Traditional NY Pizza is 16 and 18 Inch, Right? Why Don't More People Like?

[scott123]

I know Chickenparm aka Bill loves the large NY style Pies and so does Scott, Norma as well, I see Peter making large pies and others here but more than not don't seem to make these.

James, why does Bill get first mention? Have you read my posts? Steel plate, small thickness factors and larger pizzas are all I ever talk about. 

Seriously, though, bigger is always better.  I think a huge reason why many forum members make smaller pizzas is that they are exponentially easier to both stretch and to launch. Stretching and launching a .07 tf 16" pizza is pretty advanced pizzamaking.

As to why larger pizzas are inherently better.  First, as you go larger you get a larger ratio of cheese area to rim.  We go to great lengths to make great dough, which, in turn, creates great tasting rims, but, let's face it, when eating a piece of pizza, you want some rim, but not too much, and, as you get into smaller sizes, it's rim city.

Second, a larger slice has a stronger aesthetic, both visually and sensorially.  It's long and elegant, rather than short and squat, and it feels better in your hand.

[Don K]

Size does matter.

I'll never forget the first time I had a NY slice. I was visiting NYC and I met up with a friend of mine for pizza. I was pretty hungry, so I was thinking that maybe I should get two slices, but my friend said in his native NYC voice, "Get the f_ outta here, you don't need two." Well, I'm glad that I listened to him because, holy cow, this thing was huge! If it were much bigger it would have probably been nearly the same as eating a whole 12" pie.

When I make pizza at home, I'm usually making for at least 6 people, but sometimes as many as 20. When I first started out, I would make 18" pies because they were the biggest that I could fit in my oven. After a while, I realized that it was easier to work with 16" pies so I settled on that size.

Then I installed our current in-wall oven. The first time I made pizza in it, I went lo load the first one and, uh oh, I discovered that the oven wasn't quite deep enough for a 16" pie. I ended up cutting part of it off to make it fit. So now I make 14" pizzas. The new oven is a double oven and I have worked out a pretty good system where I can crank out a bunch of pies relatively quickly using both ovens.

Actually, I have found that there is another benefit to making smaller pies. Everyone wants their own topping combinations, so when I used to make bigger pies I would end up making 1/4 this and 1/4 that, etc. It would get kind of complicated and it made cutting the pizza more difficult. With smaller pies, it easier because I rarely end up with less than 1/2 of any topping combination.

Sometimes I make 10" or 12" pies when I'm experimenting with dough or different toppings. It really doesn't make much sense to go any smaller than that because it's kind of hard to get any kind of taper with such a small pizza.

[communist]

I am recording this thread on a soiled pizza napkin as the great Scott speaks, and James disseminates his beliefs to his disciples.  I will preserve it for posterity!  Mark  

[PizzaEater101]

James, why does Bill get first mention? Have you read my posts? Steel plate, small thickness factors and larger pizzas are all I ever talk about.  

Seriously, though, bigger is always better.  I think a huge reason why many forum members make smaller pizzas is that they are exponentially easier to both stretch and to launch. Stretching and launching a .07 tf 16" pizza is pretty advanced pizzamaking.

As to why larger pizzas are inherently better.  First, as you go larger you get a larger ratio of cheese area to rim.  We go to great lengths to make great dough, which, in turn, creates great tasting rims, but, let's face it, when eating a piece of pizza, you want some rim, but not too much, and, as you get into smaller sizes, it's rim city.

Second, a larger slice has a stronger aesthetic, both visually and sensorially.  It's long and elegant, rather than short and squat, and it feels better in your hand.

LOL, sorry Scott his theatrical agent struck a deal with me so that Bill's name would appear first on the marquee!

I like your reason about the ratio of cheese to rim.  That makes good sense.  True a small pizza slice with a big rim is like eating a loaf of bread.  So that reason makes sense.  True I like the aesthetic point your bring up.  I think that's my big reason I prefer a 18 inch pie or even 16 is good.

Sometimes I go to a place called Big Mama and Papa's.  They make mega pizzas -

I got this pic off the net.  This is no one I know but it's true the pizza slice is this big.  Sure this lady is kinda petite but even for a big guy like me the pizza slice is really big.  A friend and I going there for the first time almost ordered two pieces but didn't know if we'd want one or two slices so went with one and figured we'd order another after if we were hungry.  Well we found out that one piece was mega and it's good we did not order two (although for pizza I could eat two of these mega slices because I love pizza and have an appetite to match if necessary)

Not the first or the last to have a mega pizza but here is some YouTube video of it.  My sound is out so don't know what they are saying but it's obvious it's a giant pizza -

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as0FnFmCF1U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as0FnFmCF1U</a>

[PizzaEater101]

I am recording this thread on a soiled pizza napkin as the great Scott speaks, and James disseminates his beliefs to his disciples.  I will preserve it for posterity!  Mark  

LOL, I'm both born-again Christian and born-again Pizza Eater (101).

[chickenparm]

NY style tastes best when folded and eaten.That said,the larger the slice,the more flavorful it seems to be.

I didn't understand it,but anytime I ordered a small pie or made a small one at home,it was good but for some reason did not have the taste the larger ones did.

Also,the smaller pies are a bit thicker at times and I believe its what Scott has been preaching about.The long thinner centers can taste amazing with the sauce and cheese,so the TF comes into play.

I can make 18 inch pies since my electric oven can hold one that larger.The stone I have is 18x22 so that helps to launch larger pies.Also,many folks can use screens to launch a pie a bit larger than their stone and after 2-3 minutes,they can remove the screen and let the pie finish on the stone.I have done that several times with the smaller stone.

I have not been posting here much and will try and load some new pics later on.Scott,Im not sure if you know,I have a Fibrament stone,18x22 and 3/4 thick, that my wife purchased for me as a surprise some time back,and it works so well,Im not even sure if I will ever need to go steel.(I can just see you shaking your head)
 

So the steel is going to wait.That said,Im making the best pies ever.If Im not careful,the bottom can char too much or possibly blacken by 4 1/2- 5 minutes.Most of the pies I have been making are done by 4 minutes.The stone shows around 610-620 degrees at times,but I seem to found a balance when its around 550.A few times,the cheese bubbled up so much it started to go over the rim.Most of the pies I make have a nice spotted char on the bottom and blondish rim.The cheese bubbles like crazy but when out of the oven,relaxes and stays white.I have not browned or burned any cheese yet.
 

Sorry to go off subject James,the point is having the right oven size and/or stone/plate/screen can help someone launch larger pies or slices.

 

-Bill

[PizzaEater101]

Bill, excellent points.  Thanks for your input on this subject. 

You are correct about the size of the oven.  My oven isn't all that big so I think the most I can get is a 16 inch stone and I say the most, so my pie will be 15 inch max or maybe 16 if I use the screen then when it's partially baked place on the stone.  Norma is great at landing a 16 inch pie on the 16 stone but not sure if I could really do that. I might overshoot and make a big mess.

Curious do you have an oven within and oven?  I mean a stone or tiles on the rack above the pizza or just the Fibrament? 

[chickenparm]

Bill, excellent points.  Thanks for your input on this subject. 

You are correct about the size of the oven.  My oven isn't all that big so I think the most I can get is a 16 inch stone and I say the most, so my pie will be 15 inch max or maybe 16 if I use the screen then when it's partially baked place on the stone.  Norma is great at landing a 16 inch pie on the 16 stone but not sure if I could really do that. I might overshoot and make a big mess.

Curious do you have an oven within and oven?  I mean a stone or tiles on the rack above the pizza or just the Fibrament? 

James,

Its just the Fibrament stone on the lowest rack.Its easy in my case to make an oven within an oven if I put a large pan or foil onto the middle rack,but I do not do that often.One reason,its very simple,if I want a more well done top,I will launch the pie onto the bottom stone,and wait 2-3 minutes,then turn the broiler on.When its lit up,Then I will move the pie to the highest rack right under the broiler element and by 20 seconds its blistering the rim and browning the cheese in some spots.

Theres nothing magical about any of it,it just works in my oven.One day when I do try a steel plate,I may use the fibrament for a ceiling if I want to create an internal oven.

 

[PizzaEater101]

PizzaEater101:  Here is a link to the tiles I use.  They do crack on occasion but a case has lasted me over 5 years and we make 20-30 pizzas a week on them.  I bake a 530 degrees.  People out here in ohio love greasy pepperoni on their pies.  That makes a mess on the stones often and I run the oven through the clean cycle with the stones in.  I have cracked a few doing this but the stones come out clean as new.   Thanks on the ovens!  I will be hardpressed to make them on the home oven at school and at my house but when summer vacation comes I will have no choice.  Walter

http://www.fastfloors.com/tile-stone/daltile/quarry-tile-6-x-6-non-abrasive

walter, thanks for the suggestion of daltile.

Scott has been helping me figure out how to get a good home setup in the oven for pizza making. He also suggested Daltile. I had a bad time with Saltillo tiles because they break all the time in my own but Scott suggest that I might have more longevity with these.

I did go to Home Depot to try to find some because at their web page they show they carry them but when I went to two different HDs they told me they are not in store but only order over the net. That's fine but I thought I would be able to cash and carry them from the store.  So I go to Lowes and same thing too.  The lady at Lowes was so helpful.  She knew a lot about these tiles.  I did not say I was gonna cook on them but I asked how these were compared to Saltillo tiles and she sounded as if she didn't think much of Saltillo.  She said that these Daltile are much stronger.  They are commercial grade and can withstand more stress or weight.  I guess she is thinking of people walking on them.  Also much more heat.  Funny because I did not say I was cooking with them so if she assumes I am making a floor with them how much heat could be involved?  100 F hot So Cal summer day?  Not 550-650 oven temp.  But she regardless mentioned some outrageous temp they can take without cracking.  She said the process of which these Daltile are made vs those Saltillos.  So from what you recommend and Scott does and what this lady says about these I think I'd win with these.  


Thanks

[scott123]

I have not been posting here much and will try and load some new pics later on.Scott,Im not sure if you know,I have a Fibrament stone,18x22 and 3/4 thick, that my wife purchased for me as a surprise some time back,and it works so well,Im not even sure if I will ever need to go steel.(I can just see you shaking your head)
 

So the steel is going to wait.That said,Im making the best pies ever.If Im not careful,the bottom can char too much or possibly blacken by 4 1/2- 5 minutes.Most of the pies I have been making are done by 4 minutes.The stone shows around 610-620 degrees at times,but I seem to found a balance when its around 550.A few times,the cheese bubbled up so much it started to go over the rim.Most of the pies I make have a nice spotted char on the bottom and blondish rim.The cheese bubbles like crazy but when out of the oven,relaxes and stays white.I have not browned or burned any cheese yet.
 

Bill, my hatred of fibrament stems from the fact that it's poor conductivity makes it relatively worthless in typical 500-550 home ovens.  With your freakishly hotter oven, though, it can (and apparently does) work well. Now, as to how much color you might be getting with Fibrament at 550 in 4 minutes, I'd probably be ready to debate that but I can definitely visualize Fibrament working beautifully somewhere between 550 and 620.

Now, you do happen to be one of the few NY style aficionados on this forum, that, like myself, doesn't have too much of a crispy fetish. With your soft puffy inclinations, I would think that a 3 minute lightly leoparded undercrust might be a nice change of pae. You can get that will steel.  If you're happy with 4 minutes, though, then there's no reason to ever seek out steel.  I have to be honest, I have a stone with 3 minute potential, but I don't break out the 3 minute pies more than once a year.

[waltertore]

PizzaEater101:  I think you will like the Daletile.  My pies pass the test of my family and friends from NYC and Essex County NJ when they have come to visit us (CA, TX, and now OH).  On a recent trip back home to NJ I brought the tiles with me and made pies for longtime friends/family and lifetime NJ residents and hardcore pizza lovers.  I make the traditional tossed Jersey/NYC pie.  They agreed the pies would make it in a NJ pizzeria.  An idea to consider-I have stacked them 2-3 high in an older oven I had.  The shelves were built strong.  My current ovens which are brand new, have pretty flimsy shelves and bow if I stack the stones.   Another plan I was working on with my brother-inlaw (a highly skilled machinest) was an insert that would fit a home oven that is made of steel and you would line top, bottom, and sides, with the tiles.  You would remove the shelves and insert the frame and insert the tiles in it.   We were planning on 7"-10" of height and it would cook 1 large pie.  But now that I have 2 legendary Blodgett 1000's that plan is on the waaaaaaaaaaaay backburner.  I  share it here and maybe it will inspire someone to finish the idea to fruition or maybe it is already built somewhere?   Walter

[chickenparm]

Thanks for the reply Scott.I will try and show you some pics soon.When my pies are cooked by 4 minutes or so,they are not crispy at all,they are soft,foldable and delicious.A while back,I was telling my wife I was thinking about ordering a steel plate and was also looking for soap stone.I went to a dealer that sells granite and all sorts of counter top stones,and the only one they did NOT carry was soapstone.They said special order,and will cost $$$ since Id have to get an entire slab.

I guess my wife decided to look online and find me a stone that could let me make large pies and came across the Fibrament.I was shocked but decided I had nothing to lose,and it works very well so far.

Pics to come and sorry to go a bit off topic.Lets get back to making enormous pies.If only I could make a 22" or 24"!!
 

[Giggliato]

I used to make 26" pies at a shop I worked at. They are so much fun to make! Not to mention eat! We would just smash two dough balls together before dusting and then toss.

[jrovito]

First, I would like to agree with the premise of the thread:
I would prefer to make 16" & 18" pies, especially 18" "slice pies".

Growing up near Philly, most of the slice pies were 18", and most of the large pies where 16" and they were different as night and day - even when ordered from the same place. I'm sure they were (usually) made from different weight doughballs, but they may've not had the thickness factor dialed in - the large (16") pies tended to be thicker and topped appropriately. The 18" slices pies were super thin with minimal sauce, but normal amount of cheese.
============
I make 12" NEos (10 oz /285 gms) and 14" (15 oz/425 gms) NYs.
My "hearthkit" oven insert for my indoor residential elecric oven is 14.5 x 15.25 - and now after years of practice, I can get a 14" in no problem. 

I just bought a used Kalamazoo outdoor NG oven (hits 780F if I want it to) that has a 18"x24" fibrament stone, so I am anxious to get experience with a larger size.
Went out and got an 18" peel and did my first 16" (19.5 oz/550 gms) pizza two weekends ago. I had no problem stretching it, and boy was it fun!
Still dialing in the Kalamazoo, but I a just can't wait to try a 18" toss using 24 oz / 685 gms of dough.
 

[scott123]

The 18" slices pies were super thin with minimal sauce, but normal amount of cheese.

...

I a just can't wait to try a 18" toss using 24 oz / 685 gms of dough.

If you're trying to recreate the 'super thin' 18" slice pies of your youth, you should be shooting for a dough ball weight of close to 18 oz. It'll be hard to stretch, but, on the plus side, the lower thickness factor should make it easier to launch. I, think, but am not sure, that if you launch a pizza on the Kalamazoo that touches the back wall (metal plate), you'll have an incinerated edge. If that's the case, then you need all the launching help you can get.

Btw, please keep us informed of your Neapolitan results with the Kalamazoo. So far, the results have been less than stellar

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15880.0

but that could easily have been caused by the operator unfamiliarity.

[PizzaEater101]

jrovito,

Please post photos of your oven and when you make these big pies post pics. I really look forward to seeing it.  Thanks much.

[jrovito]

Just made 8 1/2 # NY dough for the weekend. Hoping to do at least 3 - 18" and 4-14" pies. I'll start a new thread in a few weeks on the oven after I get some more time on it. It gets very hot, very quick, but there is no top heating whatsoever. Glad I only have $1500 into it, hoping I can add a top stone or something.