Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One

[fazzari]

Peter
Coarse cornmeal is what you use to slide a pizza into the oven.  Regarding your last experiment, one thing you don't know is how this pizza might have cooked on a cooler stone....it might have been a beauty!!!

John

[Pete-zza]

Regarding your last experiment, one thing you don't know is how this pizza might have cooked on a cooler stone....it might have been a beauty!!!

John, that thought did occur to me after I saw how much the bottom of the crust had browned.

Peter

[fazzari]

Well guys, I had just one more little experiment to try regarding this RT crust.  First of all, let me say again, the recipe itself is excellent....I think that when we try to clone a recipe, we try to go through the same procedures that the original cooks go through thinking that some of the secret is in the procedure (and it certainly may be true in some cases).  But there are two very distinct facts regarding this type of crust which are true:  1)  it's the compression of the dough which gives this crust its texture and 2) according to Tom Lehmann, you don't have to bulk ferment a dough which is being retarded by refrigeration.  In other words, as far as flavor goes, there should be no difference refrigerating a formed skin or refrigerating the bulk dough.  If this is true, and it is also true that we don't have sheeters at home, then it only makes sense to me that we should roll our dough when it is at its absolute easiest form.  With this in mind I mixed up a batch of RT dough...it came off the mixer (5 minutes) at about 80 degrees.  I then covered this dough and put in a warm oven for 2 hours.  I then rolled a thin sheet of dough....folded this into 3 layers...rolled another thin sheet...folded this into 3 layers...and rolled another sheet (this is 9 layers if you are counting).  I then cut out 3 skins and refrigerated for 32 hours.  I then decided to try something really fun...one skin I baked in a pan with fat (technically this is fried), the second skin I baked on a disk, the third one I baked right on the stone.  I wanted to know what 3 identical skins would look like cooked three different ways. 
I tasted all three (duh!)...and even though they were all very good, it's the pizza cooked on the stone which wins hands down every time...in fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that originally this crust was baked in deck ovens...but to simplify the process (say by using conveyer type ovens) it was docked and cooked on screens or disks.....this is a much simpler method of baking large numbers of pizzas.  This is simply a stupid guess after tasting these three different baked pizzas....but I'd put money on it!!  Does anybody out there know any history of this product?
If you look closely at the pictures, the crust has millions and millions of little holes, this is as tender a cracker crust that you will find...and you will also notice that you don't see layers, the method I used to roll these out, made basically one crust, although there are 9 layers used to compress the dough.  The only real problem I encountered was that the skins might be a bit thick...but I got it as thin as I could without overworking it...and I didn't re roll it after refrigeration to make it thinner....i wanted to see what the result would be.
John

[Jackitup]

that top one looks awesome on the bottom, was that one your favorite? Haven't tried the RT yet, may have to give it a go
Jon

[Pete-zza]

John,

Since Round Table was founded in 1959, no doubt you are correct that the early RT pizzas were baked in deck ovens. However, it is also possible that RT made many changes over the years and that today’s RT pizza is quite different from the original ones. As you know, suppliers come and go, and operators frequently change suppliers and ingredients when they feel they are getting gouged or they want lower food costs, even if it cheapens the quality of the pizzas. The big pizza chains make changes to their product all the time, except that they are smart enough to make the changes gradually so that their customers don’t notice them. As a simple example, I noticed that several members (including me) have been using mozzarella cheese, Provolone cheese and cheddar cheese in a 3:1:1 ratio. I don’t know if that was based on what RT is/was doing (ThatOneGuy couldn’t remember the cheese ratios used) but, if so, that ratio has changed. According to the RT website, RT is now using 80% whole-milk mozzarella cheese, 10% Provolone cheese, and 10% aged cheddar cheese. Making that change alone--which most customers are unlikely to detect--would reduce food costs because mozzarella cheese is cheaper than Provolone and possibly aged cheddar. It also shows how difficult it is to try to keep up with the changes in our clones. A simple change in sauce can throw things off quite a bit for those of us who are trying to make clones in our homes.

I also agree with you that it is logical to prepare skins in advance. And, no doubt, there are people in RT’s research lab who know this. However, making this change, especially on a large scale, could change the product too much and lead to customer complaints. I am sure that RT thought long and hard about going to screens, disks and air impingement ovens but it perhaps was inevitable that they would go that route as the chain grew over the years. According to the last PMQ Pizza Power Report (2006), RT was the 9th largest pizza chain in the U.S. by sales, with close to 500 units. On that scale, changes have to be well thought out and implemented carefully so as not to change the way their pizzas are perceived and received by their customers. Of course, in a home setting, we are free to do as we wish. So, if it is easier to make up the skins in advance when it is the best time to do so, and especially if the end product is better (always a matter of opinion), then that is the way we should go. If using a pizza stone produces better results than a pan, disk or screen--which is also a matter of personal opinion—then that is also the way one should go. I personally like the combination of a premade skin and a cutter pan (or disk) because I can make the pizzas at someone else’s place without having to lug along a pizza stone and a peel. And the skins should survive the travel time in very good shape, especially if they are folded in quarters (and pre-docked), as I have been doing with my cracker-style skins, and placed in an insulated carrier. It may even be possible to carry the premade skins on a plane for flights of a few hours or less, although no doubt the security personnel will run your luggage through the scanner when they see a chunk of metal (cutter pan or disk).

Peter

[fazzari]

Peter
All three of the above skins are excellent!!!  I give the nod to the one baked on stone from the pure texture of it.  I do know for a fact, because this is what I do, it's tons harder baking every single skin on a  deck...and so from a consistency point, it makes sense to go to another method, especially given the fact that it takes a pretty good oven tender to bake a ton of pizzas on a Friday night.  Another thought about forming the skin first is that you're not degassing the dough before you bake it.  If I try this one more time, I will go to a 6 layer crust instead of 9, and see if I can go a bit thinner.

Jon,  the top pizza was the fried one.  My favorite was the bottom one.  What made me try this experiment was that at work I took out one of my 2 inch pan pizza pans, added a butter flavored crisco, and cooked one of our 36% cracker crusts, just to see what the result would be.  It looked very much like the top picture, it really was pretty....and it tasted just fine.....but texture wise...it just has no comparison to the ones cooked right on the brick....this is entirely my opinion of course..I know we all are looking for something a bit different.

John

[DNA Dan]

John,

That is precisely what I get everytime I use a rolling pin. If 3 passes in the sheeter is giving you a 90-95% reincorporated crust, it just goes to show others how fragile the lamination process really is. Do you do this many "passes" with your other doughs? Is the result a single crust? or a "finer" lamination?

I recently tried the cheater recipe with a pasta roller. After making a stitch of about 6 thin layers on #6 on my roller, I made the mistake of rolling them with the pin to get it down to a smaller thicknes factor. I didn't roll much, but it sure did impact the amount of bubbling that Lydia has been showing in her photos. It seemed like the cheater recipe was a bit wet and reformed easy once laid on another piece.

Given how finicky this style is, even with the usage of a sheeter, I am wondering if this isn't more like 80% technique and 20% ingredients. The same dough can give very different results depending on its prep.

[fazzari]

Dan, to tell you the truth...I've been rolling cracker style crusts for over 30 years now, and the thought of layers in the crust never crossed my mind until I started reading some of the posts here...In my mind, the sheeting/laminating process simply uses layers to compress the dough to make a single piece of dough.  And so it has always been my thought that while trying the process at home..I was trying to make one piece of dough using the rolling pin.  My last experiment was a huge success to me...the crust was simply fabulous....on top of the very thin veneer of crispiness was a softness, obviously helped along with the milk in the dough.  As for bubbles, believe me when I tell you...a bubble popper is my best friend...but not every pizza has the big bubbles...I don't know why, they just don't...the pizzas are all excellent either way.  And so I again marvel at the fact that you all try to make one or two crusts behave exactly the way you want it to....have you ever thought, that when you make a pizza, you set the oven to bake and the temperature you set is just an educated guess of what you think it will take...These types of skins are very heat sensitive...at work I have the luxury of cooking a couple and then adjusting my temps as needed to get pefect bakes...you all don't have that luxury...and that's why I'm amazed at what everyone accomplishes at home.  Bravo to all of you!!!  By the way, another big reason I think I like my skins baked right on the stone, is that they cook quicker...7 minutes compared to 10 minutes in a 475 degree oven.

John

[Pete-zza]

By the way, another big reason I think I like my skins baked right on the stone, is that they cook quicker...7 minutes compared to 10 minutes in a 475 degree oven.

John,

There are actually two time periods that are involved--the total bake time and the total elapsed time. For example, using a pan or disk may take 10 minutes to bake a pizza but the warmup time of the oven is only around 12 minutes (my oven), so the total elapsed time is around 22 minutes if I put the pizza into the oven right after the oven reaches the required temperature. If I use a stone, it usually takes about an hour preheat, so even with the shorter bake time (e.g., 7 minutes), the total elapsed time is around 67 minutes if the pizza goes onto the stone right after the one-hour preheat. What may be more important is the nature and quality of the bake using the two different methods, and which method produces the better results from the eater's standpoint. It is for this reason that I would like to try some more bakes using the stone. For some styles, like the NY style, I actually prefer the stone over a screen, disk or pan. It's just a matter of personal preference, not an indictment or criticism of the other methods.

Peter

[fazzari]

The quality of the bake is exactly my point Peter....just as a for instance...if you have toppings that tend to water, like mushrooms or raw beef and sausage, the longer you take to bake.... the more moisture is released...to much moisture absolutely kills the whole effect of this thin crust..that's all.  Like I've said before...on the perfect crust of this type, the steam rolls off the top, because the heat transfer from stone through the top is terrific...in case you can't tell...I love your version of this recipe..it's simple, tasty, and has a perfect texture.
John

[Pete-zza]

John,

It is very likely that there are several variations of the recipe you used that will work just as well, maybe even better. When I try to reverse engineer dough formulations where I know the pecking order of the ingredients, I usually key on the salt percent first and then determine the percents for the rest of the ingredients in relation to the salt (above and below). Salt is a unique ingredient in dough recipes because it doesn't have a particularly large workable range from the palate standpoint. I usually use 1.75% for salt, which I have found to satisfy my palate for just about every dough recipe. If I go too much below that level, the crust seems too bland for my taste; too much above 1.75%, the crust is too salty. So, if someone picks a percent for salt that is in the range of say, 1.5-2%, which is a pretty good range for Americans conditioned to high salt levels by food processors, and also a good range chemically in a dough, the rest of the ingredients can shift in relation to the salt and yield a final recipe that is likely to work quite well. That is essentially what scott r did when he modified one of the early RT clone dough recipes.

Peter

[Lydia]

Hi ALL

I have some more info. The Round table I like to visit in the bay area has opened an exhibition window for the dough prep. How much better could one hope for!

While I was getting some some sauce samples my son watched the dough prep. What he reported was that a single skin was patted out, then made a single pass through the sheeter that made an oval, with a second pass to make it round. I saw the dough maker come out of the exhibition area with one skin and appeared to be a thick crust, because of the pan in was in. This would also be consistent with the information provided by "that one guy" in the begining of this thread.

Crystal brand baking spray and a recent and obvious dotted oil impression left from baking disc on dough table.
Sommerset sheeter
Mondako dusting flour/Round table dusting flour (yes, it said both Mondako and Round table, looked about 50 lbs.) resting ontop a Hobart mixer: appeared to be a 60 qt but could be less.
and a BUNN hot water dispenser. I looked up the bunn and the only one that fit the information we already have was the Bunn 5 Gallon Hot Water Dispenser H5E-18-120 Hot Water Dispenser SETTINGS 85/115 Degrees Electrical 120v / 20 amp / 1800 w. What I don't know is if this one has the water softener in it.

The dough maker came in, it was some time before 7pm. He filled a CamWear clear round 4qt container once to the very tip-top and filled again to 2qt. and dumped it into the mixer bowl.
Round table crust mix: mix with water: 25.25 lbs. added to mixer bowl after the water. (I was pretty sure I saw 25.25 vs. the 24.25 that is on the bag sample in this thread. But when trying to covertly take notes it's possible I got it wrong.)

Dough was mixed on a LOW speed, with spiral dough hook, about equal to my 6qt level 1. Dough maker left the area to go clean tables. Said that the dough would not be sheeted today, it was for tomorrow, and sheeted in the morning.

On the wall near sheeter

Regular Crust

size   ideal   range               diameter
P    4 oz.   3.5-4.5                 6.5-7.5
S     8.5 oz.   7.5-9                 9-10
M    13.5 oz.   12.5-14.5    11-12
L     18.5 oz.   17-15.5                 13-14
XL    21.5 oz.   23.5-25.5    15-18


THICK CRUST
P   7.5 oz.
S   14.5 oz.
M   21.5 oz.
L   30 oz.
XL   40 oz.
   

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17573.html#msg17573
above dough weights are not consistent with what was posted here.

I know the range for the large,regular crust looks funny but that is how I copied it down.  maybe DNAdan or someone else in the area could double check the numbers. I don't know when I will be in the area again. I also didn't write down the info for the bread stick weights etc.

[November]

size   ideal   range               diameter
L     18.5 oz.   17-15.5                 13-14
XL    21.5 oz.   23.5-25.5    15-18

I know the rang for regular crust look funny for the large, but that is how I copied it down.  maybe DNA dan or someone else in the area cold double check on the numbers. I also didn't write down the infor for the bread stick weights etc.

Actually, both the L and XL ideal weights fall outside the ranges.

[Lydia]

The more I looked at my notes I began to wonder if I skipped a line and that the last two should be the xlg and the bread sticks (which are cut from a large sheet).

I only had the back of a glossy business card to jot the info on and the ink smudged the 23 but it was 20 something. And I dont know why the 17 is listed before the 15.5. I dont know if I goofed or if it was actually posted that way on thier chart.

Oh yah, there was a hand written note at the bottom of the chart, but I dont have a clue what it means. It siad "BU 28 fresh" anyone have any idea what this means?


Does anyone know the oz. of cheese per size of pie? I notice elsegundo mentioned way back in the begining of this thread that a large should be 11 oz.

[Lydia]

I tried the cheater's formula (without the layering), on the BBQ grill. It worked very well, with the exception that my temps were too high. The pizza stone was preheated on the grill and my Extech laser thermometer said I had my stone at approx. 700F    We were starved so I only let the temp drop to 600F. It baked quickly, thoroughly and it crisped exceptionally well and the cheese melted perfectly, but the bottom was a bit too charred. 

[Mad_Ernie]

Keep going guys!     I have read this thread and related threads from start to the latest.  I have tried a couple of times to cook a Round Table pizza from the recipes given here at home, but they still have fallen short.  I'll be trying again this week.  I am using a paster sheeter, as mentioned previously, to sheet my dough.

Lydia, you mentioned Mondako flour in one of your posts.  It comes from Pendleton Mills in Pendleton, Oregon.  Here's a link:

http://www.pfmills.com/pfmweb.nsf/premiumpizzamixes.htm

The one used by Round Table may be somewhat custom made, but it appears they have 12% protein level.  I might just see if I can order some.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work!

[Lydia]

mad ernie

Be sure to note that the mondako at RT was labeled dusting flour and is not to be confused with the regular mondako flour used for bread/pizza making.

Pendelton Mills website doesn't list all their flours/mixes on their site. Not sure why.

If I recall correctly Pete had some brochures and specs. on flour from Pendleton Mills.

[Mad_Ernie]

mad ernie

Be sure to note that the mondako at RT was labeled dusting flour and is not to be confused with the regular mondako flour used for bread/pizza making.

Pendelton Mills website doesn't list all their flours/mixes on their site. Not sure why.

If I recall correctly Pete had some brochures and specs. on flour from Pendleton Mills.

Thanks for the info

[Gone_Fishin]

Hi Lydia,

I have never made a pizza before and had a couple of questions for you about your "cheater's recipe". 

1.) You say you put the harvest king, harina, yeast and water into the food processor just until combined? Does that mean until the dough is fully formed (not sticking to the bowl)? I have a Cuisinart 11-cup processor, which blade do you use to combine the ingredients?

2.) What is bench flour? Is that the harvest king flour?

3.) Is the peperoni that you used Oscar Meyer brand?

Thanks in advance for all of you hard work on developing and sharing this recipe!

[Lydia]

Hi and welcome to the board 

I use the metal chopping blade and pulse the food processor a couple of times, just until the crumbs start to stick together and the dough just barely holds together. There will be sticky areas as well as loose crumbs and undissolved yeast.  We have been playing with adding the water quickly while the processor is running verses just dumping it in, I'm not sure that it's making much of a difference.

When I dump the dough/crumbs onto the plastic wrap and seal it up, I usually end up with an oblong lump of dough, it's easier to wrap than a ball of dough due to the width of the plastic wrap. The crumbs will hydrate during the room temp. rest. Halfway through the "rest", I fold the dough log 2-3 times to help incorporate the crumbs and yeast. Don't fold more than 3 times the more you work it, the tougher the dough gets. After folding is a good time to divide the dough into balls if you plan on layering the dough (which I highly encourage, the layers are wonderful and really help get the big bubbles). During the first half of the rest the dough will not expand much so you can wrap it tightly, after folding the dough it will rise more. If you have used a long enough piece of plastic wrap the dough will not escape.

We still prefer to let the dough rest overnight, it's worth the wait. We put it in the fridge after folding and before dividing. Remove an hour or two to come to room temp., divide dough and wrap, then let set for about an hour.

Bench flour is the flour that you sprinkle on your rolling surface (cutting board, counter-top, table etc.) or as in the case with Round Table, it's the flour they use to keep the dough from sticking to the rollers on the dough sheeter aka dusting flour. I use the harvest king and have also used Gold medal all-purpose. I'm not sure yet if there is a difference other than cost.

The dough will be a bit wetter and slightly sticky after the last half of the "rest". I roll the divided dough balls in just a bit of flour, pat the dough into a disc of even thickness then roll the dough out without any additional flour or with only a barely visable coating. I feel that allowing the dough to slightly adhere to the rolling surface is key to simulating the stretching of a dough sheeter. I'm not sure if the additional flour causes the dough to get tough or if the technique of rolling with flour causes the dough to be over worked. I do know that flour residue prevents the crust from getting crispy and caues a gummy layer under the sauce.

I am working on a slide show for this pizza. It's not complete yet, only has the rolling, layering and cutting portion, but I will try to get it up and going.

The Oscar Meyer pepperoni is the one that i have found to be the closest to round table, and it is my preference. It is the right thickness, flavor and bakes up right, but it's hard to find in my area. Most often I use the Galileo brand from Cash N Carry. I get it in bulk so it costs less and it's the next best thing.

Let me know how things turn out and I will try to help.