater who refuses to eat meat or party-cut-pie.    I know exactly how you feel. 

Haha--nailed it, CDNpielover.  Nothing says, "I'm married," on the Pizza Forum like a portion of the pie made totally wack.

[rcbaughn]

So this pie used 20% semolina in the mix? I made a thin crust very similar to this with 40% semolina and I had problems getting it to crisp up as well. It turned out pretty soft despite a good while cooking. It may have been my pan though. I started it in a cold cast iron skillet on my preheated stone. I ended up having to set the pan on my stove top burner to crisp the bottom. I kinda want to give this another shot and see if I can get it right, but don't really know what to change.

[Garvey]

Would I make this again?  Meh...probably not.  That's not to say it was bad in any way: there are just so many pizzas and such little time.

I've thought about this some more and wanted to elaborate a bit.  I would definitely *eat* this again, but I probably wouldn't make this dough ahead of time for the express purpose of making a thin crust with it.  If I had some leftover dough and wanted thin crust?  Sure, absolutely!

[Garvey]

rcb:

I don't know about the effects of 40% semolina. 

The oil, though, may be another story.  Overall, I would think that this much oil would make for a softer dough, but then again, that oversimplifies things.  Oil is but one factor in the whole protocol.  Buzz achieved a crispy, high-oil pie with his "awesome thin crust," but he does some things differently. 

Apparently, docking and prebaking can lead to a crispy crust, even with a high-oil dough.  Kneading would be another factor, too.  The short knead of DD dough leads to a softer texture.  Etc.

Cheers,
Garvey

[BTB]

I haven't done a thin crust with semolina recently, but remember doing the one referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6605.msg65016.html#msg65016 et al.  The formulation for an 11" pizza there was:

Flour and Semolina Blend*  (100%):  121.43 g  |  4.28 oz | 0.27 lbs
Water (47%):  57.07 g  |  2.01 oz | 0.13 lbs
ADY (1.5%):  1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):  1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%):  4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (20%):  24.29 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.35 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%):  2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 215.54 g | 7.6 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = 0.08
*Note:  The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 97.14 g. (3.42 oz.) all-purpose flour and 24.29 g. (.86 oz.) semolina flour

What I and my taste testers remember the most was cutting the baked pizza with the pizza cutting wheel and feeling, sensing and hearing that nice crunch signifying a nice crispy crust, and it was so good.  I remember par baking the crust, which in the home oven environment one often has to do.  It is not done in the commercial baking world, of course, but those ovens are vastly different from our home ovens.  I think I tried this once with bread flour and once with AP and came to prefer that with the AP.  Look how stiff and crisp the piece of pizza looks in the picture at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6605.msg66277.html#msg66277 .  I was able to get it nicely crispy and crunchy, but sometimes we get different results for unknown reasons.

On the second page of that thread is King Arthur's Flour Company's recipe for a thin crust pizza that uses a substantial amount of semolina.  Some may want to experiment with that.  Garvey, you are right about the oil, which often does result in a softer dough.  I have been little by little reducing the amount of oil as I repeat many of my pizza recipes to try to get to a happy medium between both a little soft and crispy.

                                                                             --BTB

[Garvey]

BTB:

How much kneading does that formulation call for?  It doesn't really specify in that thread (e.g., "not too much kneading"). 

And how about the autolyse--you still doing that?

Thanks,
Garvey

[rcbaughn]

I did do a pre-bake and dock Garvey and I still didn't get that crisp crust. It was disappointing, but I am sure it was the pan. It sucked all the energy from the stone and then couldn't let the heat build back up in time to crisp the bottom at the same time as cooking the top.

It was actually one of your thin crust recipes BTB if you remember, so it should've turned out wonderful. LOL, but my equipment wasn't right which can make or break a pizza recipe for sure, and the high amount of semolina may have made a difference. Maybe you can crack this mystery and I'll give it another shot! Ha.

-Cory

[BTB]

How much kneading does that formulation call for?

Very little mixing/kneading.  Two minutes at the most, 1 minute ideally . . . maybe.  It's a "touch and feel" thing not easy to describe.  I probably do more "squishing" of the dough ball with the hands than the technical definition of "kneading," which I think requires use of knuckles and folding, et al, which I don't really do too much of.  If too wet or oily, I'd add a tsp or two of flour to get to that right feel and touch.  I know this description is kind of illusive and maybe others can do it better.

And how about the autolyse--you still doing that?

Yes . . . and No.  When I have time and I remember to do so, it definitely is the preferable way to go.  At least in my eyes (or taste buds) in that it is a little better tasting I've always thought.  But time in our modern day is a tight commodity and many of us like to quicken the pace to get to the goal line.  I would say its preferable if one has the time (and as a retiree "remembers to do so").

Looking foward to hearing about some more of your pizzamaking efforts.

                                                                              --BTB

[BTB]

Garvey, in looking back at your pictures above, which showed the progress of a very beautiful pizza pie, I'm just wondering if it would have been more advantageous to have left it on the bottom stone for either a little more or the duration of the bake.  Timing is all important in baking. 

Most often in the "duration" mode, the top of the pizza eventually browns up while the crust underneath continues to bake and crisp up a little more (and the "crisp" component is a key to some or a lot with Chicago thin crust styles).  At 450 degrees F I don't think the bottom would burn easily, but I most often pull the pizza out of the oven near the judged end point and pick up the edge to see how the "upskirt" is doing (maybe even more than once).  I don't hesitate to put it back in if not browned enough in the "upskirt" (I know, I know, . . . I lose a lot of oven heat by opening the oven door, but I ignore that).

I'm not sure how browned the underside of your pizza pieces looked.  Nor if any oil, crisco, corn meal, etc.

In a short time, I think you'll be the expert on all this.

Just FWIW.  I really don't know it all, just a little bit to make my thoughts and advice dangerous.  But I think use of semolina to some extent with pizza formulations well is worth the effort, just as King Arthur's formulations suggest.  But baking equipment, techniques, temperature, oven tactics, etc. somehow have to fit into the total equation, which is not easy to describe.
                                                                                            --BTB           

[Garvey]

BTB:

Thanks for the feedback.  I may give your thin crust formulation a try.  The hydration and oil levels are different, so that should make a difference.  I have never been a crust par-baker.  Would I get the crispity crunchity without it?

Also, I used 400g of dough, whereas your thin crust recipe would call for 348g.  That is a significant difference.  Less dough would help.  It seemed awfully thin going down, but I can roll instead of press.  That should be no problem.

I hadn't considered longer on the bottom stone.  It looked pretty brown on the upskirt when I checked, but the high oil level and the 450 temp are fairly forgiving: I could have maybe gone longer.  Nothing about the final product was doughy or underdone, though.  I sprayed the pan beforehand: maybe a liberal dose of corn oil would have helped, too.

But baking equipment, techniques, temperature, oven tactics, etc. somehow have to fit into the total equation, which is not easy to describe.

Too true!  It is so much more than a dough formulation.  The entire protocol from mixing to baking and everything in between can affect the final outcome.

Dammit, man, you're talking me into making this again...
 

Cheers,
Garvey

P.S. I can't talk you into setting your sights on an Aurelio's clone, can I?

[Chicago Bob]

Garvey,

I too hope you will try this again...the pics of your pie look killer. The very last pic showing the single slice does look a bit thick so with the new lighter weight recipe you are considering maybe you will likey.

I have been very stubborn in becoming a par-bake convert on my Chicago thins...we never did it in the restaurants so why should I have to do it now? As everbody says, we can only do so much with these home ovens. Please give it a try,Garvy, I know I'm sure glad I did...you will notice a big difference with this type of pie.

I always enjoy your work and your pics,you make some great looking pizza...thanks!

Bob

[BTB]

Bob, I vaguely remember that you were a "northside" pizza guy.  If so, please let us know about some of the great pizzas there that you remember.  I've been to many great ones there, too.

Garvey, if you checked the upskirt color and it was browned enough, then I'm uncertain if my thoughts would apply.  Back to trial and error.

I've never tried to clone an Aurelio's pizza since I've got into pizzamaking several years ago.  It's funny while I've always loved their pizzas, I've never thought that their crust was particularly spectacular.  Good, but not great.  It was the other aspects of their pizzas that I always thought were great.  But they have vastly changed their crust formulation for purposes of the newer conveyor ovens, and even tho the flavor/taste of their "new and improved" crust remains the same, the newer crust formulation is really good, too.  It's "lighter and fluffier" as well as a little crisp . . . if that makes any sense. I would be hard pressed to figure out a clone.

I checked out that Aurelio's video that you mentioned at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4084.msg172559.html#msg172559 .  I never met Joe Jr. but used to see and talk with Joe Sr. on a large number of occasions.  I remember especially when Joe Sr. first invented or used that sausage dropping piece of equipment.  It worked really well.  The part of the video showing the deck ovens with the conveyor ovens sticking out down the line is what I remember when they first moved to that location and got the "new" conveyor ovens.  I'm going to have to get back to their Homewood restaurant this summer to relive some of those great pizza eating times.  When one is there, always ask for the pizza to be cooked "in the old oven!"  The wait person will then know that you belong to a special class of old, loyal customers.

(Oh, do I remember the times when my young kids' birthdays had pizza parties at Aurelio's with the screeching, yelling kids saying "give me my pizza . . . and I got to go to the washroom . . "  But it is all a part of the cycle of life, right?  Crazy times but . . . now we wish we could go back to them . . .)

Regarding your previously mentioning the airing out the underside of a baked pizza, I remember going to the Naple's, FL Aurelio's about 5 years ago or so (owned by a Flossmoor, IL family) and when we received our pizza at the table it came in these new black "bubble" pans.  We scratched our heads at first and wondered what happened to the silver flat serving pans.  But we quickly figured out it was to keep the crust dry and crisp.  And about 3 years ago my wife and I went to our old stomping grounds at Home Run Inn on 31st St in Chicago and had one of their pizzas that I had previous been eating at for 30 or more years at that location.  And at that time, our pizza came in a black "bubble" pan to similarly let the crust remain dry and crisp.  Below is a picture of the pie we had at HRI on that day.  (I doubt anyone will remember, but HRI for 500 years or so -- ok maybe just 20 or 30 years -- always served their pizzas in a flat silver pan with a large paper doily to absorb the liquid drippings.  I remember that like it was yesterday.)

I mentioned this bubble pan concept to many of those who gulp down a lot of my pizzas and the surprising response I got was that . . . the pizzas don't last long enough to get affected by the moisture and are great just cutting them on my old wooden board.

                                                                                        --BTB              

[Chicago Bob]

BTB,

Sorry brudha, but I'm from waay out west in Aurora....that's right, Wayne's World !        So the only "famous" pizza joint's I've ever experienced on trips into the City have already been mentioned by you....and boy they sure were good !!
Ha! I also scratched my head the first time I saw one of those black nubby platters.Prolly did the same when I saw my first cardboard box instead of a good ole paper bag...the car just didn't smell the same on the ride home with my dad after that.....

Bob

[Garvey]

BTB:

I think with less dough, different hydration, oiled pan, and letting the pizza stay on the bottom stone for the duration, I may get the crisp I'm looking for.  Will give it a try sometime, anyway.

It's funny while I've always loved their pizzas, I've never thought that their crust was particularly spectacular.  Good, but not great.  It was the other aspects of their pizzas that I always thought were great...It's "lighter and fluffier" as well as a little crisp . . . if that makes any sense. I would be hard pressed to figure out a clone.

I know what you mean.  But I'd also argue that its inscrutability means that it is, in fact, spectacular.     When considered as part of the whole pizza, it just works.  The more I've had Aurelio's over the past few years, the more impressed I am every single time I eat it.  Part of this is because I live 700 miles away from Chicagoland, so I am simply amazed at my ability to purchase an edible pizza and not have to make it myself.  But I've really been intrigued by the flavor of the crust and the way it crisps up...the way an unsauced edge piece has little dough blisters...  It almost has a natural yeast characteristic to it.  They must be doing something interesting with the protocol to get it to come out the way they do.

To be honest, I don't know where to start.  I tried making a natural yeast (sourdough) version, and that didn't get there.  I thought about maybe trying my Pizza Factory clone but going with a heavier dough ball and more oil.  Or maybe I'll try the semolina dough and cut back on that recipe's oil. I really don't know. 

What I need is a party where I can try out several different formulations during one evening.  This snail's pace of a couple pizzas per weekend is too slow! 

Cheers,
Garvey

[Garvey]

I made this again, but this time I used the Pizza Factory sauce, and it really improved. Malnati Factory!  Maybe I will try this again after all...