Author Topic: My first pizza!  (Read 5537 times)

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Offline cdodson

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2005, 11:17:50 AM »
Thanks, buzz!  I wonder if the oil overload contributed to the shrinking...
Carey

The power of cheese


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2005, 04:09:41 PM »
Carey,

Congratulations on surviving the pizza marathon, and thanks for posting all the photos and the accompanying commentary. I thoroughly enjoyed reading everything.

Like Buzz, I wondered about the 9 tablespoons of total oil for 2 cups of flour. I measured out 2 cups of King Arthur all-purpose flour on my digital scale this afternoon, and I estimate that the total oil logs in at around 34%. Interestingly, when I weighed out 1 3/4 cups of the KA flour and calculated the weight of 6 tablespoons of total oil, which I believe represents the experiment Buzz says he plans to try, I got 33.5% total oil. So, unless my methodology and/or math were flawed, it looks like you essentially performed the dough experiment Buzz is planning to try.

I wondered more about the length of the fermentation of your doughs, all of which was at room temperature. Buzz specifies around 8 hours room-temperature fermentation as a typical case. I would be interested in hearing what your dough looked and felt like after a much longer room-temperature fermentation, and especially if there were signs of overfermentation, such as a very slack dough or one prone to tears forming. I speculate that the high percentage of total oil might restrain the rate and amount of dough expansion and forestall the likelihood of overfermenting, but I don't recall ever using such a long room-temperature fermentation with a dough with so much oil. My practice with Buzz's recipes has been to use a combination of room-temperature fermentation and refrigeration, or refrigeration alone, with a 1 to 2 hour counter warm-up before using. 

In seeing your dough after you rolled it out, folded it into quarters, and rerolled it out again, I was reminded of a technique I used with Buzz's original recipe to try to keep the rolled out dough in a round shape at all stages. Specifically, I took the dough ball, divided it into two equal pieces, rolled one of the dough pieces out into a first round skin, put the second dough piece on top of the first skin, flattened it, and then rolled it out on top of the first skin, effectively forming a "laminated" assembly. After folding in the edges of the two skins and sealing the exposed edges, I rolled out the lamination to its final size to be fitted into the deep-dish pan. In retrospect, I think it might have been better to roll out the two dough pieces into separate skins (round), superimpose them, and then finish rolling out the lamination to its final desired size for fitting into the pan. Either way, the finished assembly would be round at all times, rather than an oblong or irregular shape that results from trying to roll out a skin that has been folded into quarters.

I also tried a three-skin lamination with cold dabs of butter between the layers. That produced an interesting flaky texture in the crust. My experiments were tried with Buzz's original recipe that uses around 10-12% total oil (by my calculation), so I don't know how they will work with a dough with more than double that amount of total oil (by baker's percent). I offer up these possibilities with the hope that you will experiment with them, and possibly benefit from them and improve upon them, in your future efforts. (BTW, I reported on my experiments on the thread where I have been trying to reverse-engineer Buzz's many experiments to find the ideal Giordano's style deep-dish dough.)

I though I might also mention that for your friend who is allergic to cheese there is an alternative that might be worth considering, should you make another deep-dish pie for her to sample. It is a non-dairy, soy-based “mozzarella” cheese. Soy-based mozzarella is a firm, mild (but pleasant) tasting, vegetable form of mozzarella cheese made principally from soybeans. It looks very much like regular mozzarella cheese, shreds and slices just like regular mozzarella cheese, and can be used on a pizza just like regular mozzarella cheese. It will melt without any significant browning and it will be chewy and almost indistinguishable on (or in) a baked pizza from regular mozzarella cheese. However, it will not be as flavorful as regular mozzarella cheese, and certainly not as tasty or flavorful as fresh mozzarella cheese. In addition to being a dairy-free product, it is also lactose- and cholesterol-free, so it offers clear advantages to persons who are lactose intolerant or are on low-fat or low-cholesterol diets. I have used it in deep-dish pies along with regular mozzarella cheese and provolone cheese and could not detect its presence. I have experimented with a few brands (basic soy mozzarella only, not the ones with other things mixed in) that I found at a Whole Foods store. I have not tried soy mozzarella alone in a deep-dish pie, but with all the powerful flavors in such a pie I think your friend will still enjoy eating it.

Peter

 


Offline cdodson

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2005, 02:34:14 PM »
Hi Pete-zza,

Wow, I really appreciate the thoroughness of your observations and explanations.  Ever think of becoming a culinary instructor?  It is new to me to think in terms of percentages.  I don't own a set of digital scales but I recall reading elsewhere in this forum that is a required acquisition if one is to take their cooking craft seriously.  I find that many times I need to read your answers several times before it sinks in as to what you are referring to.  I appreciate the opportunity to learn from you.

Next time I roll out the dough, I will try the double roll dough ball idea you suggested.  I do recall reading the triple layer roll that you did on your thin crust.  I've earmarked it for when I roll out a thin crust pizza.  There is a lot of basic concepts of baking that I'm just now starting to be aware of.  For instance, I didn't know that by allowing the dough to rise at room temperature that you are actually allow the dough to ferment.

Thank you for the cheese suggestions.  I had asker her if she could have soy and she explained that it gives her headaches.  That is when she told me that she can eat rice-based cheese.  In speaking with my friend last night it turns out that she ate the whole thing after she took home 2/3 of it.  Maybe she liked the cheddar after all.

I made three more pizzas yesterday (sorry, no photos).  This time I cut the oil back to 6 TBS.  The pizzas themselves were lighter.  The crust would have been fine had I not left them in the oven too long.  I used the oven at my work and did not anticipate that it would be done so quickly.  Rookie mistake.  ??? In the two ovens I've used so far I'm finding that 20-23 minutes is the ideal cooking time.
Carey

The power of cheese

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2005, 03:37:05 PM »
Carey,

Thank you for the compliments. I'm happy to help you in any way I can.

I was thinking of percentages when you made your recent doughs because I knew from my research on deep-dish doughs that the range of oil by baker's percent (the ratio of the weight of oil to the weight of flour) is something like 4% to 25%. When I calculated that your use of oil was over 30%, that jumped out at me because I had never seen that high a percentage for deep-dish in the literature. Adding over 40% water (by weight of flour), it struck me that the dough would be quite wet overall. That is why I wondered what the dough looked and felt like when the time came to use the dough.

FYI, the fermentation process essentially begins when the yeast in the dough is fed by sugar and, through a series of steps not material here, produces carbon dioxide--which is what causes a dough to rise--and alcohol. The sugar comes from several sources within the flour itself (there are enzymes that help extract the sugar bound up in the starch) and from any sugar or other sweetener that is added to the dough ingredients at the outset. The fermentation can take place entirely at room temperature, in the refrigerator, or a combination of both. The fermentation process will be slower in the refrigerator, because of the lower temperatures of a refrigerator, but the process is still taking place. It's only when the yeast runs out of food (sugar) that the dough starts to head south and to degrade (overferment) and possibly collapse. In your case, 18 hours of room temperature fermentation (plus any added counter time) would be considered long for a dough made with all-purpose flour. That's why I wondered whether your dough might have overfermented, or whether it was spared that result because of the very high (by normal standards) amounts of oil. Can you describe what your dough looked and felt like when time came to make the pizzas? And whether you experienced any problems with tears forming in the dough as you tried to shape it? I haven't had that experience with a dough containing as much oil as you used, so you will be teaching me something :).

Peter

Offline cdodson

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2005, 03:58:15 PM »
Can you describe what your dough looked and felt like when time came to make the pizzas? And whether you experienced any problems with tears forming in the dough as you tried to shape it?

Peter

It is a bit challenging for me to describe the difference in the dough given my novice level of working with dough.  However I can say that to a minor extent the dough appeared somewhat "sweaty".  I didn't really  notice any tears but there were places where it seemed to stretch thin.  One other key fact I discovered yesterday is this: I'm not using All-Purpose Flour after all.  I was reading over the label and what I have is King Arthur's Bread flour.  Another rookie mistake. :-\
Carey

The power of cheese

Offline buzz

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2005, 10:11:06 AM »
Pete--

That's a good idea about your laminating process--I have to try that next time!

Carey--

AP is better for deep dish--less gluten!

Offline chiguy

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2005, 07:40:18 PM »
 Hi, Members
 I tried this deep dish recipe from PMQ archives and tweaked it a bit.
 100% FLOUR all-purpose(about2 1/3 cup)
 40%   WATER
 1%      SALT
 1 1/4%SUGAR
 3/4%  In Dry Yeast
 14%   Oil
 I mixed in Kitchen Aid for 2 mins all but the oil , it seemed a little dry and the dough was not coming  together well, i hand to stop and pull it off sides. after it began to form up i added the oil, another 1 1/2 mins i took it out and work it on  a very light floured surface until it was just mixed together(buzz's idea). The recipe called for  8min of mixing until the dough was soft and pliable, but i had the feeling i was never going to achieve this. and i never did. Took temperature of dough at 82 Degrees, oiled it, into the fridge it went 22hrs. Dough didnt quite double. The dough ball was only 21 oz for 13in x 1 1/2 pan, this is a personal preference, i was hoping to have a thinner more malanatis type crust. I sprayed pan w/t canola oil Pressed relaxed dough into pan and ran it up the sides. added Sliced provalone, 4oz of pressed sausage over cheese, and then added my sauce recipe. baked at 375 for 45 mins. The pizza did taste a bit like Unos and a bit like Malanati's with the exception of a bit more of a crunch. I did enjoy it, could have been a bit more tender, i don't know if it could be my thinner crust or the lack of hydration. It was without exception one of my better attempts ;D. Here are some pics minus 2 eaten pieces, i hope these upload.               Chiguy   
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 07:50:56 PM by chiguy »

Offline buzz

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Re: My first pizza!
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2005, 08:43:18 AM »
Try it again with less mixing/kneading time and see what happens!