Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 272979 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 834
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #625 on: February 15, 2014, 08:06:59 PM »
Lydia, do you know if Me n Eds does the same practice?


Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #626 on: February 15, 2014, 08:25:25 PM »
Do you think this is a 2-4 day deal? or are scraps carried forward indefinitely? Would this ever spoil?


I am pretty confident that the scrap can "technically" be used after about an hour (without refrigeration) but I think a minimum of 8-12 hours under refrigeration is really what we are aiming for.


I should mention though, that at a few other pizza places I have seen the scrap added to very next skin that was sheeted and the crust was awesome. The one place I have in mind was sheeting individual balls that were die cut. Here also the scrap had plenty of bench flour on them. The scrap was literally just tucked haphazardly into the center of the next ball and folded. It wasn't weighed so I guess it was just eye balled. So it maybe worth a try  ??? [size=78%].[/size]
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #627 on: February 15, 2014, 08:31:46 PM »
Lydia, do you know if Me n Eds does the same practice?


Which part?


Me & Eds tosses out all dough on day 7 but the quality gets bad on day 5.


Sam thing with the cheater dough and no room temp. ferment, I can't go past day 4.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #628 on: February 16, 2014, 11:28:02 PM »
It's obvious this video is meant to be educational, but not too educational, as alot of "stuff" is missing.  I think it is a self promotional giving kudos to the dough men, who are the most important employees they've got.  I was hoping the video would jive with other recollections of procedures as well as maybe things you as customers might have seen.  I do have a few thoughts though, not being a customer, but from watching the video and reading the extensive recollections of Elittle and that one guy, and reading some of your observations.
First off, the more layering one does to dough, the smaller the cells, the more tender the dough.  I have done the tests regarding many layers, and believe me you can get almost delicate dough at 30 plus layers.  Yet from the video and verification from others, it looks like a total of 3 layers for RTP....except of course for the scrap dough.  Each piece of scrap dough which is added to the scrap pile in itself can create a good pizza...but when you pile 15 pounds of scrap together and then sheet it down, you are further squeezing cells...so the addition of scrap dough is essential to the texture of the final dough.  In fact, they "could" add the scrap from dough roll 1 into dough roll 2 and get the same results.  But they feel, by refrigerating for a day, they will also get added flavor.  If that extra day means that much to flavor, one could also mix a batch of dough, refrigerate for 2 days (instead of 1), and then laminate the dough using more layers (assuming not using scraps), to achieve the the profile texture you are looking for. 
When the dough guy cuts the sheet, all he is doing is making sure there is enough slack in the sheet (after it has been pulled down the table) so that his pizzas won't look like eggs after he cuts them out
As for the flour, we use All Trumps at 36%, when you mix it 7 minutes and let it rise, its as soft as a pillow....7 minutes in a big machine can do a little work on dough.
The parts of this process which are conflicted to me is the flouring.  The dough roller guy remembers using lots of flour on the dough, between the folds and even on the machine.....the video doesn't seem to show that, even at the trifold there is very little flour.....I believe the video is the more correct procedure, having made laminated dough most of my life.  So, why the discrepancies?,  one reason is that everybody has their own way of doing things.  Another reason, the dough rolling job used to be given to the lowest man on the poll when I started in the business......the job just wasn't that important in the old days.........but, it sure is today!!
John

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 834
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #629 on: February 17, 2014, 12:22:03 AM »
John, I think your experiments showing several variations on the process prove that having the right tools makes this process more flexible. For instance, I cannot fathom All Trumps at 36% mixing by hand. I end up with a crumbly mess that is not really incorporated. Having a mixer with some power behind it does the flour more justice. So from that angle, I would say if you have the right tools (a good mixer, a sheeter, a good oven, etc.) then this style is much more forgiving to the nuances of how the dough is prepped. With the constraints of the home setting, several variables need to be worked around or fixed, such has using a higher hydration, purposely under-mixing, using warmer temperatures, etc.  For those in the know, there's a great appreciation for keeping this style consistent in a commercial setting.

I think it could be done either way, heavily floured or flourless, (the main issue is probably preventing sticking to the sheeter's rollers) but the point being is the tools of the trade allow for this flexibility. I suspect the video was made to have less flour so the process doesn't look messy. Not that it matters in a functional sense, but it's more appealing to the viewer. I have seen decent results both ways.

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #630 on: February 17, 2014, 10:22:26 AM »
The parts of this process which are conflicted to me is the flouring.  The dough roller guy remembers using lots of flour on the dough, between the folds and even on the machine.....the video doesn't seem to show that, even at the trifold there is very little flour.....I believe the video is the more correct procedure, having made laminated dough most of my life.  So, why the discrepancies?,  one reason is that everybody has their own way of doing things.  Another reason, the dough rolling job used to be given to the lowest man on the poll when I started in the business......the job just wasn't that important in the old days.........but, it sure is today!!
John


Thanks again John


I just wanted to verify that I also have always seen copious amounts of flour being used at RT, on the bench, during sheeting and at the machine were the dough is being fed through. Although the flour is brushed off with a long narrow brush on the top of the dough.



The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #631 on: February 18, 2014, 08:03:20 PM »
John, I think your experiments showing several variations on the process prove that having the right tools makes this process more flexible. For instance, I cannot fathom All Trumps at 36% mixing by hand. I end up with a crumbly mess that is not really incorporated. Having a mixer with some power behind it does the flour more justice. So from that angle, I would say if you have the right tools (a good mixer, a sheeter, a good oven, etc.) then this style is much more forgiving to the nuances of how the dough is prepped. With the constraints of the home setting, several variables need to be worked around or fixed, such has using a higher hydration, purposely under-mixing, using warmer temperatures, etc.  For those in the know, there's a great appreciation for keeping this style consistent in a commercial setting.

This is dedicated to you Dan (your answer provoked it) and to you Lydia (your video reminded me of things I should have tried)

Back in 2009 I verified by experiment something I knew would be true:  I took a piece of dough and way undermixed it, I then split it in half, threw half back in the bowl and mixed it moderately more.  I then made two skins from each of the batches, one was simply sheeted, the other was laminated.  I then had 4 skins to compare....I had an undermixed sheeted skin, an undermixed laminated skin, a moderately mixed sheeted skin and a moderately mixed laminated skin.  The moderately mixed laminated skin was the clear winner.  Here is the experiment:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6604.msg65968#msg65968

It seems to me, the only part of the lamination process which hasn't been worked on is the initial mixing of dough.  We all know that a Kitchen Aid just isn't up to the task....and so we all seem to piece together little pieces of dough and try to make pizza out of the mess.  Well, I've been working a ton with stretch and folds lately, and I wondered how they would work on low hydrated dough.  My second question was, if the stretch and fold works, will I still be able to sheet my dough using only a rolling pin.

Here goes the experiment.  I used Peter's RT recipe to make a 15 ounce piece of dough (the size of this piece is important as I'll explain later).  I put all of the dry ingredients into my bowl and then added the liquid (as hot as the tap would give me).  I then used the paddle and on the lowest speed, I mixed until all of the pieces were picked up and made one piece (this was less than a minute using the paddle).  I then took the dough, worked into a flat disk, put it in an oiled freezer bag and placed in a barely warm oven.  After 15 minutes, I did a stretch and fold, and then placed back in the oven.  After 15 minutes, I did another stretch and fold and placed back in the oven for another 30 minutes.  I took it out of the oven, and you know it looks like real dough that you get from a mixer, no shards and pieces...100% real dough.  At this point one could put his dough into the fridge for a day if he wanted to...as for me I  I took the dough and on my bread board quickly sheeted a 13 by 20 inch very thin sheet.  This took less than 2 minutes to do.  I then folded the dough in thirds and then in half (6 layers), and rolled this to between one eighth and three sixteenths inches. (This took another 2 minutes at most).  I then cut 4 small pizzas out so that I can test how they age.  After my skins were cut, i used my rolling pin to thin them exactly where I wanted them......they ended up on average to be 6.25" diameter and weighed 2.8 ounces.  I then stacked them between parchment, put in a plastic bag , and put in the freezer for one hour( I want them ice cold).  I then placed them in the fridge to be use later.

John
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:06:40 PM by fazzari »

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #632 on: February 18, 2014, 08:10:58 PM »
I went to work this morning with my RT skins.  Here is one that has been in the fridge for 18 hours (since being sheeted).  It was baked in a 535 degree deck and took 6 minutes.  The pizza was excellent!!!!  This makes me wonder about developing the next batch a  little more, and what affect it will have on the pizzas...I'm dieing to know.  Also can't wait to see how the current skins age.
John

Offline wsonner

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Mont Vernon, NH
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #633 on: February 18, 2014, 08:21:37 PM »
A little information...I use a Kitchenaid Commercial Mixer (not the Pro, but the actual commercial version).  My typical batches are 1889 grams with a 48% hydration, using KA AP.  The mixer doesn't "power" through it, but it does a good job. This produces three 630 gram balls for 16" pies.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:28:48 PM by wsonner »


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #634 on: February 18, 2014, 10:07:13 PM »
Man I like the looks of that pizza John. Thank you for your continuing experiments...you rock!  :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline tinroofrusted

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1376
  • Location: OC, CA
  • Experimenting....
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #635 on: February 18, 2014, 11:59:08 PM »
I agree with Bob. Those pizzas look really good. Kind of like the old RT near my college campus lo those many years ago.  Keep up the great experimentation!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #636 on: February 19, 2014, 08:17:41 AM »
A little information...I use a Kitchenaid Commercial Mixer (not the Pro, but the actual commercial version).  My typical batches are 1889 grams with a 48% hydration, using KA AP.  The mixer doesn't "power" through it, but it does a good job. This produces three 630 gram balls for 16" pies.
I can appreciate that!  But, I'm attempting to create a process which will work with even a lower hydration rate if wanted.  I also would like the process available to ones who don't have a mixer at all...and most of all, I am fascinated with the stretch and fold process and how quickly it strengthens dough.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #637 on: February 19, 2014, 08:19:11 AM »
Man I like the looks of that pizza John. Thank you for your continuing experiments...you rock!  :chef:

You're too kind...but remember I'm a selfish man..

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #638 on: February 19, 2014, 08:19:44 AM »
I agree with Bob. Those pizzas look really good. Kind of like the old RT near my college campus lo those many years ago.  Keep up the great experimentation!
Anything for good eats my friend!
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #639 on: February 20, 2014, 01:04:46 PM »
The continuation and end of an experiment today.  Just a recap:  It is hard to properly mix low hydration doughs at home mainly because of lack of mixer or lack of strength of mixer.  I know that lamination develops dough, but that doesn't mean one has to laminate super low developed dough as the only development.  I have found that the stretch and fold is an amazingly efficient and simple way to develop low hydration doughs.  My first experiment, I used two stretch and folds and had excellent results.  I was wondering if additional stretch and folds will further help in the process.  We should reach a point where the skins will not be as good.

Yesterday, I mixed a batch of RT dough (30 ounces).  I again used the paddle attachment to the KA and mixed less than a minute (just long enough to bring the mass together...no dough development here).  I then split the dough in half, formed flat disks, put in oiled freezer bags, and placed in a barely warm oven.  After 15 minutes, I folded each of the doughs.  At 30 minutes I again folded both doughs.  At 45 minutes, I again folded both doughs.  Now one of the doughs is done and will sit in the oven for 30 minutes prior to sheeting.  At 60 minutes dough 2 was folded for the last time and will sit 30 minutes prior to sheeting.

Dough 1 (folded 3 times), was sheeted out as thin as possible on my board, and then folded into a 6 layer rectangle for final sheeting.  It took a little more energy to sheet, but really wasn't that hard.  Just took my time and let the dough relax a couple times.

Dough 2 (folded 4 times) was handled the exact same way as dough 1.

I cut out skins averaging 8.25 inch in diameter and weighing 4.60 ounces.  I stacked between parchment, placed in freezer bag, put in freezer 1 hour and then placed in fridge over night.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #640 on: February 20, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »
Here is a pizza from the 3 fold dough.  It looks pretty good on the outside.  Took longer than normal to bake.....and it is not as tender as other doughs I've made.  I'd call this a failure.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #641 on: February 20, 2014, 01:16:27 PM »
The 4 fold dough is even worse.  Looks good externally...but this guy is tough!!   Huge failure here.

It looks to me that for my uses, I will use the 2 fold method when making cracker doughs at home.
John


Offline wsonner

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Mont Vernon, NH
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #642 on: February 20, 2014, 01:40:19 PM »
They look freakin' good to ME! :-)

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #643 on: February 20, 2014, 11:15:56 PM »
They look freakin' good to ME! :-)
You know as well as I.....looks don't tell the whole story?!
John

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 750
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #644 on: February 21, 2014, 10:22:18 AM »
They look freakin' good to ME! :-)

Yes they do.  ;)  :-D

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #645 on: February 21, 2014, 03:13:21 PM »
Yes they do.  ;)  :-D

-ME
I want a remake!!  :-D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #646 on: February 21, 2014, 08:38:59 PM »
John


I'm not familiar with the stretch and fold your referring to. (I'm so behind on everything thats gone on around here for the past 2 years  ::) [size=78%] Is there a thread you can point me to or would you describe it for me.[/size]
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #647 on: February 21, 2014, 11:23:26 PM »

I'm not familiar with the stretch and fold your referring to. (I'm so behind on everything thats gone on around here for the past 2 years  ::) [size=78%] Is there a thread you can point me to or would you describe it for me.[/size]
Lydia
It was your video that reminded me of the stretch and fold....I hadn't considered it for a cracker dough!!!  So, thank you!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29760.msg300814#msg300814

John

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #648 on: February 23, 2014, 12:13:01 AM »
Lydia
It was your video that reminded me of the stretch and fold....I hadn't considered it for a cracker dough!!!  So, thank you!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29760.msg300814#msg300814

John
Ok, so does this mean we're going to see something new(again,as always 8)) out of the famous Fazzari camp?  :)

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #649 on: February 25, 2014, 12:22:13 AM »
Ok, so does this mean we're going to see something new(again,as always 8)) out of the famous Fazzari camp?  :)

The learning never ends Bob!...thank God for that cuz it keeps life interesting.  I just finished an experiment using the stretch and folds on a low hydrated dough, and using my new sheeting method......wrote it up in the cracker crust section.  I ate some amazing pizza today.
John


 

pizzapan