Anyone making NY style with Organic flour?

[AnnieK]

Hey All-

I am wondering if anyone on this forum has had any luck making a NY style pie using an organic flour?

If so; I am wondering what you have done differently ingredient/additive wise in order to use it!

I have had a couple of disappointing attempts trying out a few organic options, but would love to eventually hit the nail on the head and switch to organic.

To give a little more info on my trial and error attempts; I have only subbed out the flour, and kept everything else in my recipe the same. I currently use All Trumps, so my guess is that by removing all the enriched goodies added to the AT, my recipe is going to have to change somewhat.

Just curious if anyone has had any luck! I did a search on here but seem to have only found a handful of home cooks using it, and usually with the Neapolitan.

Thanks!

[scott r]

Hi, I just got a bag of the sperry organic bread flour today on the advice of marc (widespread pizza).     Im doing a shootout with all trumps (non bromated) and harvest king....all three mixed exactly the same way with the same ingredients, but I accounted for the absorption ratings of the flours.    Ill get back here and let you know how it goes.

Since most organic flours are not malted you will probably want to add some sugar or other sweeteners (I favor honey) to get a little more browning if your cooking at standard 550ish temps.    If you are afraid to get the flavor of a sweetener you might want to try some of the diastatic malt powder that you can can mail order from king arthur.

If you are used to using using bromated all trumps (the bag will have red lettering) you might want to try a poolish to strengthen the dough.   It tends to lighten the finished dough texture a bit like bromate does.   Its not going to act exactly like a bromated flour, but I think you will be quite happy with the results.   You could also try a slightly longer mix time.

Good luck!!!!

[AnnieK]

Hey thanks Scott! I am interested in hearing about your results!

I have been using non-bromated for about a year now, and did some recipe revamping in order to get the same results. So at least it's probably a bit smaller of a step to the organic from the non-bromate.

I'll look into the malts. Yes, I am not getting the same browning with the organic, that's interesting.

Thanks!

[scott r]

Annie, I have been working with sperry organic bread flour the past two weeks and im sold.     Its really easy to work with and mixes up extra smooth like full strength/all trumps or an italian 00.  The pizza and bread I have been making with it has been turning out especially good for a non bromated flour (which I prefer only at lower to medium temps).  I think it may have replaced three flours in my pantry (I was blending non bromated all trumps with 00 or using harvest king).    Its no problem to get more browning out of it by adding malt.   Some sugar/honey works too if you dont mind a touch of sweetness in the flavor. At high temps you don't need to add anything and the browning is perfect.    Sperry seems to have more flavor than harvest king, which for me was always the HK weakness.   WFO guys are going to love this flour!

[widespreadpizza]

Scott,  glad to hear it is working out.  How much was the bag and where did you get it?  Does it handle a lot of water like I remember?  -Marc

[scott r]

It definitely handles more water than harvest king, but it doesnt seem unusual to me.  I think its at a really nice sweet spot protein wise for what I mostly do (higher temp NY coal style).      Im buying you a bag next time I grab one.   Its at Reinhardt who has taken over natco.    Unfortunately they closed the cash and carry locations down here, but they are now set up to sell out of the warehouse.      

[scott123]

Annie, I'm a little late to this conversation, but would like to add a few thoughts.

First of all, you really shouldn't test a 13% flour with a formula geared for a 14% flour. To judge it fairly, you'll want to reduce the water to compensate for the lower protein.  There's no exact science for this, but I'd suggest around a 3% reduction in hydration going from 14 to 13, seeing what kind of consistency/tackiness you get and then adjusting from there. A more protein appropriate hydration should go a long way in helping oven spring and browning.

From the research that I've done, depending on your fermentation time frame, adding more sugar doesn't necessarily give you more browning, at least, it may not give you the browning you were getting with the malted flour.  I still have more research to do, but it looks like added sugar tends to get consumed by the yeast, especially in higher yeast, same day ferments. I know that yeast have a preference for different kinds of sugars (Peter would know more about that), so there may be a particular type of sugar that might survive longer than another, but, I think when browning is the goal, enzymes are the better choice. Annie, your bake time/previous flours produced a pretty golden brown delicious (GBD) end product. If these non malted flours aren't giving you the browning you're looking for, you can play around with adding sugar, but I think diastatic malt will go further. I also think you can improve your residual sugar by lowering your yeast a bit and extending the fermentation time. The diastatic malt adds enzymes and the extended fermentation time allows the enzymes in the flour to do more work. Refresh my memory, how long are you fermenting now?

It took me a long time to change my ways because it challenged my concepts of authenticity, but I would consider a bulk ferment. The poolish Scott recommended is most likely along similar lines, but depending on your workflow, this might be easier for you.  I was highly skeptical for a long time, but now I'm a believer. Anything you can do to charge your dough with a good dose of pre-balling CO2 will go a long way to compensate for loss of oven spring when you drop the bromate.

[Pete-zza]

scott123,

As you can see, Annie has posted over at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13262, and has gotten a few responses and is awaiting answers to other questions. Maybe when she responds to your questions, there will be more to say on the subject.

Peter

[AnnieK]

Hey Guys-

Thanks for all the thoughts. I did know about lowering the hydration to compensate for the protein content. I will try a batch like that.

To answer some questions; I try to do an overnight ferment....most times it works. One extra busy days though we end up breaking into same day dough by the evening rush, so in that case you are talking about an 8 hour ferment time. I wish I could say that we could always overnight ferment, but unfortunately that is just not the case. We have limited walk-in space, and are really busy, especially this time of year. (I know, good problem to have).

I'm curious about the bulk ferment idea? did I understand correct that you are letting it ferment prior to balling it? how long?

We've kind of actually been working to move away from the GBD, and really allowing for the crust to get darker/more bubbles, etc. The times I have tested the organic flour, I'm just not getting either. I think that was the suggestion to use more sugar that was posted.

So far I've also had a suggestion to increase my yeast amount....

Finally; what percentage of diastic malts are suggested?

Thanks!

[scott123]

scott123,

As you can see, Annie has posted over at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13262, and has gotten a few responses and is awaiting answers to other questions. Maybe when she responds to your questions, there will be more to say on the subject.

Peter

Thanks, Peter, for bringing that to my attention.  It looks like Tom and I are on the same page- this time 

[scott123]

Annie, countless NY places do same day doughs, but, unfortunately, these same places produce nondescript, taste deprived crusts. I know business is good, and that's great, but if you really want a product that competes on a national level, you've got to find a way to extend that ferment.  Considering your spacial concerns, a bulk ferment (fermenting the dough in one big mass prior to balling) might be the perfect fit. Bulk fermenting both saves space, and accelerates fermentation, giving you a more developed/more flavorful dough in a shorter amount of time.

How long of a bulk ferment? I don't know... long enough would be the best answer  Bulk ferments are very flexible.  Instead of me telling you x hours, you should look at your schedule and see how many hours you can leave the dough unballed for and when balling is most convenient.  I wouldn't do 8 hour total bulk/balled ferment because you're talking about too few hours of bulk and are also encroaching on the necessary post balled resting window for manageable dough. How about making the dough at night, bulking 2 nights (36 hours) and then balling in the morning? Can your walk-in handle 2 day's worth of bulk dough (in large buckets) along with a day's worth of balled dough?  If you can do that, then, when things get busy, you'll be balling up the 12 hour bulked dough rather than starting from scratch in the AM like you are now.

36 hours could be pushing it a bit on a bulk, but I'd like to make sure you have a back up dough in case you need it. I'm curious, is the reason you can't make the dough at night because you don't have enough space for the dough balls? I think bulking at night and balling in the morning would be perfect- if you could guarantee that you could always bulk at night and ball in the AM. 

You can room temp bulk, but it helps to have a place with consistent room temps.  If you've got seasonal fluctuations in temperatures, though, that translates into greater complexity on the yeast quantity and/or water temp side. It can be done, though. It would be way better to do room temp bulks with inconsistent seasonal temps and make a few errors compensating than to do the occasional same day.  Anything is going to be better than a same day.

[bfguilford]

I have been using a few of Central Milling's organic flours in my beginner's quest, with good results. I've been baking no-knead bread with their flour for a while.

I have made pies with 100% Artisan Bakers Craft (ABC) unmalted flour (11.5% protein); and 75% unmalted ABC mixed with 25% Artisan Old Country Type 85 Malted (12.5% protein). I'm waiting for my next shipment from them which will include ABC malted, Type 85 Malted, and Type 00 Normal (11.2% protein). I bake in my home oven on a stone at 515 degrees (as high as it will go), and have been using JerryMac's NY dough.

Before I place my last order, I had a conversation with their resident guru and all-around-good-guy, Nicky Giusto about malted vs unmalted. He suggested using malted flour under around 620 degrees (if I remember correctly), and unmalted above that. My own experience with using the malted Type 85 is that it browns quite a bit more quickly and improves the crumb (opens the crumb structure up) in the bread. We'll see how it works with pizza, as well as seeing how the Type 00 works in small amounts.

Hope that helps.

[AnnieK]

Thank you for that. I have been trying to get Central Milling flour, but unfortunately no one distributes it in my area. I've even talked to Nicky about this a few times and we just can't make it work out, which is a bummer, that was the first flour I zeroed in on and wanted to try.
Interesting that they offer a malted flour tho.

I'm still sort of in the waiting game with vendors on what I can actually get brand-wise, so haven't had as much time to experiment as I would have liked. I'll post up some results once I get more trial bags to work with!

[bfguilford]

Thank you for that. I have been trying to get Central Milling flour, but unfortunately no one distributes it in my area. I've even talked to Nicky about this a few times and we just can't make it work out, which is a bummer, that was the first flour I zeroed in on and wanted to try.
Interesting that they offer a malted flour tho.

I'm still sort of in the waiting game with vendors on what I can actually get brand-wise, so haven't had as much time to experiment as I would have liked. I'll post up some results once I get more trial bags to work with!

If you're only looking for smaller quantities, they will ship four 5 lb bags in a USPS large flat rate box ($15.75 shipping to me, in CT). It's certainly not cheap, but I love their flour. When I went out there to visit, I tried to convince Nicky that opening up a distribution center on the east coast was a good idea (and even offered to help him do that), but he's got his hands full on the other coast, and is very environmentally conscious and doesn't like the idea of shipping large quantities all the way here. Sigh...

[corkd]

I use organic bread flour from champlain valley milling, for both NY style pizza & tartine bread, with excellent results. I get it through our food co-op here in Upstate NY.

http://www.grownyc.org/wholesale/grains/mills/champlain

clay

[AnnieK]

If you're only looking for smaller quantities, they will ship four 5 lb bags in a USPS large flat rate box ($15.75 shipping to me, in CT). It's certainly not cheap, but I love their flour. When I went out there to visit, I tried to convince Nicky that opening up a distribution center on the east coast was a good idea (and even offered to help him do that), but he's got his hands full on the other coast, and is very environmentally conscious and doesn't like the idea of shipping large quantities all the way here. Sigh...

While you are at it could you convince him to open a Colorado distribution center?..... Yeah, I am looking at about 1000 pounds a week, a little too much for the good ol' postal service.

[bfguilford]

While you are at it could you convince him to open a Colorado distribution center?..... Yeah, I am looking at about 1000 pounds a week, a little too much for the good ol' postal service.

Yup... we're in different leagues, but hey it would only be 50 boxes a week... you'd be the USPS's best customer in the area. They might even put a statue of you outside the local post office.  

[bfguilford]

Annie:

I don't know if you saw this thread on Bay State organic bread flour: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19209.0

What caught my eye was this:

For you Colorado Front Range folks - You can purchase the Bay State Milling products, on a cash and carry basis, at their mill at:
400 Platte Street  Platteville, CO 80651
888-785-7636

Not sure which bay they're talking about...

Barry