Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 246594 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #600 on: October 15, 2013, 04:40:12 PM »
You just need to bite the bullet and get a sheeter! ............ (All in fun of course!  :P )


Welllllll, If I could get the "deal" that you got, then maybe. There's a annets on ebay for a good price, but still out of the budget for now.  :(   [size=78%]But I'll tell you, with all the moving I've had to do (nearly every year for the past 7 years) I'm rather thankful I didn't have pack one. [/size] ;D


This way it just forces me to be more creative. :chef:


--------------------------


I gave the new pizza oven a go. "Very" impressed so far.


I had the upper chamber and stone temps. nearly equalized, then I had an issue with a couple of the burners and had to have them replaced. (by the way CampChef was awesome about it.)


I was messing around with the burners to trouble shoot the problem, and WAY over shot the ideal temp. I promise... I only went a touch above the Medium setting. I ended up with a RT/ Neapolitan hybrid. :-D 


I made two 14" non-layered RT skins. Both pies bubbled almost instantly, and they cooked thoroughly in 3-4 minutes. They had to be rotated once (as to be expected, it's a bit hotter in the back), cheese properly melted, toppings done and crisped but I had leoparding all over the bottom[/size][size=78%]. [/size] ::)

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #601 on: October 15, 2013, 05:21:35 PM »
Any pictures Lydia?  :pizza:
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #602 on: October 15, 2013, 05:39:28 PM »
Nope, not this time. Sorry  :(  I know how helpful the pics are. This one was particularly interesting and a bit entertaining though. 


I can't find my camera charger since we moved-in. It wasn't packed in a box, so it out and about somewhere.


I will get some pics next round though. Promise! I know it will take a few times before I nail down the temp range. Boy, I sure do like the faster preheat.


I think I'm going to pull off the top and take some internal pics too. Kinda a neat set-up.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #603 on: October 16, 2013, 01:12:27 AM »
I can't imagine how big your "guns" must be Lydia from all the baking you do.
 ;D
BTW - Did you know this thread is over 8 years old now? Man how time flies.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #604 on: October 16, 2013, 09:50:09 AM »
I can't imagine how big your "guns" must be Lydia from all the baking you do.
 ;D
BTW - Did you know this thread is over 8 years old now? Man how time flies.


Dan


I actually "love" that this thread is that old. I see it as a testament of the passion and dedication of those to this style. I have often wondered if I should start a new thread, but this style truly lives and breaths here. When it was initially moved to American style, I literally worried it would get lost and over-looked.  But clearly that's not the case. Poor little cross-bread that it is.[size=78%] [/size]


Just yesterday I was thinking that pizzamaking.com isn't really a community, as much as it is a "Pizza Metropolis"! This site is insanely HUGE (topics, subtopics, and lengthy threads that span over nearly a decade). I mean you "literally" have to ask for "directions" when you get on this site. I seriously couldn't imagine being a newbie today. I even get lost trying to catch-up when I haven't been on for a while. I'm so glad that the cross-reference links are in the thread but man, I can have 5 windows open from where I originally started.  :-D


____________________________________________________________________
The Kitchenaid has contributed to the gradual decline of the shear girth of my forearms. Still hard as a rock, but smaller.  ;)
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #605 on: February 13, 2014, 02:53:39 PM »
Has anyone seen this?


John

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #606 on: February 13, 2014, 03:11:40 PM »
John


Absolute AWESOME find!


Thank YOU!
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #607 on: February 13, 2014, 03:22:54 PM »
FWI


the site were I have my vid is going to paid annual membership, so it will be pulled off real soon.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline wsonner

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #608 on: February 13, 2014, 03:50:09 PM »
Awesome! 

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #609 on: February 14, 2014, 01:27:51 AM »
Very revealing about the technique. From the video I am seeing:

1) 50% New dough, 50% old dough laid on top of one another.
2) After sheeting together, the fold is lengthwise. (I have been folding width-wise)

It doesn't show how many times this is done, but from the thickness they start with, I'd imagine they have at least 2 passes folding it lengthwise to get it down thin enough.

Damn John!! Now I need to make some pizza this weekend.  :chef:


Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #610 on: February 14, 2014, 03:19:37 AM »
FWI

the site were I have my vid is going to paid annual membership, so it will be pulled off real soon.

John,

Great work finding this!  It should help us get even closer to this style.  Lydia, which video are you referring to?  Do you have a link?

Looking forward to seeing some more great pizzas with this new info.

Tim

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #611 on: February 14, 2014, 06:42:46 AM »
Hey there Rocky


If you click the globe under my name it should take you right to it. It's at Viddler.


It was for the rolling technique for the Cheater Dough.


I'm really hoping I'll be able to find the time to do a new one using a pasta roller with an electric attachment. Just not sure where/how to make it available now?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #612 on: February 14, 2014, 08:15:00 AM »

a quick recap on the scrap dough process.


Round Table Fresh Scrap Proceddure Aug. 2012I was able to catch the skins being cut and caught how the Fresh scrap was processes.The scraps were set aside uncovered while the worker finished cutting the skinsThey were stacked on a solid pizza pan (serving pan) and set on a lower shelf unwrapped without the deli-wrap.The scraps were placed in a plastic grey bus pan, weighed to 17 lbs, and pressed firmly into the bin to make a somewhat solid mass.The pressed block of scraps was dumped onto the work bench and pressed thinner. This took a bit of time and strength, two fisted, pushing down with all his weight. It still looked scrappy.The dough was put through the sheeter one time. (Sheeter wasnít the typical Sommerset it was an Acme.)I donít know the setting, I couldnít see it, sorry. But it was somewhere about 4 ft. long after sheeting.You could still see the lines from the scrap pieces even though it technically was smooth. (see pic for reference)This was folded lengthwise into 3rds, and then it was rolled from the short end into a coil.Placed in a clear food service bag and labeled with 17 lbs with a marker and taken to the back.The skins were brought up to the bench and the skins were peeled one from another and deli-wrap squares were placed between each skin and stacked on the pizza pan. (The skins were a bit tacky and didn't release very well.) (Food service Deli wrap is moisture and grease proof and is cheap, so makes way more sense than using parchment.)Pizza pan and all were placed into another clear bag and taken to the front.Cheese amts. have dropped toOrignal large 11 oz.Pan 13.5 oz


If you read further down in that thread, Elittle/Evan (former Manager) gives an out-line of scrap use for 15 pounds of dough.

I was a manager at a chain of them for a while, and I will tell you what i remember for the dough process, its been a few years though. And ThatOneGuy seems to have good knowledge of what he was talking about.First we started off by putting the 24 pound sack of crust mix into the mixer like stated by ThatOneGuy and mix in 11 pounds of water at 80/85 degrees or so. You put it all in the bowl of the hobart mixer and let it mix for 7 minutes. Then once it is done we used large food bags, resembling garbage bags, and you put the dough into the bag and get all the air out of it and then tape the end of the bag shut. Then we would put it into the walk in to be used the next day. The next day when you go to take out the dough the garbage bag has fully expanded and is huge with all the gas from the fermenting dough.The dough we made was never used the same day. If we needed more we would drive to another store to get more, but if it doesn't have the time to proof in the walk-in then it just doesn't turn out right.At the end of the night, all of the pan and thin pizzas that weren't sold are recycled into scrap dough, usually into 15 pound bags, and put in the walk-in at the end of the night.The next morning, it was procedure to take a 15 pound block of scrap and roll it out in the sheeter to about a 3 foot by 1 foot slab, then to cut a 15 pound section of fresh dough made the day before and roll it out to the same size. You then put one on top of the other and  sheet it out to about 5 or 6 feet long an 12" wide, then kind of tri-fold it over on itself to create the "Snake". We then rolled that back through the sheeter about 6 or 7 times until the proper thickness was achieved then we used a steel circle with a handle on it to place on the sheeted dough and then cut out the skin with a rounded knife. They were stacked 10 to a tray on a metal pizza pan and seperated with wax paper. They were immediately put back into the walk-in after being cut. This is the process for the thin pizzas.For the thick pizzas, we would cut off a chunk of dough from the fresh dough made the day before, and weigh it on a scale until the proper weight was achieved. Then you shape it into a ball and put it through the sheeter on one setting, I think it was 7, and it comes out as an oval, then we put it back through, on setting 3 or 3.5, and it would come out as a round pan dough. We stacked them 5 high on plastic pizza trays separated with wax paper and left them out at room temp for 45 minutes to rise again, then put them back into the walk-in......
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #613 on: February 14, 2014, 08:37:26 AM »
I have seen Round table fold both directions in the same sheeting session. Top to bottom and lengthwise.


When I was working with the pasta machine technique. I found that I had to fold top to bottom to widen the sheet and lengthwise would lengthen the sheet. Too many times in one direction then you are back to square one. I actually got to watch one inexperienced roller do this at the RT in the bay area.


I think this is where the "finesse and experience of the dough maker" comes into play. Starting out with dough in the proper width for the desired skin size, reduces how many times the dough has to be sheeted. The more you have to work the dough the tougher the crust gets.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #614 on: February 14, 2014, 09:11:23 AM »
Lydia's Video notes




Time mark 1:17 - this is the scrap dough, note the coil on the side.


Time mark 1:26 - despite the slightly craggy/bubbly top of the dough being sheeted, to me, these look like 2 sheets of fresh "non-scrap" dough. The top dough is just as moist as the other one. The dough from the coil should appear to be drier and denser. see time mark 1:35


1:33 - Also note that both sheets here are rolled the same width.  ???  Maybe these are suppose to be 2 strips of scrap????


1:35 The Tri fold. This is how I have seen the scrap dough used. It is encased lengthwise into fresh dough. Similar to making puff pastry.


1:44 Flouring and Z-stack


1:49 I haven't seen this done "every time". I assumed this was marking how many skins could be made from the sheet. But it may be both.


1: I personally haven't seen the thin crusts weighed only the thick crust.


2:01 Please note that the skins are stacked on deli-wrap not wax paper or parchment. Wax paper is too light weight and parchment to heavy. Moisture migration is too high with wax and parchment as well.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #615 on: February 14, 2014, 12:39:53 PM »
This is awesome!!!! ;D  :chef:

Thanks John, and everyone else for your contributions to this quest.   ;)

- ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #616 on: February 14, 2014, 08:23:04 PM »
I love your video Lydia....so very nicely done! You're a Pro man and I'm going to see if you have other vids.
Thank you!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #617 on: February 15, 2014, 02:02:28 AM »
I guess I never really paid attention to which direction I fold because my sheet is short enough I can just turn it 90 degrees before making the next pass. This idea of encasing the scrap dough reminds me of the process for making croissant dough where a block of butter is encased, rolled then folded inward. I think I understand the layer separation a little better now. The scrap dough has probably been worked quite a bit so contributes little to the puffiness of the crust. It is however acting as a barrier between the fresh dough layers that haven't been worked yet.

Two things caught my attention in your repost of ELittle's comments.

First he states, "The next morning, it was procedure to take a 15 pound block of scrap and roll it out in the sheeter to about a 3 foot by 1 foot slab, then to cut a 15 pound section of fresh dough made the day before and roll it out to the same size." So basically the "working dough" already has a 24 hour ferment on it, then scrap dough (who knows how old) is then added to that. He does confirm the ratio being 50/50. I could see this process as an ongoing thing where you are constantly seeding the next batch with scraps from the previous one. Difficult to do in a home setting.

Secondly, he states, "The next day when you go to take out the dough the garbage bag has fully expanded and is huge with all the gas from the fermenting dough." This said and looking at the video, I have to say that dough is not that dry. You can see how it comes off the sheeter how it flops over on itself. A low 40% hydrated All Trumps dough does not behave like that after sheeting. It feels more like a piece of worked clay. Which brings me back to one thing. THE FLOUR.

The description of the spring and winter wheat grown in Idaho brings Pendleton Mills in Blackfoot, ID to mind. Mondako? Then again that is supposed to be Montana and Dakota grown wheat. Slight oversight on their part? Mondako is the only flour I know of that has the following description:

Milled from a blend of Northern winter and spring wheat, Mondakoís consistent mixing time and water absorption is ensured by careful patent stream selection. Known as the foremost flour for pizza operations, it is also chosen by bakers for its high tolerance with laminated and frozen baked goods. Noodle manufacturers prefer Mondako for a whiter color in their dried or fresh production.

Are there other flours out there like this? I've tried Mondako before, I'll have to review my notes. I did not however try it with overworked scraps that have been aged.


Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #618 on: February 15, 2014, 10:09:13 AM »
I guess I never really paid attention to which direction I fold because my sheet is short enough I can just turn it 90 degrees before making the next pass. This idea of encasing the scrap dough reminds me of the process for making croissant dough where a block of butter is encased, rolled then folded inward. I think I understand the layer separation a little better now. The scrap dough has probably been worked quite a bit so contributes little to the puffiness of the crust. It is however acting as a barrier between the fresh dough layers that haven't been worked yet.





As long as the scrap dough isn't too old (gluten degraded) I feel that we are seeing a rise from trapped steam and less yeast driven as we both have suspected in past.


When we sheet the dough, we are creating layers of dusting flour that are not fat coated. After resting, this flour will eventually get hydrated through moisture migration. How much migration is determined by how much water is still available and how much time is allowed for this to happen. (I'm sure temperature plays a roll as well, but for now I don't know the specifics.) This is what creates flaky layers pie pastry (no levening). Its the unevenness of water absorption by the flour. The more the shortening is broken down in the premix the more the individual flour particles are coated.  In croissant dough, you have a high amount of uncoated flour with large layers of fats that melts to create voids. Very similar but a bit different.


Of the few times I was able to see the scraps used, not only are they are dryer but the scraps are well coated in bench flour. They don't adhere so themselves "at all" while setting out waiting to be used. They didn't even stick together when they were pressed out with full upper body, 2 fisted pressings to prepare it to go through the sheeter.  Believe me, it looked like a TOTAL mess! They only stuck together after they went through the sheeter. Even after that, you could see the outline of each scrap on the surface. It really explains the quirky intermittent layering that can show up.

These are very exaggerated in Me & Ed's pizzas where the center layers are much drier than RT and the outside more hydrated. Something to keep in mind since M&E gets better bottom crisping.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #619 on: February 15, 2014, 10:19:28 AM »

Two things caught my attention in your repost of ELittle's comments.

First he states, "The next morning, it was procedure to take a 15 pound block of scrap and roll it out in the sheeter to about a 3 foot by 1 foot slab, then to cut a 15 pound section of fresh dough made the day before and roll it out to the same size." So basically the "working dough" already has a 24 hour ferment on it, then scrap dough (who knows how old) is then added to that. He does confirm the ratio being 50/50. I could see this process as an ongoing thing where you are constantly seeding the next batch with scraps from the previous one. Difficult to do in a home setting.



I think it perfectly do-able just a bit more work but not more than say a preferment.
I think if I were going to make "intentional scrap". I would run it through the sheeter and take a pizza wheel and cross hatch the sheet. If needed maybe toss them with flour, then press the bits into a rectangle shaped container with edges, a sheet pan or cookie sheet of similar width as the sheeter. So for a pasta maker, that would be something like a Tupperware deli cold-cut container or the shallow disposable Rectangle Rubbermaid ones that you can get anywhere.
Hmmm.....It will be interesting to figure out how to manage that scrap from there out though  :-\
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.