Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 273412 times)

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #275 on: April 16, 2008, 12:50:33 PM »
Keep going guys!  ;D   I have read this thread and related threads from start to the latest.  I have tried a couple of times to cook a Round Table pizza from the recipes given here at home, but they still have fallen short.  I'll be trying again this week.  I am using a paster sheeter, as mentioned previously, to sheet my dough.

Lydia, you mentioned Mondako flour in one of your posts.  It comes from Pendleton Mills in Pendleton, Oregon.  Here's a link:

http://www.pfmills.com/pfmweb.nsf/premiumpizzamixes.htm

The one used by Round Table may be somewhat custom made, but it appears they have 12% protein level.  I might just see if I can order some.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work! :chef:
Let them eat pizza.


Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #276 on: April 16, 2008, 04:00:57 PM »
mad ernie

Be sure to note that the mondako at RT was labeled dusting flour and is not to be confused with the regular mondako flour used for bread/pizza making.

Pendelton Mills website doesn't list all their flours/mixes on their site. Not sure why.

If I recall correctly Pete had some brochures and specs. on flour from Pendleton Mills.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #277 on: April 17, 2008, 09:44:22 AM »
mad ernie

Be sure to note that the mondako at RT was labeled dusting flour and is not to be confused with the regular mondako flour used for bread/pizza making.

Pendelton Mills website doesn't list all their flours/mixes on their site. Not sure why.

If I recall correctly Pete had some brochures and specs. on flour from Pendleton Mills.

Thanks for the info ;)
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #278 on: July 08, 2008, 09:02:19 PM »
Hi Lydia,

I have never made a pizza before and had a couple of questions for you about your "cheater's recipe".  ::)

1.) You say you put the harvest king, harina, yeast and water into the food processor just until combined? Does that mean until the dough is fully formed (not sticking to the bowl)? I have a Cuisinart 11-cup processor, which blade do you use to combine the ingredients?

2.) What is bench flour? Is that the harvest king flour?

3.) Is the peperoni that you used Oscar Meyer brand?

Thanks in advance for all of you hard work on developing and sharing this recipe!



Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #279 on: July 09, 2008, 11:42:51 AM »
Hi and welcome to the board  ;D

I use the metal chopping blade and pulse the food processor a couple of times, just until the crumbs start to stick together and the dough just barely holds together. There will be sticky areas as well as loose crumbs and undissolved yeast.  We have been playing with adding the water quickly while the processor is running verses just dumping it in, I'm not sure that it's making much of a difference.

When I dump the dough/crumbs onto the plastic wrap and seal it up, I usually end up with an oblong lump of dough, it's easier to wrap than a ball of dough due to the width of the plastic wrap. The crumbs will hydrate during the room temp. rest. Halfway through the "rest", I fold the dough log 2-3 times to help incorporate the crumbs and yeast. Don't fold more than 3 times the more you work it, the tougher the dough gets. After folding is a good time to divide the dough into balls if you plan on layering the dough (which I highly encourage, the layers are wonderful and really help get the big bubbles). During the first half of the rest the dough will not expand much so you can wrap it tightly, after folding the dough it will rise more. If you have used a long enough piece of plastic wrap the dough will not escape.

We still prefer to let the dough rest overnight, it's worth the wait. We put it in the fridge after folding and before dividing. Remove an hour or two to come to room temp., divide dough and wrap, then let set for about an hour.

Bench flour is the flour that you sprinkle on your rolling surface (cutting board, counter-top, table etc.) or as in the case with Round Table, it's the flour they use to keep the dough from sticking to the rollers on the dough sheeter aka dusting flour. I use the harvest king and have also used Gold medal all-purpose. I'm not sure yet if there is a difference other than cost.

The dough will be a bit wetter and slightly sticky after the last half of the "rest". I roll the divided dough balls in just a bit of flour, pat the dough into a disc of even thickness then roll the dough out without any additional flour or with only a barely visable coating. I feel that allowing the dough to slightly adhere to the rolling surface is key to simulating the stretching of a dough sheeter. I'm not sure if the additional flour causes the dough to get tough or if the technique of rolling with flour causes the dough to be over worked. I do know that flour residue prevents the crust from getting crispy and caues a gummy layer under the sauce.

I am working on a slide show for this pizza. It's not complete yet, only has the rolling, layering and cutting portion, but I will try to get it up and going.

The Oscar Meyer pepperoni is the one that i have found to be the closest to round table, and it is my preference. It is the right thickness, flavor and bakes up right, but it's hard to find in my area. Most often I use the Galileo brand from Cash N Carry. I get it in bulk so it costs less and it's the next best thing.

Let me know how things turn out and I will try to help.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #280 on: July 09, 2008, 12:43:51 PM »


I got the first rough draft of the slide show to down load, not much, but might help. the dough pics are from an earlier version of the cheater's formula but the photos of the pizza are current. Expect the dough to be more crumbly.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/video/3030158170074195474lJXusW
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #281 on: July 10, 2008, 09:24:06 AM »
Hi Lydia,

This is great; the video helps a lot. It appears that Christoforo Colombo pizza sauce is only available to non-commercial. So I am going to use Escalon's 6-1 instead.

I'll be trying "Lydia's Round Table" this weekend  ;D

Thanks!




Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #282 on: July 10, 2008, 02:23:53 PM »
Gald it helped  :D

If you're going to use 6n1's I highly encourage you try to reduce the liquid in the tomatoes..either by straining, cooking off some of the juices or adding a tomato paste. You may use them stright from the can but it can but it affects the crust. Sometimes it gets soggy or gummy.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #283 on: July 10, 2008, 03:30:13 PM »
Lydia:

Thanks for sticking with this RT clone.

I have a question about rolling out the dough.  You mentioned you "roll" out the dough balls, so am I correct you are using a rolling pin and not a pasta sheeter or some other type of device?

If that is the case, I am a little surprised the dough puffs up so much based on your photos and posted video.  Is that due to layering you describe?  OR perhaps your original mixing technique with the food processor?  I ask this because my unlayered version has tended to come out flat with no puffiness.  I have used a Kitchenaid with a dough hook to mix the dough and a pasta-sheeter to roll it out, with folds and dusting with flour in between.  I have also used the Harvest King bread flour.

Thanks,

ME
Let them eat pizza.


Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #284 on: July 10, 2008, 09:20:28 PM »
Thanks for tip Lydia. I will reduce the water content in the 6 in 1. I don't want soggy crust.

Ernie, and Lydia correct me if I'm wrong...from the video it appears to be a 5" roller? And she lays three 10" skins on top of each other and then trims the edges with a pizza cutter. And as far as the dough goes, it looks like she barely combines the ingredients as the dough is still very lumpy.





Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #285 on: July 11, 2008, 12:00:54 PM »
G fishing

Yes on the 5 inch roller. In the pictures it would appear that I'm rolling ten inch skins but the lines on my board are for a 10 in pie tin. This brings it to just under 13 inches. This was an oversight in my previous instructions. You want 6 balls from 1 recipe for this size pizza.

Hi EM

Which formula are you using?

There is a lot of details we don't know in the recreating this style of pizza at home.

Harvest king flour was one of the BEST things to happen for this style!

If I recall correctly, Peter and I came to the same conclusion "that using underdeveloped dough with minimal handling had the best results".

For the technique shown in the sideshow: I do feel that rolling on a mostly unfloured surface is part of the key. This allows to the dough to adhere to board and then is stretched to size with fewer stokes from the rolling pin. I believe this plays a role in prevention of overworking the dough. But I could be wrong, It could be the opposite. The technique just may be more accurate at simulating how a dough sheeter "works" the dough. Overall it is more efficient: it requires fewer stokes of the rolling pin, and a smaller roller allows for more control so that you can focus on any areas that may be slightly thicker. It makes it easier to achieve an even thickness without a sheeter. We have used a wider rolling pin, but preferred the smaller rolling pin.

Some form of layering is also key: it "traps air between the layers". Therefore you do not want to compress the final layers or allow them to rest in stacked form as they tend to meld. These things will compensate for not have a forced steam impingement oven at home. This instant high heat from the steam jets could be compared to frying dough in hot oil. Most any dough, even those without ANY leavening at all will produce instant bubbles with the instant direct heat from the hot oil. This is also why docking home-versions may not be a good idea, the toppings usually create enough weight to keep the height of the bubbles in the center of the pizza small. Maintaining a good 1 1/2 to 2 inch boarder will allow large crust bubbles on the edge.

The cheater's formula is just that, the tortilla mix has a baking powder type leavening that aids in the bubble development, but it still requires some type of layering for "good" bubble development. I believe it also contains a dough relaxer that makes rolling a breeze.

Ernie, I haven't tried the cheater's dough in my kitchen aid, but if I were, I'd would probably start with the whisk, which is mostly considered a no-no.  I would add the liquid a tsp. at a time until it looked like moistened crumbs. Halfway through you'd most likely need to use a spatula to bring the dry ingredients that hangout in the recessed bottom of the kitchenaid bowl, to the top. Otherwise I would simply toss the dry ingredients with a fork after each addition of the liquid. I personally feel that the dough hook, either the older c hook or the newer spiral hook would be slow to incorporate the liquid and ultimately overwork the dough. The whisk wouldn't be a good idea with the doughs that actually come together to form a ball, but will work well for incorporating non-melted shortening.

I added a graphic to this post to give a better idea for the folding method i used prior to the 3 layer technique shown in the sideshow.
 
I made my dough last night and realized that I have been doing a few things "subconsciously" that needs to be mentioned.

Halfway through the countertop rise I divide the dough (if making 2 pizzas) and turn the dough twice to form each into a ball. This helps the dough become more homogeneous and improves the rise volume.

Also when rolling out the dough, I roll the dough ball in the bench flour then roll the dough out to size, flip it over and bring in four imaginary corners to the center (makes something like a diamond shape but I try to keep it as round as possible), flip it over and press it into a round disc. I don't believe I'm wiping off the bench flour before folding, but I'll need to make the dough again to be for sure. Then proceed rolling the skin to full size. So, I guess what I'm doing is some altered form of sheeting and layering.

If the dough is rolled too thick it can reduce bubble volume and the bottom crust usually doesn't crisp well and stays pliable. Sometimes longer bake times won't remedy it either.

Later I mentioned that I was using the small roller to avoid rolling over the edge or using only slight pressure if necessary. This folding creates that trapped air along the edge.

Lydia




The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #286 on: July 11, 2008, 12:28:13 PM »
forced steam impingement oven. This instant high heat from the steam jets could be compared to frying dough in hot oil.

This is the first time I have heard of this oven. Do you have any links that show what you are talking about?

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #287 on: July 11, 2008, 12:55:03 PM »
Lydia:

Thanks so much for your detailed response.

From your video and description, the dough seems more reminiscent of pie crust dough than most pizza doughs.

I have been using the final recipe for the dough that Pete-ezza had come up with, including the Harvest King bread flour.

I am going to try taking another shot at this in a month or so.  Right now I am honing my technique with the 2stone for an upcoming pizza party and I don't want to get side-tracked with working out another dough recipe.  We'll see how it goes.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #288 on: July 11, 2008, 02:43:31 PM »
MWTC

Ooops  :-[ I did say steam didn't I? As far as I know round table uses "air" impingement ovens. Similar concept yet different results. Steam impingement ovens are typically used for crusty French bread or pizzas with that type of crust.

Well the pic in this message is the best pic I could find to give an idea of how impingement ovens work. From the outside they just look like any ol' conveyor oven.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1911.0;attach=2632

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #289 on: July 11, 2008, 02:52:04 PM »
That would be a little over-kill for the house.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #290 on: July 11, 2008, 03:03:35 PM »
 :-D yes indeed

There is a tabletop version I have been keeping watch for on ebay but haven't been able to snag one within my price range. Especially after paying freight costs. It's a Lincoln 1301 also called a sub oven and it requires a special outlet that most homes "might" have in their garage.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #291 on: July 11, 2008, 06:57:27 PM »
Hi Lydia,

I just tried the recipe without success. Keep in mind that I'm awesome on the Q (grilling and smoking), but a real bonehead when it comes to baking.

I combined the dough (slightly more than what the recipe calls for by accident), let sit for 2 hours, divided the dough into six balls, and let sit at room temp for another 2 hours. The balls were way too tiny for me to make 13 inch skins and I had to combine 3 balls to make one 13 inch skin. So I was only able to layer it twice. The dough was very sticky, so sticky that it wasn't workable and had to add more harvest king flour. Was that because I added too much water? I only used 4 ounces of the masa mix and the dough had a very strong smell of masa; is that what is to be expected? There were also no bubbles.  :(

Should I even be using the food processor to combine and do it by hand instead? Do I need to roll the dough as thin as I can get it without tearing? I have seen some pizza pros blow air under the pizza to help keep it from sticking to the peel, should I try that between the layers?

Sorry for so many questions, I just want to get this recipe down; I'm stumped  ???

Thanks!





Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #292 on: July 11, 2008, 10:04:48 PM »
umm...smells like masa  ??? .. sounds like you may have the "masa para tamales". Double check your bag. Quaker has 2 products 1 has a picture of tamales on the front (red), the one you want shows flour tortillas (yellow).
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #293 on: July 11, 2008, 10:15:50 PM »
DOH! I have the MASA Harina De Maiz  :o

I think what happened was I originally purchased the tortilla mix, but there was a slight tear in the bag, and the grocery bagger graciously offered to replace it with a non-torn bag. And he replaced it with the wrong one without me taking notice.

Whelp, it's back to Bel-Air for the right stuff. Nice catch, thanks. I will try it again.




Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #294 on: July 13, 2008, 10:47:54 AM »
Hi ALL

I took some time to finish-up the whole video on layering. Turned out better than I anticipated. I downloaded it to my webshots photo album and the quality was soo poor that I uploaded it here instead.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/Lidz/videos/1/

It could use some fine tuning, but let me know what you guys think about how to make it more enjoyable and helpful.

Thanks!
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #295 on: July 13, 2008, 11:15:59 AM »
Nicely done Lydia!

That's a very well produced and informative video. You should post it to youtube as well.

After watching your video (outside of me originally using the wrong mix), I know where I went wrong on my first attempt.

Thanks again!



Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #296 on: July 14, 2008, 12:08:07 AM »
Congratulations Lydia.  Fabulous.

Maybe without realizing it, you do duplicate the Round Table technique. Your 3 layers -they have done as folded layers then die-cut (your pizza cutter).   They use a dry mixture, 11 lbs water to 24.25 lbs of dry ingredients, mostly flour.

You got much the same result I get with a dough sheeter, but whatever works. You produce a larger size pizza.
Your flavor may or not be what you want with the baking powder. I prefer yeast for flavor, but sometimes add a little baking powder. So do some commercial premixes.

I think you are there. I suspect you may be closer to Straw Hat than RT in flavor, but I like them both.

The secret is the layers.

Terrific video. 

From Sacramento, birthplace of Shakey's.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #297 on: July 14, 2008, 12:57:43 AM »
Ok, I actually couldn't find the Quaker Tortilla Mix, so I made Pete-zza's recipe.

My interpretation of the recipe came out "decent". My wife scored it a 6 out of 10, on this scale, 10 being a Round Table pizza. I would have to agree with her score.

Lessons learned: needed to be rolled more thinly, the inner crust was soft, fluffy and kind of sweet. Maybe like a little caesar's or chuck e. cheese pizza? The outer crust was perfect, it had a crispy crust on the outside, soft inside, with a less sweet and bread-like flavor (I don't know how that happened). I had one, maybe two small bubbles, but I didn't do Lydia's layering technique either, this was just a single skin. I also didn't add enough sauce. I used the 6 in 1 instead of Crisoforo Colombo's pizza sauce and didn't want it to be soggy, and just didn't add enough.

Here are some pictures of the finished product...I will tinker on...  :chef:



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #298 on: July 14, 2008, 09:29:15 AM »
Gone_Fishin,

I have never had a Round Table pizza, so can you tell me which of the RT dough clone recipes I posted you used and also if you deviated from the recipe?

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #299 on: July 14, 2008, 11:06:56 AM »
Hi All

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.  ;D   It was actually pretty fun and fairly easy to do. The hardest part was choosing the right background music. I worried it was a bit lengthy.


Elsegundo

I want to clarify that surpizingly the cheater's formula doesn't taste of baking powder at all and it dose have the wonderful yeasty fermented flavor of RT dough.  The longer it's exposed to room temperatures the more pronounced the flavor is. Overnight refrigerated ferment, improves bottom crispness, and rounds out the flavor. I also love how easy it is to roll out. I'm completely satisfied with it as an RT clone with the 3 layer technique.

Right now, if I were using 4 layers instead of 3, I would say it is dead on clone of "paradise pizza" a new chain that just branched off of Round Table (owner dissatisfaction). The major difference between RT and Paradise is softer inner layers of the crust and slightly different seasoning in the sauce, better customer service and more consistent product. My area seemed to be where they initiated most them. 4 of our RT's turned into Paradise Pizza overnight without any warning. I don't think they stopped business for even a day.

If the layers were thinner and worked just a bit more, it would be more like Shakey's of the 70's and 80's.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.