Author Topic: Beginner's NYC style recipe???  (Read 3700 times)

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Offline Malanga

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Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« on: May 01, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »
I'm looking for a no-frills beginner's NYC recipe that I can pull off with AP.  The local Sam's club only has AP and bread flour.  Looking at the nutritional data, it says 3g protein per 30g serving, which from what I have read would be at least 2-3% lower than ideal.  I'm not looking to supplement as of now; just want to spend as little as possible on the bulk I currently have access to. 

Also, any good resources on spreading/tossing dough?  So far I have not made a pie larger than 12 inches, and I'm a bit intimidated by going bigger in fear of ripping the darn thing. 


Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 03:38:48 PM »
Whenever I made my first pie it was around 14", and I just did a table stretch. It turned out pretty good and the chances of ripping it are slim to none. I also do all my stretching on the wooden launch peel that way there is less risk of me tearing it. I am new too though to the art of pizza making, so maybe someone who is very experienced can chime in and offer some help. Making sure your dough is good and relaxed will help too.
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Offline Malanga

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 03:44:33 PM »
Thanks rcbaughn!  I heard that going a bit higher with the protein count helps with the stretching as well.  Watched a vid last night of some guy stretching and tossing and the dough looked so tough that there was very little chance of anyone tearing that thing.  I'll keep watching some vids on YouTube just to get an idea of what I should be doing (and what I should not be doing as well ;)

buceriasdon

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 03:58:52 PM »
If Sam's Club bread flour is all you have access to I would go with the higher protein bread flour.
Don

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 07:03:10 PM »
I tell you what really made my Mellow Mushroom pies good and chewy like a New York slice I hear is, and that was some Vital Wheat Gluten. I the Arrowhead Mills brand for $4 and you only use a couple tablespoons of it for a couple dough balls worth of dough. It really ups the gluten and protein content, for every 1% by flour weight brings the protein up by 0.6% so I've read, so 3% brings in a KABF recipe ups it to a protein level like King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. You may wanna try that and see if it gives you the chew your looking for at a reasonable price!  :)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 08:19:01 PM »
I tell you what really made my Mellow Mushroom pies good and chewy like a New York slice I hear is, and that was some Vital Wheat Gluten. I the Arrowhead Mills brand for $4 and you only use a couple tablespoons of it for a couple dough balls worth of dough. It really ups the gluten and protein content, for every 1% by flour weight brings the protein up by 0.6% so I've read, so 3% brings in a KABF recipe ups it to a protein level like King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. You may wanna try that and see if it gives you the chew your looking for at a reasonable price!  :)

Cody,

I used to use the math you discussed above until it was questioned by one of our members, November, especially the 0.6% part. Rather than leaving me hanging, November proceeded to design a new tool to use to do the math and to make it available to the members of this forum. The tool, called a Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator, is available at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. You will note that the Arrowhead Mills brand of vital wheat gluten is in the pull-down menus. If you need help with an example of how to use the tool, let me know.

As for a basic NY style dough formulation for newbies with standard home ovens, the thread I normally recommend is the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. The main action in that thread starts at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

There are many more NY style dough recipes on the forum. Some time ago, I put together a compilation of many of those recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html

Peter

Offline Malanga

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 11:09:45 PM »
Thanks Cody!  I'll look for the Arrowhead Mills on my next store run.  4 bucks is most definitely doable and worth a try.

Peter, thank you for the links and the calculator.  I have most definitely been following your threads since I joined the site; spent a good chunk of time going through your NY-style map last night.  I guess I was getting a bit dizzy with all the info there.  I'm sure it will prove much more useful for myself once I get my game going a bit here, where I am still treading in the shallow waters of newbidity. For now, I want to start as simple and basic as I possible can.  My plan is to mod my oven a bit and see if I can kick it up to the low 600s.  (Still compiling all the necessary materials).  Hopefully by the end of next week I'll be able to post a few pics of my inaugural attempts.

Offline Malanga

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 11:13:45 PM »
If Sam's Club bread flour is all you have access to I would go with the higher protein bread flour.
Don

Hey Don!  When I looked at the nutritional info they were both 3g/30g, I could be wrong though. My next time there I will give it a closer look.  For now, I picked up a 5lb bag of KA to play around with.  (I think it was 5lbs). 

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 12:47:47 AM »
I was, and still am a bit in the same boat as you Malanga! At first I was absolutely dizzy with all the information on this site and all the different styles, recipes, dough techniques, and cooking options that there are out there. Let alone all the different ferment times and temperatures that you do them at! But the longer I've been here, and that really isn't all that long, I've kind of got a grasp of what it all means and you will too. I still have probably a few years (no joke LOL) worth of baking to do before I am at the point to where I am truly comfortable with my pizzas, but that is all part of the fun I think! Good to hear that you got the KA, it is my flour of choice too since it is just about the only thing I can source here in Birmingham on the regular with no special ordering and expensive shipping costs.

And Malanga, do you mind if I ask what your plans are for your oven mods? I was going to try the self cleaning cycle in mine tonight, but the dough that I made from a batch of new starter I just grew was an absolute flop, so I didn't get to bake. (I was super bummed, dough was slack and slimy almost) Are you doing actually work to it, or more along the lines of just tricking it into thinking it's cooler inside than what it really is? I'd love to be able to get mine to the mid 700's, or even as high as 800 degrees. I'd need to get an IR thermometer for that though I suppose. Good luck on all your attempts though, I look forward to seeing good things next week!
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Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 12:54:14 AM »
Peter, I was a bit lost on the calculator. I found that earlier today and tried to play with it, but never got any numbers to jump out at me as being viable to a recipe or how I would use it to up the protein in a mathematical sense. I'll keep playing with it though, I hate for you to have to give me a walk through, it seems pretty involved.
More is better..... and too much is just right.

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 11:17:07 AM »
Cory,
How the Mixed mass calculator works as i understand it, is that you select the two flours you want to use in your blend, e.g. KAAP and the Arrowhead wheat gluten.
Let say that you want to shoot for a 13.5% protein content in your dough and you know your total flour weight is going to be 500g in your formula.

What you would do is to enter 500g where it says Mass and 13.5 below that where it says %. The output in yellow provides the gram quantities of each flour necessary to achieve 13.5%. In this case it would be 7.6482g of Arrowhead and 492.3518g of KAAP (you most likely want to round off the sig-figs as well). Hope this helps.
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Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 12:18:26 PM »
I got it completely now, thank you so much for that Jimmy. I figured out how to get my KABF flour up to KASL protein levels now. Awesome.
More is better..... and too much is just right.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 12:45:56 PM »
Cory,

An additional point to keep in mind is that adding vital wheat gluten to another flour, such as the KABF, does not produce the KASL flour. All you will do with such a blend is equal the protein content of the targeted flour. Also, there are many who detest using vital wheat gluten. On this forum, scott123 is the most vocal on this point. But, in many foreign countries, where the only flours locally available are weak flours (low protein content), about the only cost effective alternative to get a higher protein content is to use vital wheat gluten. I often use it in some of my experiments, like the Mellow Mushroom experiments, simply to bulk up the starting flour for textural and hydration purposes. I have done this so often that I don't mind the flavors of the vital wheat gluten.

Peter

Offline Malanga

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 01:46:35 PM »
Cory, I'm only trying to trick the oven with a probe insulation via soft firebrick, as per Scott123's recommendation:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18589.msg184585.html#msg184585

I'm still waiting on IR thermometer as well. 

This site is great though.  You guys keep me super stoked about the entire process!

parallei

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 02:48:34 PM »
.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:40:58 PM by parallei »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 05:32:31 PM »
Paul,

If you go the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ and click on the symbol ∑ at the top right hand corner of the tool, you will get a popup with the math involved.

Peter

parallei

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 06:22:09 PM »
.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:41:12 PM by parallei »


Offline JimmyG

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 06:43:16 PM »
Peter,
Did November post or create a key for the mathematical notation used on this site or the tools site? I a guessing M =mass and P = percentage, I am not clear what VWG, T or F is?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 07:03:41 PM »
Peter,

I tried to explain the math involved and not just give a general formula........maybe not well.  You can delete the post if you want.

Paul,

No, you did fine. It is a good explanation. I mentioned the formula only because most people don't know it is there.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:05:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »
Peter,
Did November post or create a key for the mathematical notation used on this site or the tools site? I a guessing M =mass and P = percentage, I am not clear what VWG, T or F is?

Jim,

I do not believe that November provided a key. As for the symbols, VWG = vital wheat gluten, and I believe that T = target and F = flour.

Peter

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 01:01:40 AM »
Peter, thanks for that heads up. That is bumming me out pretty hard, I thought that using VWG would get me very close to KASL in terms of authenticity in making New York style pies or other recipes that call for a higher protein flour. I can't source KASL since it is only sold in large bulk. That just isn't in my budget and wouldn't be efficient either. Maybe I can find someone locally that sells it in smaller quantities, like a local pizza place. I doubt it though, most places around here aren't really making much in the way of good New York style slices.

KABF is the highest protein content flour I can find around here so I guess I'll have to be satisfied. What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely? I don't really know what kind of flavor KASL would offer over KABF other than the textural change in the crust from the higher protein content. I'm a beginner in pizza baking, so I guess my palate may not even be able to tell the difference.
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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 02:19:44 AM »
What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely?

When you get a chance, stick your nose in your container of VWG and give it a good sniff.  The smell you're smelling (kind of a wet cardboard/dog food smell) is the taste you're adding to the dough.

Taste is a major issue with VWG, but lack of functionality is important as well.  As I've explained elsewhere, gluten, like Humpty Dumpty, can't be broken up and then put back together.  The process by which VWG is made damages the gluten irreparably.  You  can get a gumlike chewiness from it, but you don't get the kind of extensibility/oven spring that you get when the gluten is in it's native form.

I'm not sure where this information comes from, but KASL is far from the optimal choice for NY style.  14% protein flours, unless you go to great lengths not to activate the gluten, will almost always give you pizza that's a little bit too chewy.  These flours are good for bagels, but not for pizza. While KABF leaves a lot to be desired compared to bromated flour, it's protein level is extremely suitable for NY style pizza.

Cory, it won't be easy, but Birmingham should have at least one flour distributor who's willing to sell to the public and that carries 13ish% protein bromated flour (Full Strength, Spring King, etc.). Do you belong to Sam's Club or know someone that does?  They carry a bromated high gluten flour that works beautifully for NY style.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 09:51:38 AM »
KABF is the highest protein content flour I can find around here so I guess I'll have to be satisfied. What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely? I don't really know what kind of flavor KASL would offer over KABF other than the textural change in the crust from the higher protein content. I'm a beginner in pizza baking, so I guess my palate may not even be able to tell the difference.

Cory,

It is always preferable to use a flour with the desired protein content rather than relying on vital wheat gluten. If you look at the entry for vital wheat gluten in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, you can see how it is made and how it is not a form of gluten that you might get if you were to do a gluten mass test. If you read about Norma's gluten mass tests, if she had dried and ground the gluten masses she got from those tests, she would have been making a homemade vital wheat gluten. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I believe that Norma did that and used her vital wheat gluten in a pizza dough.

I think that vital wheat gluten is a personal preference sort of thing. Some people love it and some people hate it, and far be it for me to arm wrestle anyone over it. Following up on scott123's suggestion to take a good sniff of vital wheat gluten, this morning I did two lines of Hodgson's Mill vital wheat gluten, and I thought that it had a very pleasant aroma. It does have a pronounced flavor, however.

scott123 is also right that it is not necessary to use a high-gluten flour for the NY style. High-gluten flour for the NY style pizza came into vogue sometime in the 1970s, prior to which high-gluten flour was a popular flour to use to make bagels, as scott123 noted, and also certain breads. Prior to the 1970s, the flours that were used to make the New York style were all-purpose flour and bread flour, and often just called "pizza flour". In many cases, the flours were bleached and bromated. These days, bromated flours are higher protein flours (all-purpose flours may be bleached but they are not bromated). I would say that the most popular flour used today by professionals for the New York style is the All Trumps bleached and bromated high-gluten flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:13:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 10:58:31 AM »
Cory,

Peterís memory never fails him.  ;D He was right that I did try ground baked gluten in some pizzas.

If you are interested at all I did use the ground baked gluten from a baked gluten test at Reply 83  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg171069.html#msg171069  and again at Reply 98 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg171759.html#msg171759 in a pizza dough.  The pizza I made with the ground home made gluten the second time had about the same dressings as the MM naturally leavened pizza you made. 

I also agree with Peter and Scott if you have a higher protein flour and that is what the formulation calls for it is better to use that with adding VWG, but I also donít mind using VWG.  I have the Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten and did just give it a few sniffs and tastes and really I donít think it smells or tastes bad. 

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Beginner's NYC style recipe???
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 11:15:18 AM »
rcbaughn

I agree with Scott123, KASL is better suited to bagel making then to NY pizza.  If you really want to use KASL, buy KASL. The only thing I would use vial wheat gluten in is rye bread.
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