Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?

[BrickStoneOven]

I'm a dinosaur now, I'll be a fossil by then.

I wonder if a pizza ovens in hell would get hot enough for a good  Neapolitan style pizza? Or would you even need an oven and if not would that not be some sort of pizza heaven? I am at times confused.

If you worked fast enough since it's so hot down there you could probably have one opened, topped, and baked in under 20 seconds without even needing an oven. Who needs a Neapolitan low dome oven when your already living in one.

I just turned 24 a few months ago fwiw.

[pizzaneer]

woa.. you already have a brick stone oven @ 24?

What else is on your bucket list?

[BrickStoneOven]

woa.. you already have a brick stone oven @ 24?

What else is on your bucket list?

a fork mixer...

[Glutenboy]

Bubba - Three questions:

1) What specific flours were common in your experience in the NY pizzeria industry back in the 70s and earlier?  It's what I grew up on and I'm trying to get as close as possible.

2) What about this DOB sauce?  There's no mention on the web.  What was it?  A prepared sauce or just a simple tomato product?  Anything around today that you find comparable?

3) Is the Polly-O cheese I find in the market today still as good as what you used?  Was it the low-moisture product, or fresh?  My recollection was that most NY pizzerias used grated cheese, but it was much creamier and stringier than what I usually get now when I buy a pizza.

This and any other info you've got are much appreciated.

- GB

[scott123]

1) What specific flours were common in your experience in the NY pizzeria industry back in the 70s and earlier?  It's what I grew up on and I'm trying to get as close as possible.

I don't think anyone in this forum has an answer for this.  The mass exodus from all purpose to hg bromated happened somewhere around this time, but I have yet to find anyone with a clear sense of actual dates.  I think it's also safe to say that this exodus didn't occur overnight, so there's a chance that part of the industry had made the switch to bromate while your favorite spot was still AP.

The only way to know for certain is to work with AP and hg bromated side by side and see what comes closer to the taste of your youth. For me, the pies of my youth (early 80s) were pretty tender, but they weren't AP tender, so 12.7% protein bromated seems to be the winner for me- as opposed to the 14% bromated that dominates the industry now.

[pizzaneer]

In my next dough, I would like to give adding egg a try.  I work with AP flour, and think the added gluten from the egg would help develop the soft but high, airy crumb structure of old-fashioned NY pies. 

I would love to have a recipe for this.  If not, I'll wing it and document it.

Brian

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

I believe you meant to say protein instead of gluten, which is flour-based and includes glutenin and gliaden.

For an egg-based NY style dough formulation, you might take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14326.msg143218.html#msg143218, including the links referenced therein.

Peter

[pizzaneer]

Woops, my mistake.  Protein it is.

I think I'd like to try that recipe with more hydration as noted.  The deep color of the crust is certainly appealing, if not the oven spring.

Thanks Pete!

[Bubba Kuhn]

Bubba - Three questions:

1) What specific flours were common in your experience in the NY pizzeria industry back in the 70s and earlier?  It's what I grew up on and I'm trying to get as close as possible.

2) What about this DOB sauce?  There's no mention on the web.  What was it?  A prepared sauce or just a simple tomato product?  Anything around today that you find comparable?

3) Is the Polly-O cheese I find in the market today still as good as what you used?  Was it the low-moisture product, or fresh?  My recollection was that most NY pizzerias used grated cheese, but it was much creamier and stringier than what I usually get now when I buy a pizza.

This and any other info you've got are much appreciated.

- GB

(1) Bromated flour was seldom used in most the shops I worked in.
As it is a way to chemically improve an "AP" all purpose grade flour which is a low grade soft low wheat gluten product to begin with in to a  product that had the gluten like properties of a winter hard wheat. Potassium bromide is the toxic additive that will do the trick.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-bromated-flour.htm

I have always stuck to a red winter wheat enriched with malted barley flour and an abscorbic acid conditioner. 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-barley-flour.htm

This link sites the USA adding bromine to flour to enhance baking as early as 1914.

http://season9.com/potassium-bromate/

I have always used malted flours as a rule of thumb I wont sell what I wont eat.
http://www.spokanebakerysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item%20detail&itemcode=1638

(2) The DOB sauce came in a #10 tin and was usually mixed 1 to 1 with water  add 1/4 cup dry oregano 2tablespoons salt one of crushed red peppers and one of black pepper.  Was a common house recipe with some variation each one claimed made their sauce special. DOB was tomato concentrate soybean and cottonseed oil, sugar and herbs and spices.
Personally I think pizza got much better when this stuff disappeared from common use.

(3) Polly-O cheese that we used came in 30 lb cases of 6 5 pound blocks.  It was marked Low moisture part skimmed.
The block was cut in half lengthwise and then each half was cut in thirds the same way. We then feed it into the sausage grinder attached to the 60 quart Hobart stand mixer, the one we used for dough. The cheese came out like a string and we would break it up into pellets. The Polly-O today seems different then the cheese of yesteryear.

[Glutenboy]

Thanks, Bubba.  I guess when you get right down to it, the magic's in the memories as much as the ingredients! 

[Pete-zza]

GB,

After you posted, I sent an email to Tim Huff of General Mills, with whom I have had many exchanges in the past, and asked him if he knew when high-gluten flour was first used for the NY style and, if he knew, whose flour it was. Apparently, this is not a subject of great interest at GM since he replied today that he checked around and could not find an answer.

Some time ago, I used the Google news archive search feature (since discontinued) in an attempt to find old articles in which the use of high-gluten flour was described for making pizza dough. I found some references to use of such flour for bagels and some breads but very few for pizza. My recollection is that it was perhaps in the 1970s that pizza operators started to play around with high-gluten flour for pizza and such use started to creep into articles on the subject.

I also took a look at Evelyne Slomon's book, The Pizza Book, to see what she said about the flours used at the time her book was published in August, 1984. I suspect that what she said in her book about flours reached back a few years as she was researching and writing the book. In her book, in the Flour section, she discussed all-purpose flour and bread flour. However, her description of bread flour was a bit fuzzy since she said that bread flour was sometimes called high-gluten flour and she also mentioned a protein content for bread flour of approximately 14%. Quite possibly the lines between what we now know as bread flour and high-gluten flour were starting to become blurred.

Since old habits die hard, I suspect that the transition by NYC pizza operators to high-gluten flours from the all-purpose and bread flours did not happen overnight. I wouldn't be surprised if it took several years for the transition to take hold, and that the process was gradual and perhaps accelerated when consumers started to indicate their preference or fondness for the pizzas made with high-gluten flours. it is also possible that pizza operators saw something functionally better using high-gluten flour. like more taste, better kneading and handling qualities, etc. And maybe they could charge more for their pizzas as a result.

Peter

[Bubba Kuhn]

GB,

After you posted, I sent an email to Tim Huff of General Mills, with whom I have had many exchanges in the past, and asked him if he knew when high-gluten flour was first used for the NY style and, if he knew, whose flour it was. Apparently, this is not a subject of great interest at GM since he replied today that he checked around and could not find an answer.

Some time ago, I used the Google news archive search feature (since discontinued) in an attempt to find old articles in which the use of high-gluten flour was described for making pizza dough. I found some references to use of such flour for bagels and some breads but very few for pizza. My recollection is that it was perhaps in the 1970s that pizza operators started to play around with high-gluten flour for pizza and such use started to creep into articles on the subject.

I also took a look at Evelyne Slomon's book, The Pizza Book, to see what she said about the flours used at the time her book was published in August, 1984. I suspect that what she said in her book about flours reached back a few years as she was researching and writing the book. In her book, in the Flour section, she discussed all-purpose flour and bread flour. However, her description of bread flour was a bit fuzzy since she said that bread flour was sometimes called high-gluten flour and she also mentioned a protein content for bread flour of approximately 14%. Quite possibly the lines between what we now know as bread flour and high-gluten flour were starting to become blurred.

Since old habits die hard, I suspect that the transition by NYC pizza operators to high-gluten flours from the all-purpose and bread flours did not happen overnight. I wouldn't be surprised if it took several years for the transition to take hold, and that the process was gradual and perhaps accelerated when consumers started to indicate their preference or fondness for the pizzas made with high-gluten flours. it is also possible that pizza operators saw something functionally better using high-gluten flour. like more taste, better kneading and handling qualities, etc. And maybe they could charge more for their pizzas as a result.

Peter

OK lets do the flour thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_flour
Most people think that flour is just wheat that has been ground therefor making it flour. Well in the widest sense of the word that is true, but in the reality of the modern market most flours are propitiatory formulations developed to help ease a production method or to help increase profit. I think there is a difference in perspective from when I say flour from the flour available to the retail market.
When I go shopping for a flour the array of formulations offered by the differing mills is really incredible and not generally available for retail.
Here are some examples of flours you are likely to never see retailed from one of the largest milling companies ADM.
http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Pages/Pizza.aspx
This is but a small percentage of the flours created by ADM to choose from to make your pizza from.

Go nuts if you want and create your own flour formula. Take command of your gluten.
http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-Vital-Wheat-Gluten.pdf

Here is a great explanation of the differing flour and what they are.
http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/bakingdesserts/p/wheatflour.htm

So the high gluten flours have always been available to the pizza industry.
I have never seen any pizza shop use all purpose flour for pizza dough.

All the material you point to is geared towards the home market and not in the realm of goods available to the pizza shops.
Hence I think the fuzzy description of bread flour.  It seems to me that "Bread flour" or the better for bread series of flours came onto the retail shelf with the rise of the bread machines popularity. Wholesale they were always available. The retail term Bread flour really does not tell you much more then higher gluten then AP. It is usually the mills AP flour with added wheat gluten.   

Now let me stress that in all my years in the old school pizza shops I never once had a conversation with either the shop owners nor with other pizza makers about wheat content, gluten, yeast types etc. Most things were passed on in the do as Joe does method of education. I suspect the average home pizza maker on this board has a better knowledge and understanding  of pizza than the average paid pizza makers of then or now.

[Pete-zza]

Bubba,

Since Evelyne Slomon was writing her book for the benefit of mostly home pizza makers, the flours she mentioned in her book were flours that could be obtained at retail. These included Pillsbury, General Mills Gold Medal, and Hecker's (aka Ceresota), which Evelyne used in testing the recipes in her book. At the time, high-gluten flour as we now know it was not available at retail. Even today, it is hard to find at retail (as in supermarkets). However, Evelyne knew the old timers who made the NYC style of pizza. A lot of what she learned from the old masters is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148001.html#msg148001. One of the things she discussed in the context of the NY style dough and its evolution was the use by NY pizza operators of all-purpose flour. As I understand it, there are still pizza operators who specialize in the NY style who use all-purpose flour. For those who are interested, more of what Evelyne posted on the forum on the subject can be found via the links at Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148840.html#msg148840.

With respect to supplementing regular flours with vital wheat gluten, many of our members do that. In fact, there is even a tool at http://tools.foodsim.com/ (Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator) that shows how to do this. However, I am not aware of any flour that is sold by millers that is supplemented at the millers' facilities with vital wheat gluten, although I know that there are some pizza operators who do this, especially outside of the U.S. where flour options are poor or limited.

Peter

[Bubba Kuhn]

Bubba,

Since Evelyne Slomon was writing her book for the benefit of mostly home pizza makers, the flours she mentioned in her book were flours that could be obtained at retail. These included Pillsbury, General Mills Gold Medal, and Hecker's (aka Ceresota), which Evelyne used in testing the recipes in her book. At the time, high-gluten flour as we now know it was not available at retail. Even today, it is hard to find at retail (as in supermarkets). However, Evelyne knew the old timers who made the NYC style of pizza. A lot of what she learned from the old masters is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148001.html#msg148001. One of the things she discussed in the context of the NY style dough and its evolution was the use by NY pizza operators of all-purpose flour. As I understand it, there are still pizza operators who specialize in the NY style who use all-purpose flour. For those who are interested, more of what Evelyne posted on the forum on the subject can be found via the links at Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148840.html#msg148840.

With respect to supplementing regular flours with vital wheat gluten, many of our members do that. In fact, there is even a tool at http://tools.foodsim.com/ (Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator) that shows how to do this. However, I am not aware of any flour that is sold by millers that is supplemented at the millers' facilities with vital wheat gluten, although I know that there are some pizza operators who do this, especially outside of the U.S. where flour options are poor or limited.

Peter

Peter thanks for the links. A Great read. I was unaware of this body of information. After reading the posts I must say that
I relate to many of the things expressed in her posts about pizza making in general. Especially about the death knell of the art of hand made pizza and the rise of the franchise. I have not shared with the board the original dough recipe that I was taught as a boy as it was taught to me the same way that Evelyne points out by house scoop and open measure and dough feel.  Most of these methods finished with slowly tipping in the water at the end of the mix to fine tune the "feel" hydration of the dough. I also found that this was the time you were most likely to strip a gear in the mixer. This is the way I have always made dough.

To formulate the recipes I have given this board I used containers of know large weights. Then I produce the recipe the way I normally cook by hand and eye and taste. Then I re-weigh the ingredients to deduce the measures to capture the dough I make.   She says a year at mixing dough to get the drift is correct. And I say another year tending ovens to learn how to cook a pie right was in order too.

I never ran into the Brooklyn coal oven pizza community and can not speak to it as a personal experience.
I am of the deck oven and Hobart 60 quart mixer with a c hook and a meat grinder attachment for making dough, sausage and grinding cheese era. 
 
Although I have worked in shops that used most all methods of production from warm table dough left out all shift and never chilled to full franchise style chain drive ovens and screens and delivery drivers. Even worked an oven called a Rotoflex that turned like a rotisserie at a place called the flying pie in Portland Oregon.  I hated that oven. I love nothing better then what I call the old brick and board method of pizza making. Hot brick a wooden board and spinning dough. It is the most fun as a job and it makes one of the best pizzas in my opinion. In the eyes of a child there is Santa Clause and the guy who spins the pizza dough. The first time they see the dough loft over their heads and getting ever larger they know Santa must be real too.
Pizza makers are held in great company in the minds of kids. As a Chef I feel that the most satisfying culinary art form I know is spinning dough in the round 'pun intended' with an open station and a crowd of kids cheering you on.     

[Glutenboy]

1) Thanks, Peter, for being like a search engine with a heart!  This forum would be a haystack full of needles if not for you.  It's funny how the old pizzamakers we look to as the original authorities often put so much less thought into the process than everyone here.  It's hard to backward engineer something that wasn't necessarily engineered in the first place.

2) Bubba, it's nice to hear your perspective about making the dough by feel and THEN recording the recipes by weight.  In the end, I always wind up going by the "feel" of the dough.  I follow my formula as a guideline, but rarely does it not need a tweak before it handles the way I think it should.  And if it doesn't feel right, it usually doesn't make the pizza I'm looking for even if all the numbers are correct.  Though I do the majority of my work by mixer, I always hand knead as well because it's the only way I know if I got it right.