Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 273352 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #525 on: April 29, 2012, 12:53:31 AM »
Have either of you had any luck with singing pepperoni reproducibly? I have been focusing heavily on this with the conveyor oven but I am just not getting it right. I have tried high heat, low heat, slow passes, fast passes, etc. and it seems the cheese and everything else gets singed before the pepperoni. Is this a function of the pepperoni itself? Or is it more the direct blast of hot air from the oven? I have the ends of the oven open so I can fit the height of the pizza in, so right now I am more radiant and less indirect heat.

I made 3 pies for a small gathering tonight and people were talking about them all night. I hope they were being honest!

Also ME did you ever try that Vermont cheese powder?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 12:55:06 AM by DNA Dan »


Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #526 on: April 29, 2012, 05:40:51 PM »
Dan

I don't "always" get crisped edges but that is because I don't always use a long preheat.

If I am remembering correctly you scored the smaller tabletop conveyor, the shorter oven length may be may be working against you, in addition to the fact that it is open at both ends allowing heat to escape.

I don't recall if it used any convection or not and I don't recall seeing the tabletop versions having impingement systems. If it has convection, it "should" be able to crisp the pepperonis.

It may be the brand. Some brands are formulated not to crisp, others are cut thicker to prevent charring. Just a half mm. makes a huge difference. Food service brands have a numbering system such as 15-16 (# per oz.). This pepperoni, technically speaking, isn't considered to be a crisping pepperoni unless the manufacturer is using a larger/smaller than standard diameter. The exception is the cup and char pepperonis  (e.g. Mountain Mike's Swiss American) these are usually cut thicker but they char due the natural casing and high fat content.

If this is the case, there are a couple of things that can be done.
1 Store pepperonis loosely and uncovered overnight in the refrigerator to evap. some moisture.
2 Very short precooking; skillet or microwave. Microwaving actually works better because it cooks the edge first.

Hope this helps.

Forgot to add that even room temperature pepperoni will crisp better than when cold or chilled.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 07:07:41 PM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #527 on: April 29, 2012, 07:52:34 PM »

2 Very short precooking; skillet or microwave. Microwaving actually works better because it cooks the edge first.

Hope this helps.

Forgot to add that even room temperature pepperoni will crisp better than when cold or chilled.


I concur with these suggestions from Lydia, especially:
A) use room temperature pepperoni to start with, and
B) pre-cook the pepperoni (I've used a microwave for 30-45 seconds on high).  It drives off some of the excess grease and 'prepares' it for a nice cooking in the oven when it is on the pizza.  The pep tends to crisp up much better when you do these two things (at least it has for me when I've used pepperoni).

-ME

Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #528 on: April 29, 2012, 10:11:52 PM »
I know the oven length is a factor, so I simply slowed down the conveyor. This however comes at a cost of having to cook the pizza at a lower temperature, closer to ~425. This I think is further complicating the matter and not properly singing my toppings as much as I would like. Also, it's not an impingement oven- it just has a fan in there to act as a convection..

The issue with the ends being open or closed has to do with the amount of toppings on the pizza. The thickness can vary depending on what I pile on there. I decided I needed to keep this variable constant so I opened them both up all the way for my last bake. This allows me to get my bubble popper in there and would fit any conceivable topping list. I definitely saw less singing and more overcooked cheese. This probably gives more weight to the fact that it's the dry heat and not the radiant heat that singes the pepperoni. The problem with keeping these more closed is when do I close them? and when can I open them? Once the pizza goes in? Then also I need to open it up to get the bubble popper in there because I have not perfected the ability to consistently prevent really outrageous bubbles from forming.

I have learned a lot about this style from the cooking however. Using the perforated disks with this oven is similar to using a stone in a regular oven @475. The edges are puffy, less so in the middle. However, once I take it off the perf. disk and put it right on the conveyor, BAM - I get huge swelling across the whole pie. I think the typical pizza stone in a home oven has an inadequate heat transfer for the laminated skin. I'm sure this depends upong the thickness of the stone and how long it's preheated, but on the next pies you guys cook, try comparing the puffiness to a pie baked on a stone vs. a regualr pizza screen. What I have observed is if the skin "cooks" before getting blasted with enough heat, it stiffens up crunchy and does not allow the steam to swell the layers upward. The swelling needs to be occuring well before half the cooking time is up. I know the older RT franchises used the spiral deck ovens, but I think there's two things working against replicating this in a home oven. 1) Those commercial decks have a lot more mass and 2) The perf. disk setup used primarily today is done with an impingement oven of some length.

I will be switching to regular pizza screens to improve the puffiness with my short oven length. I guess it's going to be a "special case" and not completely replicate what is done in the restaurant.

Offline Tory

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #529 on: June 19, 2012, 09:36:33 PM »
I realized when I looked at the Round Table recipe that it really should go in the America syle section of this website.
I will publish everything there soon (this week).

But- here is what I can share now.
I have the pizza crust mix from the company with the instructions.


Pre-mix: total exactly 24.25 lbs

Flour
salt

Crisco
sugar
non-fat dry milk
yeast


water 11 lbs at 80-85 degrees


from El Segundo and Sacramento


Ok, you mention "Crisco"; I'm assuming this is the liquid Crisco (oil) rather than the old 'canned' stuff that looks like lard?

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #530 on: June 21, 2012, 10:08:33 AM »
Dan's photos on the last page sure look delicious.   :chef:  I haven't read the entire thread (yet), but can anyone tell me if you all have arrived at a good formulation for home ovens, and where i can find it?  I see the formulation Dan was using with his conveyor on the last page, but it looks like he was making some adjustments there. 

Thanks!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #531 on: June 21, 2012, 09:12:28 PM »
Ok, you mention "Crisco"; I'm assuming this is the liquid Crisco (oil) rather than the old 'canned' stuff that looks like lard?
Tory,

Never underestimate the power of lard!   ;D
Reading some of this thread ,I see that Dan is using lard. Not sure ,but I believe Roundtable has been around since back in the day....very common ingredient in those pizza joints back then and an especially good tool when used as DNA does in his laminated process that he has down to a T...IMHO.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #532 on: June 22, 2012, 04:42:35 PM »
It's the solid at room temperature Crisco.  This is NOT traditional "lard". Traditional lard is pig fat. Solid Crisco is hydrogenated vegetable/soybean oil.  

The solid crisco gives this style a crunch with a fair amount of tooth to it. This is what has been concluded to be in the mix bag found in this thread listed as: partially hydrogenated soybean oil, etc.

I find using Lard (sold by Armour brand) gives less tooth than Crisco does. I find it makes the bottom have more "snap" like a corn chip. The crunch is less tender.



Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #533 on: June 22, 2012, 04:57:46 PM »
Dan's photos on the last page sure look delicious.   :chef:  I haven't read the entire thread (yet), but can anyone tell me if you all have arrived at a good formulation for home ovens, and where i can find it?  I see the formulation Dan was using with his conveyor on the last page, but it looks like he was making some adjustments there. 

Thanks!

The basic formula as originally worked out by Peter using dough weights and ingredients from a bag of RT mix can be found on page 6 of this thread, reply #111 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.100.html

There are two basic approaches, one with a sheeter and one without. Since you ask about the "home" version, I will assume you don't have a sheeter. What you basically need to do is undermix the dough. If you cut in the shortening and the final dough is in small "pea-sized" grains, that's perfect. Just put all of them in a bad and compress a bit together. Let this ferment a few days. (notice the minimal amount of yeast in the dough.) When rolling out your skin, let the dough warm up before attempting to roll, then roll it with minimal number of passes. Some folks roll it once, refrigerate and just cook it as is. Others roll it super thin and superimpose 2-3 layers on top of each other as Lydia describes.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #534 on: June 22, 2012, 05:14:12 PM »
Sorry Dan, got things kinda turned around there last night, Yes, we used lard back in the 70's and I did notice a muck better crunch factor when I tried your recipe using shortening...Much better. The contrast of the crunch and a bit of chew on this dough is really something unique, thanks.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #535 on: June 22, 2012, 08:45:43 PM »
Solid Crisco is hydrogenated vegetable/soybean oil.  

Dan,

I believe that the Crisco you described is the Crisco of old. As you can see from http://www.crisco.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?groupID=17&prodID=315, the new Crisco has changed.

Peter

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #536 on: June 22, 2012, 10:19:19 PM »
The basic formula as originally worked out by Peter using dough weights and ingredients from a bag of RT mix can be found on page 6 of this thread, reply #111 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.100.html

There are two basic approaches, one with a sheeter and one without. Since you ask about the "home" version, I will assume you don't have a sheeter. What you basically need to do is undermix the dough. If you cut in the shortening and the final dough is in small "pea-sized" grains, that's perfect. Just put all of them in a bad and compress a bit together. Let this ferment a few days. (notice the minimal amount of yeast in the dough.) When rolling out your skin, let the dough warm up before attempting to roll, then roll it with minimal number of passes. Some folks roll it once, refrigerate and just cook it as is. Others roll it super thin and superimpose 2-3 layers on top of each other as Lydia describes.

Thanks Dan!

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #537 on: June 23, 2012, 06:53:00 PM »
So it has been a while since I got my dough sheeter and I haven't really had much time to experiment since we have put our boat in the water for summer. Its a real crummy weekend so I decided it would be a good time to work on some things. This dough recipe is one that my dad worked on back when we were at Round Table. He was trying to clone the dough and we had a lot more access to ingredient lists and could do side by side comparisons. Which he did pretty much every day. We were bigger fans of the thick crust which this recipe is really good for. Its not a perfect recipe because while it produces a good tasting thin crust it gets a little to much rise and not enough crisp for a thin crust. Now that I have the sheeter I can start trying to figure out why. Here is my dough recipe.

I typically make the dough a night or two before I'm going to use it. I made two batches this time. I place them in the fridge in plastic bags like we did at Round Table.

Typically for the thins we would do 50% Fresh and 50% scrap from the day before. I didn't have any scrap for this round but I will for tomorrows attempt.


750 g (100%) Bread flour
367 g (48.93%) 95 degree water
11.3 g (1.51%) Red Star ADY
19 g (2.53%) salt
4.17 g (0.56%) sugar
6.16 g (0.82%) Dry-milk
5 g (0.67%) Oil

The red sauce that I use is a combination of one that my dad worked on (when he got the spice bags that came pre - mixed with the spice list) and one I had found on reply #12 here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1586.0. The overlapping ingredients were close to similar amounts. Here is the red sauce. While I feel it is very good I have yet to figure out what it is missing or what it has to much of. I only have this in volume not as percentages. If anyone feels like trying it or giving me any pointers it would be appreciated. The sauce is best after a day or two of sitting.

48 oz. Tomato Paste
36 oz. Cold Water
7 tsp Paprika
2 tsp Cumin
1 Tbsp Oregano
1 1/2 Tbsp Basil
4 Tbsp Garlic Powder
1 tsp Salt
4 tsp Sugar
2 Tbsp Sage
1 tsp Rosemary
4 tsp Thyme
1 Tbsp Marjoram
1 1/4 tsp Cayenne
2 tsp Onion Powder
2 tsp White Pepper
5 tsp Fennel (I take fenell seeds and grind them with a Mortar & Pestel)

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #538 on: June 23, 2012, 06:56:31 PM »
The dough roller is set up in the garage which isn't ideal, but it is out there with the perfect pizza accompaniment.

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #539 on: June 23, 2012, 06:57:46 PM »
more

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #540 on: June 23, 2012, 06:58:50 PM »
..

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #541 on: June 23, 2012, 07:00:06 PM »
Thick & thin crust.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #542 on: June 23, 2012, 10:26:32 PM »
pizzajosh,

 Sounds like you have a really great dad and you guys definitely have the right idea for your "research room"!  ;D   Thanks for the pics, please keep 'em coming. With that sheeter you have I think I would tend to agree with you about maybe concentrating on the thin crust pies. DNA Dan is the man with the type of work you are doing so I look forward to your results as you tweak this....thanks!

Bob
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #543 on: June 25, 2012, 05:43:13 PM »
The overlapping ingredients were close to similar amounts. Here is the red sauce. While I feel it is very good I have yet to figure out what it is missing or what it has to much of. I only have this in volume not as percentages. If anyone feels like trying it or giving me any pointers it would be appreciated. The sauce is best after a day or two of sitting.

48 oz. Tomato Paste
36 oz. Cold Water
7 tsp Paprika
2 tsp Cumin
1 Tbsp Oregano
1 1/2 Tbsp Basil
4 Tbsp Garlic Powder
1 tsp Salt
4 tsp Sugar
2 Tbsp Sage
1 tsp Rosemary
4 tsp Thyme
1 Tbsp Marjoram
1 1/4 tsp Cayenne
2 tsp Onion Powder
2 tsp White Pepper
5 tsp Fennel (I take fenell seeds and grind them with a Mortar & Pestel)

Try ground coriander. It has a peculiar citrus zest to it. Also, I would back off on the cumin by at least 50%.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #544 on: June 26, 2012, 06:40:57 PM »
Nice pizza there, pizzajosh.  I'm liking your style.  Looks like you've hit on a good recipe and method.  Keep up the good work and send more photos, please.

 :)

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #545 on: June 27, 2012, 12:36:47 AM »
Pizzajosh, took your recipe for a spin this week and wanted to share some photos. With the added yeast and reduced oil amount over the RT clone, I have to say I didn't really notice the difference. First pic is following your recipe 100%. The only difference is in technique. Second pic has a hydration ratio of 42%, all other ingredients the same. Working with All Trumps I have to say the 42% is pushing it. Dough was crumbly with unincorporated flour. I had to wait for it to generate some moisture on the bag so I could fully incorporate it. Your dough recipe was good, but seemed a bit fragile on the crunch for All Trumps at 49%. It was nice to have two extremes because I think I have dialed in the All trumps at about 45-46% for the structure I am after. This give a good supporting crust that isn't too snappy nor too delicate. It's also good to see the recipe being a bit more forgiving than it seems. What bread flour are you using?

Pies are the reference standard, pepperoni, mushroom, sausage with a pinch of crushed garlic.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 12:39:11 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline pizzajosh

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #546 on: June 28, 2012, 11:09:44 AM »
Unfortunately I don't actually know the brand of the bread flour. I get it out of the bulk section at our WinCo. I am going to try to get to our closest Cash & Carry or maybe Costco for future experiments. At lesat then I may have a better idea of what I am using.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #547 on: June 29, 2012, 05:14:34 PM »
Pizzajosh, took your recipe for a spin this week and wanted to share some photos. With the added yeast and reduced oil amount over the RT clone, I have to say I didn't really notice the difference. First pic is following your recipe 100%. The only difference is in technique. Second pic has a hydration ratio of 42%, all other ingredients the same. Working with All Trumps I have to say the 42% is pushing it. Dough was crumbly with unincorporated flour. I had to wait for it to generate some moisture on the bag so I could fully incorporate it. Your dough recipe was good, but seemed a bit fragile on the crunch for All Trumps at 49%. It was nice to have two extremes because I think I have dialed in the All trumps at about 45-46% for the structure I am after. This give a good supporting crust that isn't too snappy nor too delicate. It's also good to see the recipe being a bit more forgiving than it seems. What bread flour are you using?

Pies are the reference standard, pepperoni, mushroom, sausage with a pinch of crushed garlic.

Dan:

I have to say from strictly a visual perspective that those pizzas look dynamite!  ;D
They really have a look of RT about them.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #548 on: June 29, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »
Thanks ME. Now if I could just get the flavor of the crust to follow suit...Still missing that "Secret" ingredient.

As for toppings, I find most things don't make too much of a difference at the retail level. As long as it's fresh, it tastes great.

We just got back about a month ago from a trip to Modesto, CA and had the RT there. I must say I was completely disappointed. The pizza was so overcooked. Cheese was burnt on the top. The sauce was SO spicy that it actually had a "salsa" flavor to it. I don't know if this is catering to the predominant Hispanic community there or what, but it did not taste anything like the RT I remember from just a few years back. I wish I would have tried another store in a different location while I was there.

Offline wsonner

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #549 on: November 24, 2012, 12:32:42 PM »

The red sauce that I use is a combination of one that my dad worked on (when he got the spice bags that came pre - mixed with the spice list) and one I had found on reply #12 here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1586.0. The overlapping ingredients were close to similar amounts. Here is the red sauce. While I feel it is very good I have yet to figure out what it is missing or what it has to much of. I only have this in volume not as percentages. If anyone feels like trying it or giving me any pointers it would be appreciated. The sauce is best after a day or two of sitting.

48 oz. Tomato Paste
36 oz. Cold Water
7 tsp Paprika
2 tsp Cumin
1 Tbsp Oregano
1 1/2 Tbsp Basil
4 Tbsp Garlic Powder
1 tsp Salt
4 tsp Sugar
2 Tbsp Sage
1 tsp Rosemary
4 tsp Thyme
1 Tbsp Marjoram
1 1/4 tsp Cayenne
2 tsp Onion Powder
2 tsp White Pepper
5 tsp Fennel (I take fenell seeds and grind them with a Mortar & Pestel)

One suggestion...I believe RT uses Hungarian Paprika. I switched and it made a big difference.