Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One (Read 185897 times)

Lydia · « **Reply #500 on:** February 08, 2012, 06:37:25 PM »

ME:

Yah my favorite RT does too. You should've seen me, they had holiday spray snow on the window. I'm just a couple of inches of 5' so I had to tippy-toe to see through it. Kid in a candy store "i tell ya". The only thing I learned from the viewing was that the sheeted dough is folded (top and bottom) lengthwise to the center without much overlapping. I didn't get to see how many times it was folded. And I was surprised to see that they used a knife to cut around the die as a template. It was much faster than using the die as a cookie cutter.

They had too many new pizza combos to try. I went the the pepperoni xtreme. It has 3 different styles of pepperoni. the Classic, an Italian that had a larger diameter and hint of salami and then the mini "cup n char" pepperoni's that I think was Swiss American. The Italian might have been Columbus. Both are brands haven't used for years, so I can't say for sure. But I really enjoyed the contrast of flavors. I never even thought to do that on my own....kinda funny.

I also gave the pepperoni twists a try but this RT has higher oven temps that are great for the pizzas but not so good for the twists, they were very dried out.

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #501 on:** February 10, 2012, 10:21:56 PM »

Here are those pics i took a couple years ago in Gridley, CA, along with a pic of a slice of their artisan Margherita pizza. I have to say, as much as my wife and I like RT, we were not impressed with this pizza. Everything was different, and not in a good way. They should let the more upscale, foo-foo places do a proper margherita pizza and stay with what they are best at.

Lydia · « **Reply #502 on:** February 11, 2012, 11:12:36 AM »

ME

Quote from: Mad_Ernie on February 10, 2012, 10:21:56 PM

Here are those pics i took a couple years ago in Gridley, CA, along with a pic of a slice of their artisan Margherita pizza. I have to say, as much as my wife and I like RT, we were not impressed with this pizza. Everything was different, and not in a good way. They should let the more upscale, foo-foo places do a proper margherita pizza and stay with what they are best at.

That Margarita looks dried out. I can't imagine that I would be impressed either.

I've come across your photos on flickr, but I don't recall the one of the workstation with the dough on the counter. I like that one.

[quote author=Mad_Ernie

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #503 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:32:52 PM »

Lydia:

It was dry. But the flavor just wasn't there, either. Very 'meh'.

I save my best pizza photo-work for you and folks here on the Pizza Forum.

-ME

DNA Dan · « **Reply #504 on:** February 11, 2012, 08:22:50 PM »

Man that Somerset sheeter they use is built like a TANK! Ditto on the margherita, that looks disappointing. I might be headed to the Bay Area this spring and driving through Burney, CA. I noticed there is a RT pizza there....

BLAH! Just read it was converted to a different pizza place. Oh well I guess I will have to hold out until we get to Redding.

DNA Dan · « **Reply #505 on:** March 03, 2012, 10:29:35 PM »

Another video on youtube I just found. This is the RT in Kailua, Hawaii. Looks like some really nice owners. At about the 3 minute mark there is some footage of the parmaesan twists being prepped.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HifI7sHR2jU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HifI7sHR2jU</a>

Lydia · « **Reply #506 on:** March 04, 2012, 01:39:59 PM »

EXCELLENT Find Dan!

I really enjoyed that one. She seems to have a true passion for RT pizza.

Did you notice the deck ovens they were using weren't firebrick? That kinda surprised me. I'm not sure what kind of oven that actually is, but I'm thinking that the open holes on the walls indicates that it is still using some type of convection.

I did noticed that they were using un-coated, but well seasoned heavy gauge aluminum pans. I'm finding that I get better results with those pans once a good layer of seasoning is built up.

I've got the recipe for the orginal creamy garlic sauce, the non-ranch dressing version, all formulated in my head. I just haven't gotten around to testing it to make sure I have the ratios right and I need to test it on the crust yet.

DNA Dan · « **Reply #507 on:** March 04, 2012, 03:33:35 PM »

I did not notice the ovens. I was too busy examining the edge of the dough skin

Good catch! If you could, send me a PM with your garlic sauce recipe, I'd like to check it out. I have done a few things here and there, but nothing spectacular. I assume they are using a small dough skin which is pulled like a square then folded like a taco for this?

I think the pans are just for Non-pizza related items. They put the pizza right on the deck without paper or anything. I have never done the cornmeal - right on the deck cooking before, so I am going to try this next. She says it's the only deck oven in Kailua?? Wow.

Lydia · « **Reply #508 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:25:21 AM »

HA! Finally Found the RT University training video. http://www.everythingisterrible.com/2010/04/training-by-slice.html

Most of it is reinforcing customer service and handwashing until nearly the end then it goes into the crust a bit.

Thin crust skins 50%scrap/50% fresh.
See some of the older curved-rim uncoated pizza pans as well as a newer coated screen.

Then they weigh the BAG of RT mix
Water temperature is taken with Taylor instant-read stem-type thermomter under running water
Dry mix is added to mixer bowl
Dough is mixed on speed 6 I think I goofed on this, I believe this is actually the timer set for 6 minutes.

Lydia · « **Reply #509 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:26:44 AM »

Dan:

Quote from: DNA Dan on March 04, 2012, 03:33:35 PM

If you could, send me a PM with your garlic sauce recipe, I'd like to check it out. I have done a few things here and there, but nothing spectacular. I assume they are using a small dough skin which is pulled like a square then folded like a taco for this?

I'll revive the old thread and post there. Found here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6477.0.html . I gave it a try the other night and I'm happy with the filling. I was having a "bad dough day", though. I'll try to get around to posting it today, but I'm feeling a bit under the weather, so it may be a day or two.

Only just recently (within the last 4 years or so) have I seen some RT's using the thin pizza skins. Traditionally the twists are formed from 12-13 inch wide dough sheets cut into specified lengths. and I don't know if there was any difference in the thickness from the thin skins, but there didn't appear to be any.

Lydia · « **Reply #510 on:** March 08, 2012, 12:57:41 PM »

Quote from: Lydia on February 08, 2012, 02:21:22 PM

I will be the first person to say it's not "perfect", something isn't quite "there". Although I've got a funny feeling that its something along the lines of hydrolyzed yeast extract, which would fall under the category of "natural flavoring", and not not affect the 11 herbs and spices claim on the label.

http://www.roundtablepizza.com/rtp/PDF/RTP_Allergen_Chart.pdf

Hah! It's hydrolyzed corn protein

Parm/romano blend in table cheese shaker
BBQ sauce is Sweet Baby Rays: has to be a recent change.
and another confirm: **Garlic Parmesan Twists are made with RT Dough.

DNA Dan · « **Reply #511 on:** March 10, 2012, 08:55:30 PM »

Wow Lydia that is an interesting video find. It seems like the video is a mish-mash of several videos cut together. The subject just jumps around from one topic to the next. 50% scrap, never would have thought it to be that high.

I tried the twists with my scrap dough tonight. I didn't try the formula you posted. I made a concoction of butter, ranch, parmaesan and Johnny's garlic spread. (The kind from Costco.) Came out pretty tasty. I also didn't know if regular 80/10/10 pizza cheese is in there, for some reason I recall there being regular cheese in there. Anyway, hopefully the photos do it justice.

DNA Dan · « **Reply #512 on:** March 10, 2012, 09:01:31 PM »

I have also been experimenting with some dough conditioners in the RT clone formulation. Seeing that many members use much lower hydrations than what was calculated for the RT dough, I thought I would try something lower with some PZ-44 to increase the machinability of the dough. Here are the specs for the following pie, comments following.

Flour (100%):
Water (42%):
ADY (1.5%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%):
Shortening (2%):
PZ-44 (2%):
Total (153.5%):

499.67 g | 17.63 oz | 1.1 lbs
209.86 g | 7.4 oz | 0.46 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.98 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
9.99 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
9.99 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp
9.99 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.56 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
9.99 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.5 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
9.99 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 4.23 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
767 g | 27.05 oz | 1.69 lbs | TF = N/A

DNA Dan · « **Reply #513 on:** March 10, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »

The dough was more workable with the PZ44. I would say it behaved more like a 45ish % dough than it did like a 42% dough. It's still difficult working with doughs <45% because it really seems like the flour isn't fully hydrated.

The pizza was the old standard, pepperoni, mushrooms, sausage, fresh garlic, then hit with parm once cooked.

Results: The pie didn't puff up as much as my higher hydration doughs do. I put it through the typical sheeting process, sheeting cold dough in the morning, cooking it in the afternoon. No bulk ferment. 24 hr cold ferment. Yeast activity was minimal and I have seen the same 1.5% yeast give huge volume in doughs of higher hydration.

Taste: The crust was more crackery and flaky than I am used to. I would say this was more along the lines of the DKM crust than a RT crust. Not much flavor to it, (I really missed the beer in there.) There wasn't a serious crunch with soft tooth on top, rather the structure was more uniform from bottom to bottom of sauce, being more like a saltine cracker. The lack of puffiness also made the pie thinner than I am used to. Even with using the same sheeting thickness adjustment.

I think for the next pie I will come up to 45% hydration.

Lydia · « **Reply #514 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:18:47 PM »

Dan those look awesome! Is that your malty recipe??? Looks like you've got the thickness and width nailed. If it's not right they wont twist properly and just look fugly

Quote from: DNA Dan on March 10, 2012, 08:55:30 PM

I tried the twists with my scrap dough tonight. I didn't try the formula you posted. I made a concoction of butter, ranch, parmaesan and Johnny's garlic spread. (The kind from Costco.) Came out pretty tasty. I also didn't know if regular 80/10/10 pizza cheese is in there, for some reason I recall there being regular cheese in there. Anyway, hopefully the photos do it justice.

The current RT uses their Buttermilk ranch dressing with raw garlic (may be jarred),grated Parmesan, minced herbs, and a sprinkling of the pizza cheese blend. After twisting they brush the top with something (looks like a liquid butter) and sprinkle with more parmesan and herb blend before twisting.
Quote from RT Marketing Dept. for the Parmesan Twists

Quote

. The following are the ingredients (the Creamy Garlic Sauce does contain eggs):
•   Dough (same as the pizza dough)
•   Creamy Garlic Sauce (same as the white sauce on pizza) – This contains EGG products
•   Three Cheese Blend (same as the cheese on pizza)
•   Twist Seasoning
•   Chopped Garlic

Up until August 1993 it was simply a butter blend with minced truely raw garlic (not from a jar) with fresh grated, not shredded parmesan. If I am remembering correctly the cheese blend was being added toward the late 80's just before the switch to the Buttermilk Ranch.

Quote

Branching beyond pizza, Round Table has planned a late summer rollout of an appetizer item called garlic-Parmesan twists -- fresh-baked bread sticks with garlic, herbs and cheeses. August 2, 1993

The quote I have says they are 1 inch but 1.5 to 2 inches is more correct.

Quote

"These are 1-inch seasoned strips that we fold over and twist," Hennessey explains. "We thought, 'What if we put those on top of the Mama Zella?' So, instead of twisting them, we laid them flat across the top like a lattice."
bread twists

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #515 on:** March 11, 2012, 08:31:57 PM »

Quote from: DNA Dan on March 10, 2012, 09:09:44 PM

The dough was more workable with the PZ44. I would say it behaved more like a 45ish % dough than it did like a 42% dough. It's still difficult working with doughs <45% because it really seems like the flour isn't fully hydrated.

Results: The pie didn't puff up as much as my higher hydration doughs do. I put it through the typical sheeting process, sheeting cold dough in the morning, cooking it in the afternoon. No bulk ferment. 24 hr cold ferment. Yeast activity was minimal and I have seen the same 1.5% yeast give huge volume in doughs of higher hydration.

Taste: The crust was more crackery and flaky than I am used to. I would say this was more along the lines of the DKM crust than a RT crust. Not much flavor to it, (I really missed the beer in there.) There wasn't a serious crunch with soft tooth on top, rather the structure was more uniform from bottom to bottom of sauce, being more like a saltine cracker. The lack of puffiness also made the pie thinner than I am used to. Even with using the same sheeting thickness adjustment.

I think for the next pie I will come up to 45% hydration.

Dan, the pizza looks great! I am counting the days until I get to California and have some of the real deal.

I am wondering if for the RT dough if you need to up the hydration to 48-50% even without any dough relaxers or conditioners. I don' think of RT as being crackery as some other similar crusts (like Shakey's). Is 42% the normal percentage you use for your RT clone, or was this the first time you tried this recipe?

I admit that for myself, without a sheeter, I can't handle any dough less than 42% hydration. I think for those doughs <42% hydrated that you are correct that some amount of dough relaxer/conditioner is essential. I feel there is still some piece that is missing given the videos we've seen of how the Shakey's sheeted dough looks, but I am still puzzled. It must be in some way they handle or rest the dough. I think we've got the ingredients down pretty well.

Thanks for your tireless efforts.

-ME

DNA Dan · « **Reply #516 on:** March 12, 2012, 02:13:19 AM »

48% is where Peter calculated the hydration based on the bag of mix, the dough weights, etc. provided by Elsegundo. The malty crust I have dialed in at this hydration as well. It's basically the RT clone with beer added into the liquids.

The reason I have been going down in hydration is two-fold. The first reason is the discussion in the Shakeys thread and the video which shows a very dry dough. I was curious as to how this would laminate and whether I would see more or less puffiness. In my hands, my yeast actually starts to decrease in activity quite a bit at ~42%. Then again I am using ADY. The second reason I have been trying this was inspired by the experiments that John (aka Fazzari) has done. He gets into the high 30's with his hydration and still manages to get some crackery goodness. I think what I have concluded is that it's really a presonal preference. The dough is still crackery at lower hydrations, but it's a different kind of crackery. It's more of a uniform saltine cracker that is actually tender to the bite. It has some snap to it, but it's not "crunchy" per se. As the hydration goes up, the texture resembles more like RT. There is a definite crispy layer like a potato chip on the bottom layer, then a layer of gummy texture below the sauce. Hard to describe really. So what I was trying to do is see if I can retain some of the lower hydration dough qualities, but make it more workable with the conditioner. This may give the rolling pin folks some hope. Also I am hoping to see where I have approximately 100% flour hydration. Below that, the yeast is negatively affected, above that and the extra water in the skin plays differently on the texture.

DNA Dan · « **Reply #517 on:** March 13, 2012, 11:47:50 PM »

Found an interesting tidbit online tonight researching flours. I was looking at Pendleton flours when I saw this:

http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php

Could be coincidence, but they talk about the pizza craze of the 50's. Gee I can think of about 6 that came about during this time that all have laminated crusts. Interestingly enough, Mondako flour is more along the lines of APF in terms of protein content but this is explicitly recommended for thin crust sheeted skins. Their power flour (similar to All Trumps) is suggested for thick and chicago styles. I'll have to track some of this down.

They also have an excellent resource there on baking with their flours, (which again reiterates using ~11-12% protein flours for sheeted doughs.) http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf

Perhaps I need to re-think the AllTrumps. Especially with it lacking so much flavor.

Reading about Pendleton Flours, it states they bought a company called Fisher Flour mills a while back. Searching for Fisher flour mills yields this buried thread, which I have never seen by Elsegundo: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1959.0

Doesn't that sound like the RT ingredients and process from the RT premix? Interesting...

fazzari · « **Reply #518 on:** March 14, 2012, 01:30:53 PM »

Quote from: DNA Dan on March 12, 2012, 02:13:19 AM

48% is where Peter calculated the hydration based on the bag of mix, the dough weights, etc. provided by Elsegundo. The malty crust I have dialed in at this hydration as well. It's basically the RT clone with beer added into the liquids.

The reason I have been going down in hydration is two-fold. The first reason is the discussion in the Shakeys thread and the video which shows a very dry dough. I was curious as to how this would laminate and whether I would see more or less puffiness. In my hands, my yeast actually starts to decrease in activity quite a bit at ~42%. Then again I am using ADY. The second reason I have been trying this was inspired by the experiments that John (aka Fazzari) has done. He gets into the high 30's with his hydration and still manages to get some crackery goodness. I think what I have concluded is that it's really a presonal preference. The dough is still crackery at lower hydrations, but it's a different kind of crackery. It's more of a uniform saltine cracker that is actually tender to the bite. It has some snap to it, but it's not "crunchy" per se. As the hydration goes up, the texture resembles more like RT. There is a definite crispy layer like a potato chip on the bottom layer, then a layer of gummy texture below the sauce. Hard to describe really. So what I was trying to do is see if I can retain some of the lower hydration dough qualities, but make it more workable with the conditioner. This may give the rolling pin folks some hope. Also I am hoping to see where I have approximately 100% flour hydration. Below that, the yeast is negatively affected, above that and the extra water in the skin plays differently on the texture.

Dan
I know you're experimenting with conditioners....have you ever tried using diastatic malt. I've started using it a bit trying to alleviate some problems I'm having with new crop flour. With as little as .15% malt, there is a definite change in quality and texture of dough.

I had a second thought I'd throw out at you. At the franchise I worked for when I was a kid (a take off on Shakeys), they used what they called "bakers cheese" in their dough as a flavoring. It was like a cheddar cheese powder, the kind of cheese that makes excellent macaroni and cheese. It gave our dough a light yellow tint. Maybe this is one of the flavors you are looking for??
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vermont-cheese-powder-6-oz
John

DNA Dan · « **Reply #519 on:** March 14, 2012, 03:07:01 PM »

Interesting. I think the cheese powder is also in the dough flavor that they sell. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/pizza-dough-flavor-4-oz#

I had purchased this a long time ago but never got a chance to try it. It smelled like it had spoiled on me.

Thanks for the tidbit, I'll have to add the cheese powder to my dwindling list of mystery flavors to try.