Beginner's NYC style recipe???

[Malanga]

I'm looking for a no-frills beginner's NYC recipe that I can pull off with AP.  The local Sam's club only has AP and bread flour.  Looking at the nutritional data, it says 3g protein per 30g serving, which from what I have read would be at least 2-3% lower than ideal.  I'm not looking to supplement as of now; just want to spend as little as possible on the bulk I currently have access to. 

Also, any good resources on spreading/tossing dough?  So far I have not made a pie larger than 12 inches, and I'm a bit intimidated by going bigger in fear of ripping the darn thing. 

[rcbaughn]

Whenever I made my first pie it was around 14", and I just did a table stretch. It turned out pretty good and the chances of ripping it are slim to none. I also do all my stretching on the wooden launch peel that way there is less risk of me tearing it. I am new too though to the art of pizza making, so maybe someone who is very experienced can chime in and offer some help. Making sure your dough is good and relaxed will help too.

[Malanga]

Thanks rcbaughn!  I heard that going a bit higher with the protein count helps with the stretching as well.  Watched a vid last night of some guy stretching and tossing and the dough looked so tough that there was very little chance of anyone tearing that thing.  I'll keep watching some vids on YouTube just to get an idea of what I should be doing (and what I should not be doing as well

[buceriasdon]

If Sam's Club bread flour is all you have access to I would go with the higher protein bread flour.
Don

[rcbaughn]

I tell you what really made my Mellow Mushroom pies good and chewy like a New York slice I hear is, and that was some Vital Wheat Gluten. I the Arrowhead Mills brand for $4 and you only use a couple tablespoons of it for a couple dough balls worth of dough. It really ups the gluten and protein content, for every 1% by flour weight brings the protein up by 0.6% so I've read, so 3% brings in a KABF recipe ups it to a protein level like King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. You may wanna try that and see if it gives you the chew your looking for at a reasonable price! 

[Pete-zza]

I tell you what really made my Mellow Mushroom pies good and chewy like a New York slice I hear is, and that was some Vital Wheat Gluten. I the Arrowhead Mills brand for $4 and you only use a couple tablespoons of it for a couple dough balls worth of dough. It really ups the gluten and protein content, for every 1% by flour weight brings the protein up by 0.6% so I've read, so 3% brings in a KABF recipe ups it to a protein level like King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. You may wanna try that and see if it gives you the chew your looking for at a reasonable price! 

Cody,

I used to use the math you discussed above until it was questioned by one of our members, November, especially the 0.6% part. Rather than leaving me hanging, November proceeded to design a new tool to use to do the math and to make it available to the members of this forum. The tool, called a Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator, is available at http://tools.foodsim.com/. You will note that the Arrowhead Mills brand of vital wheat gluten is in the pull-down menus. If you need help with an example of how to use the tool, let me know.

As for a basic NY style dough formulation for newbies with standard home ovens, the thread I normally recommend is the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. The main action in that thread starts at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

There are many more NY style dough recipes on the forum. Some time ago, I put together a compilation of many of those recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html. 

Peter

[Malanga]

Thanks Cody!  I'll look for the Arrowhead Mills on my next store run.  4 bucks is most definitely doable and worth a try.

Peter, thank you for the links and the calculator.  I have most definitely been following your threads since I joined the site; spent a good chunk of time going through your NY-style map last night.  I guess I was getting a bit dizzy with all the info there.  I'm sure it will prove much more useful for myself once I get my game going a bit here, where I am still treading in the shallow waters of newbidity. For now, I want to start as simple and basic as I possible can.  My plan is to mod my oven a bit and see if I can kick it up to the low 600s.  (Still compiling all the necessary materials).  Hopefully by the end of next week I'll be able to post a few pics of my inaugural attempts.

[Malanga]

If Sam's Club bread flour is all you have access to I would go with the higher protein bread flour.
Don

Hey Don!  When I looked at the nutritional info they were both 3g/30g, I could be wrong though. My next time there I will give it a closer look.  For now, I picked up a 5lb bag of KA to play around with.  (I think it was 5lbs). 

[rcbaughn]

I was, and still am a bit in the same boat as you Malanga! At first I was absolutely dizzy with all the information on this site and all the different styles, recipes, dough techniques, and cooking options that there are out there. Let alone all the different ferment times and temperatures that you do them at! But the longer I've been here, and that really isn't all that long, I've kind of got a grasp of what it all means and you will too. I still have probably a few years (no joke LOL) worth of baking to do before I am at the point to where I am truly comfortable with my pizzas, but that is all part of the fun I think! Good to hear that you got the KA, it is my flour of choice too since it is just about the only thing I can source here in Birmingham on the regular with no special ordering and expensive shipping costs.

And Malanga, do you mind if I ask what your plans are for your oven mods? I was going to try the self cleaning cycle in mine tonight, but the dough that I made from a batch of new starter I just grew was an absolute flop, so I didn't get to bake. (I was super bummed, dough was slack and slimy almost) Are you doing actually work to it, or more along the lines of just tricking it into thinking it's cooler inside than what it really is? I'd love to be able to get mine to the mid 700's, or even as high as 800 degrees. I'd need to get an IR thermometer for that though I suppose. Good luck on all your attempts though, I look forward to seeing good things next week!

[rcbaughn]

Peter, I was a bit lost on the calculator. I found that earlier today and tried to play with it, but never got any numbers to jump out at me as being viable to a recipe or how I would use it to up the protein in a mathematical sense. I'll keep playing with it though, I hate for you to have to give me a walk through, it seems pretty involved.

[JimmyG]

Cory,
How the Mixed mass calculator works as i understand it, is that you select the two flours you want to use in your blend, e.g. KAAP and the Arrowhead wheat gluten.
Let say that you want to shoot for a 13.5% protein content in your dough and you know your total flour weight is going to be 500g in your formula.

What you would do is to enter 500g where it says Mass and 13.5 below that where it says %. The output in yellow provides the gram quantities of each flour necessary to achieve 13.5%. In this case it would be 7.6482g of Arrowhead and 492.3518g of KAAP (you most likely want to round off the sig-figs as well). Hope this helps.

[rcbaughn]

I got it completely now, thank you so much for that Jimmy. I figured out how to get my KABF flour up to KASL protein levels now. Awesome.

[Pete-zza]

Cory,

An additional point to keep in mind is that adding vital wheat gluten to another flour, such as the KABF, does not produce the KASL flour. All you will do with such a blend is equal the protein content of the targeted flour. Also, there are many who detest using vital wheat gluten. On this forum, scott123 is the most vocal on this point. But, in many foreign countries, where the only flours locally available are weak flours (low protein content), about the only cost effective alternative to get a higher protein content is to use vital wheat gluten. I often use it in some of my experiments, like the Mellow Mushroom experiments, simply to bulk up the starting flour for textural and hydration purposes. I have done this so often that I don't mind the flavors of the vital wheat gluten.

Peter

[Malanga]

Cory, I'm only trying to trick the oven with a probe insulation via soft firebrick, as per Scott123's recommendation:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18589.msg184585.html#msg184585

I'm still waiting on IR thermometer as well. 

This site is great though.  You guys keep me super stoked about the entire process!

[parallei]

.

[Pete-zza]

Paul,

If you go the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ and click on the symbol ∑ at the top right hand corner of the tool, you will get a popup with the math involved.

Peter

[parallei]

.

[JimmyG]

Peter,
Did November post or create a key for the mathematical notation used on this site or the tools site? I a guessing M =mass and P = percentage, I am not clear what VWG, T or F is?

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I tried to explain the math involved and not just give a general formula........maybe not well.  You can delete the post if you want.

Paul,

No, you did fine. It is a good explanation. I mentioned the formula only because most people don't know it is there.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Peter,
Did November post or create a key for the mathematical notation used on this site or the tools site? I a guessing M =mass and P = percentage, I am not clear what VWG, T or F is?

Jim,

I do not believe that November provided a key. As for the symbols, VWG = vital wheat gluten, and I believe that T = target and F = flour.

Peter