Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 223990 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2006, 12:28:42 PM »
Would there be any reason that I couldn't use the non-fat milk powder I typically use in my doughs? Or is whey going to a significant difference the thin crust doughs?

Has anyone come-up with a scaled formula yet?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2006, 01:28:08 PM »
Look at Pete's wonderful entries on Round Table Part Two. I personally double the recipe because I am more accurate at larger quantities.

Pete (I think it was he) has some theories on commercial versus store-bought non-fat milk but I can't recall where I read them.

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2006, 07:32:29 PM »
Hi zappcatt,

I tried both of your links to images, and both are giving errors saying the image doesn't exist, but your
website is up and running.  Did you remove the images ? or are the links not correct ?


I am not ThatOneGuy, but can answer some of the questions.

A couple more pix:
A couple bags of dough asking me to take them home(sadly I did not)
(http://www.zackuribe.com/Doughbag.jpg)

A BAD picture of the "pizza cutters" used to form dough from the sheeter. You can actually see some skins on discs in the holder behind them(the top one is actually a little warped).
(http://www.zackuribe.com/PizzaCutter.jpg)

Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2006, 03:54:43 PM »
I have been further working on this recipe trying to improve the "texture". I am now looking at different flours. Based on the package label alone the flour is said to contain: "Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour, (Bleached Wheat flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid.) Since RT has been around for some time, I assumed their flour was most likely coming from and older mill, so I started with the most popular, being General Mills. A quick visit to their website shows a few good candidates. Basically we need an ENRICHED, BLEACHED, WHEAT, MALTED FLOUR. http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.asp?type=WBread

A few good candidated would be:
King Kaiser
Supreme High Gluten
Gold Medal Superlative
Big Loaf
Sure Loaf
Golden Gate

All those flours except GOLDEN GATE have Ascorbic acid added as a dough conditioner, which isn't listed on the RT package. The protein level in Golden Gate is about 11%. This seems to be ideal since the RT crust isn't necessarily a chewy texture. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on this particular flour? Perhaps I am oversimplifying this, but I can say that the recipe done with KASL flour is not true to genuine RT. The crumb is totally different.

Also, how did you folks arrive at the % composition of the salt, sugar, and dry milk? Is this just an educated guess?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 03:57:36 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2006, 04:26:43 PM »
DNA Dan,

It's been quite a while since we played around with the numbers but my recollection is that we made educated guesses based on the way the dough ingredients were rank ordered in the ingredients list. When I do these kinds of reverse engineering exercises I sometimes try to peg a particular ingredient like salt, which has a narrower range than other ingredients, and then fill in the gaps above and below the salt in the ingredients pecking order. In my case, I was hampered by the fact that I have never seen (other than in photos) or eaten a RT pizza, so I had no good frame of reference for what I did. I had better luck with the Donatos dough clone but there I had a fanatical member, Wazatron, who analyzed Donatos pizzas inside and out and was able to give me a lot of feedback to be able to tweak the recipe.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2006, 11:43:17 AM »
Peter,

That makes complete sense. It's a good approach too. I wish you could try some of this pizza crust because it's not like a typical dough. It's more like a biscuit, which is why I think it uses a lower protein flour, and one that is nowhere near what you might see in a NY style crust. If I put up closeup pictures would that further help? I'd send you a slice but I don't know how far you live from me  :-\

Based on the bag that was posted, all the ingredients are correct. Flour, salt, sugar, shortening, dry milk, yeast but it just doesn't produce the right type of crumb. Thats why I thought a baking flour might be a closer match. Your thoughts? I'd like to figure this out because I really think this is the key to most cracker style crusts and would please the Shakey's, Straw Hat and RT fanatics out there.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2006, 01:17:30 PM »
DNA Dan

If it will help, I can reread everything on the RT pizza and dough processing. Since I last worked on this project I have had more opportunities to reverse engineer other dough formulations so I may be a bit smarter now. It would certainly help to see some close-up photos. It would also help to have a detailed description from you of the typical RT crust in terms of its thickness, texture, color, crumb, etc., to the extent that the close-up photos don't show these characteristics.

When I revisited the RT dough ingredients list this morning, and the dough formulation I posted, I saw that salt was just below water. I used 1.75% salt since that is a common amount without making the crust overly salty. From the formulation standpoint it could be increased to about 2% and not affect the saltiness of the crust all that much, and that would allow one to increase the shortening to about the same value. However, I think that there are other factors at work that may be more important than the amount of salt and shortening or any of the other ingredients for that matter. Flour selection may be one such factor as you noted but it is also possible that the biscuit quality comes from the way the dough is rolled out, including re-introducing scrap dough into the process.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2006, 01:31:24 PM »
Quote
but it is also possible that the biscuit quality comes from the way the dough is rolled out, including re-introducing scrap dough into the process.

Pete
I just read a rant from a former RT empoyee about how finding a good dough roller was crucial. Unfortunately he didn't give any details.

I have just a few pics of the thick crust. They are primarily of the bottom crust. I'll post them real quick if you think it will help.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2006, 01:35:44 PM »
I have just a few pics of the thick crust. They are primarily of the bottom crust. I'll post them real quick if you think it will help.

Lydia,

Thank you very much. The more information, the better. No need to rush.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2006, 01:58:30 PM »
Peter the hurry is on my part, if I dont do it now, it may not get done.

I wish these pics were better, these were taken at Arco arena and the pizza was being balanced on my lap.

These slices also suffered being carried around in insulated bags, so the bottom crust is a bit more pliable than average from the trapped steam.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2006, 02:17:13 PM »
Lydia,

Thank you. As least your pizza sample confirms the use of a perforated disk. The light crust color is somewhat a surprise, however. It could mean a lower protein flour, but it could be for other reasons, including the conveyor finger settings and oven throughput.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2006, 02:55:37 PM »
The light crust color is consistent with all the RT's I have had throughout California. Many of these places have different manufacturer's for their conveyor ovens, and I have seen variations on the oven temps, some as low as 375F.

The deep-dish gets run through the conveyor 1 1/2 times, and the color is still very light. Usual time through conveyer is about 15 minutes with a start that is close to the oven opening. Although an emplyee usually watches the pizzas and occasionally pulls a thin crust out early with the "bubble popper thingy".

The thin crust pizza's have also been very light (with the exception of a bubble that might have browned) with the crust edge color coming from sauce that has been spread to the edge that has cooked golden.

The tooth to the crusts reminds me of dough made with a flour blend with the typical flavor from an overnight rest in the fridge. I haven't tried to duplicate this crust in quite some time, years actually, but in the past the Pendelton Blend got close, but I don't think I ever got the hydration right (no scale at that time). I think I had the dough to dry.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2006, 03:08:00 PM »
oops.. I forgot to mention

They try to keep the thin crust as cold as possible and the thick crust is brought out in the morning to set at room temp all day.

The thin crust is very very similar to Shakey's/Sharkey's.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 03:11:54 PM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2006, 03:18:52 PM »
That deep dish looks an awful lot like Little Caesar's dough. (Still white and "blistered" after cooking) I assume they keep the thick crust out most of the day to get a better rise out of it?

I will go to RT tomorrow for lunch (I already bought mine today!) and take some pics. I am sure the people will think I am crazy!

Many thanks to all your contributions..  ;D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 03:27:38 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2006, 03:27:09 PM »

In regard to the scrap dough, I don't discount that this is probably a practice so as to keep costs down. However, there will be days when you run out of scrap dough, or you get slammed during dinner time and you need to make more dough. Having the "scrap dough" as a necessary REQUIREMENT for the flavor of the crust is not a sound business practice. I just can't believe a commercial place would do that as part of their trade secret. It's inconsistent and means a fresh batch of dough will taste different without the scrap. This is something I have never experienced with RT. The dough is usually the same everytime I have been there, different times, different days.

The sheeting is very important to this dough, I think that's been established and documented quite well already. Also, the pizza is docked (thin crust) everytime I have had it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2006, 03:40:04 PM »
Having the "scrap dough" as a necessary REQUIREMENT for the flavor of the crust is not a sound business practice.

DNA Dan,

What you say is correct. In fact, that is a point that Tom Lehmann makes from time to time with respect to using scrap dough. He says that customers come to expect the same thing in their pizzas time after time and that they will quickly notice inconsistencies in the crust. Many operators use leftover dough at the end of the day when the new dough batch is made, but even then it should not constitute a large percent of the total dough (it usually depends on the age of the scrap dough). If the practice is followed routinely, then the dough shouldn't change much day to day.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2006, 03:52:32 PM »
Some RT dough is a bit denser than other days, and takes on a texture that is similar to using dough that has been in the fridge for more than 3 days. But I haven't noticed a flavor diference.

I assume that these are the days they have added scrape dough.

Not all round tables have this variation.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2006, 04:57:10 PM »
Here are some shots of the outside.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2006, 04:58:08 PM »
and some of the inside.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2006, 05:04:59 PM »
On the inside shots you can see where I tore the crust (left) vs. where the natural voids are (right). The crispy bottom is like a saltine cracker, but it's only about 2 mm thick. Above that the crust is layed and soft. It's like a biscuit in softness, but there is a smooth texture to it like you would find in a sourdough bread void. It's very difficult to describe.

I watched them cook this one. It went on the conveyor for 8 minutes total, only 5 of which it was under the heat. The conveyor oven has a front and an end that is open to the outside, with both ends having a staging area that isn't under the heat. It's radiant heat and not a convection type setup. Between this and the dough sheeting, I think that gives a good feel for the process of making the cracker bottom and layered top crust. The only thing missing now is the correct formulation to make a buiscuit type crust that is somewhat chewy, yet blisters upon heating with radiant heat.


 

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