"Old" New User Here

[scarboni]

I am uploading a video of me rolling the dough around a bit so that you can see the texture. I will try to get a video of the whole process next time. I am 100% sure I could have done this better, but I don't have a lot of experience "hand kneading" Pizza Dough. That being said, it seems like it looks pretty good....Sunday will tell the tale. =P

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuzHwU6iEzE&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuzHwU6iEzE&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

[scarboni]

And here's what the dough looked like a half hour later:

<a href="http://youtu.be/jkhtPNB3p44" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/jkhtPNB3p44</a>

My apologies for any foul language heard in the background. =p

[jason83]

Looks good!  What kind of oven is it going into on sunday?

[scarboni]

A Marsal MB60 (one of the perks of working in a pizzeria =p)

[scarboni]

So this is what the dough looks like after a 13hr. room temp ferment and a couple of rolls.

[scarboni]

Cutting and balling.

[scarboni]

 continued...

[scarboni]

Balled and ready to sit in the cooler until tomorrow! =P

[Jackie Tran]

Scarboni, what an honor and pleasure it is to have another experienced pizza professional join the ranks and share his knowledge with the collective.  Pizza making is funny in that there are so many different ways to make it, but in the end you are right, it's how it turns out that matters.  Texture, flavor, and the experience of eating it hot from the oven is what matters.

Though this site contains a lot of pizza makers and knowledge, it is severely anemic in members who are willing to video their process for review.  We have a lot of experts here, and most everyone has a camera capable of taking video, but yet very few are willing to put their work up to be reviewed and critiqued.

Having said that, I'm thrilled that you jumped in with both hands to share your process.  Your first mistake is to use caputo in any blend to be baked at low temps and your 2nd is that you bulked the dough for 13 hours.  Neither of these steps are considered "traditional" for NY pizza.    Of course, I am only being facetious and totally kidding here and not a traditionalist by nature.  . You of all people would know (much more than I) what traditional NY pizza is or isn't.   I have use caputo by itself and blended many times for great NY style pizza in the 3-5m bake range without any issues.  I have also tested short bulk vs long bulk times as well, and all the variations do produce different results, but it is the balance of the whole process that matters most.  Your dough looks great btw.  I have no doubt it will bake up really well.  

Scott are you catching all of these details.? Lots of different ways to make pizza my man.  Caputo blend, long bulk, low temps, reballs or stretch and folds, and 550-575F = 6 min plus bake.  

Scarboni, how much volume is the dough increasing during the bulk? Almost double or doubled or more? Also how much are you degassing the dough during the scaling and final balling process?  How much do the douhballs expand prior to baking?  Do they double again?  

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and pizza with us and a big welcome to you.

Chau

[scott123]

Scott are you catching all of these details.? Lots of different ways to make pizza my man.  Caputo blend, long bulk, low temps, reballs or stretch and folds, and 550-575F = 6 min plus bake.

No, Chau, I'm ignoring everything that doesn't support my pizzamaking paradigm. I reject your reality and substitute my own 

Seriously, though, I've never been that vocal about being against caputo blends or bulks (for Neo and Coal).  I've also, in my view, eaten a lot of crow regarding my previously incorrect stance on re-balls (and bulk for NY). I'm on board the bulk/re-ball train.

The 6 minute thing is purely subjective. You and Nick like crispier pizza than I do- that's all. I'll still be your friend at 6, but a part of me will still hope that you can eventually realize the error of your ways and come back to the 4 minute fold

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, you know I love teasing you when I get any opportunity, which is not that often.     I have been wrong about many things and will perhaps some day see the light and truth about the 4 min bake.  Until then though, it's tough to give up on that GBD.   . It's like a drug you know...

Kidding aside, it's great to have another slice lover on board.  

Chau

[Jet_deck]

Scarboni -- sorry if you have covered this, but, what temperature is the oven set at? 

[scott123]

Nick, the documentation you're doing is really fantastic.

While Chau's had a great time busting my balls about some of my core beliefs that have wavered over the years (I swear I'm not related in any way to Mitt Romney ), the one area where I haven't shifted is the concept of gluten fragility as it relates to passive/resting gluten development. It's important to remember that from the moment water hits flour, gluten begins to form, and the gluten development continues as the dough sits. Time = passive kneading. It's also important to keep in mind that gluten is mortal- that if you keep developing it, either with time or by kneading, it will start to break down, and, that, in a perfect scenario, you're baking the dough before the gluten starts degrading. Everything you do to dough adds up, and some things more than others.  As you move further along the fermentation process, I find that gluten becomes a lot more sensitive, so something like a stretch and fold at the beginning doesn't have the impact as a stretch and fold at the end of fermentation.

Your dough looks a bit on the wet side, and wet doughs are very forgiving when it comes to excess gluten development, but I still think you'd see better results letting the time do the kneading.  With cold ferments, I'm fine with bulks and reballs, but I always factor this additional manipulation into my gluten equation.  If I know I'm doing a reball, I'll stop kneading well before my dough is anywhere near smooth. Also, when I do a reball, because it's at a point in time when the gluten is so sensitive, I'm really gentle with it.  I don't fold the dough over itself again and again- just once. I don't do bulks right now, but, if I did, I'd be just as gentle.  For typical NY style hydrations, you can beat the dough up all you want while the protein is doing the bulk of it's hydrating (maybe 20 minutes total) but, after that, imo, it should really be kid gloves.

The reason I bring this up is because your dough looks smoother in the video (after the half hour rest) than it does in the 13 hour shots. I'm not saying the dough is ruined, but, I think you've pushed the gluten a bit past it's limits.

My only goal when mixing dough is to distribute the water evenly so I don't have wet spots.  Between my 48 hour ferment and re-ball, I get more than enough gluten development.

[scarboni]

Chau -

One of the ideas before adding the Caputo flour is so I can jack the heat up of the oven. I'm actually hoping I can jack this oven up to 625 min. for these pies! (I have some Bufala Mozz. waiting in the wings =p) 

After the 13 hours, the dough was a pinch more than doubled. In respect to degassing, I did very little and just gave it a couple of fold overs, resting for 5 mins. and then going straight into the balling. I balled 3 19oz. dough balls and had a little left over to spare.

I honestly can't tell at this point if they will double again...A great part of this is experimentation. For one thing, I kneaded the dough by hand, and for every bit of confidence I have in staring at a dough mix in the machine, I can't say the same when hand kneading. Furthermore, the longer bulk fermentations is something new to me. I made a pie a few weeks ago that had a killer flavor but lacked "decent" oven spring.

Here is the dough as it sits in the cooler right now:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FPj5mbNt6Y&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FPj5mbNt6Y&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

As far as being able to stretch it, it opens very easily. You will notice that I put a little hole in it, but that was from tearing into a part that was already stretched (excuses, excuses). =P

Scott -

This is truly where your expertise comes into play. I have a feeling that by the time this experiment is done, I will be able to look back at what you are saying about gluten development and begin to understand why I'm not getting the oven spring that I want. With Best, it was easy because we had so much yeast in the dough that there was enough Co2 for that baby to pop...of course, one of the downfalls of using a lot of yeast (at least it appeared to me) was that our shelf life was shortened and our ability to retain the carbon decreased as the dough aged.

Because I have 3 18" pies I am working with, I will try to do some experimentation on the other end as well. I can probably make one pie tonight in the evening (which would give it a 13hr. bulk and 13hr cold ferment). Then tomorrow, I will reball one and keep the other the same a couple of hours before baking and see what the results are then.

[scott123]

Nick, when you, like Best, make the dough with a load of yeast, give it a quick rise and then bake it off, you can knead the crap out of it at the onset.  When you start doing multiple day cold ferments, though, it really helps to keep in mind the impact cold fermentation has on gluten and to dial back the initial knead and minimize any other mid fermentation manipulation.

At least that's my theory on the subject.  I feel that dough rises the most when it's a tiny bit underdeveloped going into the oven, rather than having the gluten at it's peak or past that point. I feel like I get a bit better extensibility out of it, more manageability/less tearing and better oven spring.

[Tscarborough]

Scott, I am with you on that.  You can knead the crap out of it and use it right away, or you can assault the dough minimally and let time do the work.  I prefer to let time work the dough, not the fist.