Beginner's NYC style recipe???

[rcbaughn]

Peter, thanks for that heads up. That is bumming me out pretty hard, I thought that using VWG would get me very close to KASL in terms of authenticity in making New York style pies or other recipes that call for a higher protein flour. I can't source KASL since it is only sold in large bulk. That just isn't in my budget and wouldn't be efficient either. Maybe I can find someone locally that sells it in smaller quantities, like a local pizza place. I doubt it though, most places around here aren't really making much in the way of good New York style slices.

KABF is the highest protein content flour I can find around here so I guess I'll have to be satisfied. What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely? I don't really know what kind of flavor KASL would offer over KABF other than the textural change in the crust from the higher protein content. I'm a beginner in pizza baking, so I guess my palate may not even be able to tell the difference.

[scott123]

What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely?

When you get a chance, stick your nose in your container of VWG and give it a good sniff.  The smell you're smelling (kind of a wet cardboard/dog food smell) is the taste you're adding to the dough.

Taste is a major issue with VWG, but lack of functionality is important as well.  As I've explained elsewhere, gluten, like Humpty Dumpty, can't be broken up and then put back together.  The process by which VWG is made damages the gluten irreparably.  You  can get a gumlike chewiness from it, but you don't get the kind of extensibility/oven spring that you get when the gluten is in it's native form.

I'm not sure where this information comes from, but KASL is far from the optimal choice for NY style.  14% protein flours, unless you go to great lengths not to activate the gluten, will almost always give you pizza that's a little bit too chewy.  These flours are good for bagels, but not for pizza. While KABF leaves a lot to be desired compared to bromated flour, it's protein level is extremely suitable for NY style pizza.

Cory, it won't be easy, but Birmingham should have at least one flour distributor who's willing to sell to the public and that carries 13ish% protein bromated flour (Full Strength, Spring King, etc.). Do you belong to Sam's Club or know someone that does?  They carry a bromated high gluten flour that works beautifully for NY style.

[Pete-zza]

KABF is the highest protein content flour I can find around here so I guess I'll have to be satisfied. What is the problem with VWG to some though? Does it contribute that much flavor really? So much that is changes KABF completely? I don't really know what kind of flavor KASL would offer over KABF other than the textural change in the crust from the higher protein content. I'm a beginner in pizza baking, so I guess my palate may not even be able to tell the difference.

Cory,

It is always preferable to use a flour with the desired protein content rather than relying on vital wheat gluten. If you look at the entry for vital wheat gluten in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, you can see how it is made and how it is not a form of gluten that you might get if you were to do a gluten mass test. If you read about Norma's gluten mass tests, if she had dried and ground the gluten masses she got from those tests, she would have been making a homemade vital wheat gluten. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I believe that Norma did that and used her vital wheat gluten in a pizza dough.

I think that vital wheat gluten is a personal preference sort of thing. Some people love it and some people hate it, and far be it for me to arm wrestle anyone over it. Following up on scott123's suggestion to take a good sniff of vital wheat gluten, this morning I did two lines of Hodgson's Mill vital wheat gluten, and I thought that it had a very pleasant aroma. It does have a pronounced flavor, however.

scott123 is also right that it is not necessary to use a high-gluten flour for the NY style. High-gluten flour for the NY style pizza came into vogue sometime in the 1970s, prior to which high-gluten flour was a popular flour to use to make bagels, as scott123 noted, and also certain breads. Prior to the 1970s, the flours that were used to make the New York style were all-purpose flour and bread flour, and often just called "pizza flour". In many cases, the flours were bleached and bromated. These days, bromated flours are higher protein flours (all-purpose flours may be bleached but they are not bromated). I would say that the most popular flour used today by professionals for the New York style is the All Trumps bleached and bromated high-gluten flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Cory,

Peter’s memory never fails him.  He was right that I did try ground baked gluten in some pizzas.

If you are interested at all I did use the ground baked gluten from a baked gluten test at Reply 83  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg171069.html#msg171069  and again at Reply 98 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg171759.html#msg171759 in a pizza dough.  The pizza I made with the ground home made gluten the second time had about the same dressings as the MM naturally leavened pizza you made. 

I also agree with Peter and Scott if you have a higher protein flour and that is what the formulation calls for it is better to use that with adding VWG, but I also don’t mind using VWG.  I have the Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten and did just give it a few sniffs and tastes and really I don’t think it smells or tastes bad. 

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

rcbaughn

I agree with Scott123, KASL is better suited to bagel making then to NY pizza.  If you really want to use KASL, buy KASL. The only thing I would use vial wheat gluten in is rye bread.

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,

Two lines of vital wheat gluten this morning?     You are hard core mister....

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

Two lines of vital wheat gluten this morning?     You are hard core mister....

Bob,

LOL. I wondered who would be the first to catch and comment on it.

Peter

[slybarman]

rcbaughn

I agree with Scott123, KASL is better suited to bagel making then to NY pizza.  If you really want to use KASL, buy KASL. The only thing I would use vial wheat gluten in is rye bread.

If I use KA bread flour, are the quantities going to be the same as KASL or do I have to use that crazy math from a few posts back?

[rcbaughn]

Haha Peter I caught the "two line" comment right off the bat. I guess that is the college guy in my coming out.... LOL. I don't mind the smell of vital wheat gluten but have never tasted it alone. I'll give it a go when I go to the kitchen next time.

And Scott, thank you for the heads up, I will call around and try to find some bromated flour at a local pizzeria or distributor. I have heard of All Trumps before but not the ones you mention, Spring King etc. I may try to do a New York Style pie with my KABF and no VWG at all and see if I can tell the difference. I have been adding it to my MM clones as I said and you may be on to something that I've noticed in that it can be a bit gummy and doesn't reheat very well, although it is pretty good straight out of the oven. Oven Spring is also something that I am not getting as Norma and them have in their MM clones, so when I make a New York style next hopefully I can have the right flour.

And Norma, those gluten mass tests are very interesting. I couldn't find Hodgson Mills VWG when I was buying mine, which is what I wanted, but ended up going with the Arrowhead Mills. I guess it is close enough though since I can use that calculator Peter linked in one of my threads to get the protein level up to what I'm looking for.

Thanks for all the information on VWG. I have gained an immense amount of knowledge when it comes to all things pizza over the past few weeks, which carries over into almost every other form of cooking whether it be baking or whatever. Maybe I will become a better baker as time goes on. -Cory

[norma427]

Bob,

LOL. I wondered who would be the first to catch and comment on it.

Peter

Peter,

I also caught that one.    That is why I said I took two sniffs.     I didn't want to do two whole lines. 

Norma

[norma427]

I have used Better for Bread, KASL, All Trumps, Pillsbury Balancer and other flours in NY style doughs.  I can’t say at this moment if any of them are my favorites.  I tried most of them out on the preferment Lehmann dough thread and for other NY style doughs. 

Norma

[rcbaughn]

Norma, I can get Gold Medal Better for Bread flour at my local Piggly Wiggly grocery store, but that is the only one out of the list I can source without special ordering pretty much. I wonder if it would be better for a NY style pie than KABF. It most certainly is a lot cheaper, and I am going through quite a good bit of flour these days. And I am a one liner and not a two liner kind of person as well.

[norma427]

Norma, I can get Gold Medal Better for Bread flour at my local Piggly Wiggly grocery store, but that is the only one out of the list I can source without special ordering pretty much. I wonder if it would be better for a NY style pie than KABF. It most certainly is a lot cheaper, and I am going through quite a good bit of flour these days. And I am a one liner and not a two liner kind of person as well.

Cory,

If you have the time, read this thread, if you haven‘t already.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.0.html  There is a lot of good information in that thread in my opinion.  Brian Spangler (sfspanky) is the owner of Apizza Scholls and a experienced bread baker.  He has a lot of knowledge.  Brian uses Harvest King which is the same flour as Better for Bread flour. 

If you are interested you can see what I posted to Brian at Reply 34 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123592.html#msg123592 about changing my flour from KASL to Harvest King/Better for Bread and what Brian answered in the next post.

Good you are only a one liner. 

Norma