Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One

[DNA Dan]

.

Did you mention what brand and style cheeses you used?

Actually the cheese wasn't anything special. I just used what I had in the house, because really I was focusing on the crust.

Mozzarella - Lucerne brand pre-shredded, typically in supermarkets, I would say like Albertsons

Provolone - First Street Brand from Cash and Carry in SJ. This was not the block. It was the "natural sliced". I know I know, It came as slices with paper in between so we had to bunch it up to shred it with a grater. I bought this one though because the block provolone there was "smoked provolone" and I didn't want anything overly smoky in taste. Perhaps this is key?

Cheddar - Kirkland brand from Costco. This was the medium cheddar block.

[scott r]

Hi everyone,   I just wanted to point out that the new flour arriving on your shelves soon (if not already),  the GM Harvest King, might be a good candidate for this recipe.  The ingredients and order look right.   The lady at GM told me that they have been making this flour for many years, but it is just now getting to consumers.  It is a Bread Flour, but on the weaker side as far as protein goes.  I would think that a weaker flour should be easier to roll out or sheet right?  I know I read something to the contrary somewhere on the thin crust threads here on the forum, but that doesn't make sense to me.

I also wonder if the flour Round Table uses could be the GM Golden Gate.   Round Table is from Walnut Creek just outside of San Fran.

[Pete-zza]

scott,

I recently checked out all of the flours listed on the GM flour website and also isolated the two flours you mentioned as possible candidates for the RT dough clone because both flours have the same general profile as the RT pizza flour and have generally higher protein levels than the all-purpose flours. The thought of using the Harvest King flour also ran through my mind the other day when I spotted the flour in my local supermarket for the first time. As I mentioned in an earlier post, GM itself recommends the higher protein flours for thin crusted pizzas. Hence, the migration toward the All Trumps as the next possible choice. As an interim step, DNA Dan could try using the Harvest King flour since it would be a low cost way of ruling it out in the event it doesn't produce the hoped for results.

Peter

[scott r]

well, I might spare you guys some trials as I made two batches of your latest RT dough recipe last night using the Harvest King flour.  I made one batch of dough with a higher hydration.  I am slightly modifying the recipe to include an 8 hour initial room temp rise.  I made this dough just before I went to sleep last night and it had perfectly doubled by the time I woke up this morning.  I punched it down and put it in the fridge so that I can make the pizza for dinner tonight.   I will let you guys know how it turned out.

[DNA Dan]

DNA Dan,

If you go to Potassium Bromate in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, you will see the purpose of the bromate and how it affects the dough. Basically, it keeps the dough in a risen state during proofing, just before baking. Bromated flours are preferred by many bakers who proof their doughs, such as deep-dish doughs, Sicilian doughs, etc.

Peter

So from what I take from that definition is that it helps keep a risen dough from "falling"? I think that might be something that works against the structure seen in the RT dough. We want the dough to collapse and not be very puffy in and of itself, the puffiness comes from the layers between the dough, not the dough itself per se.

[DNA Dan]

I think my local RT is on to me, I have been there 3 times in the past week!

Just some qualitative observations about their pizza while ordering and eating.

1) The perforated pizza pans are black and have fairly large holes in them. I have seen a fair amount of perforated pizza pans on the internet which have a lot amount of smaller holes. Those are not the right kind. The holes were about the width of a marble. I would say the holes are about 1/2" in diameter. Not all perforated disks are created equal.

2) The sauce base doesn't seem to be made from a fresh vacuum pack type of tomato (like 6 in 1's). I say this because the color is a dark pale red, kinda maroon. It's almost as though it was processed with heat like a paste tomato product. Their sauce does have a lot of pepper in it, but I don't think that would totally darken the tomatoes to this extent. The color looks like the result of oxidation of the tomato with either heat or air. I say it isn't 6in1's because even after I cook my pizza with raw sauce, the sauce still looks bright red. This one is dark throughout. 

3) The salad bar at my RT is stocked with a shredded cheddar cheese. I assume this to be the same cheese that goes on the pizzas. Tasting this by itself, it was somewhere between a medium cheddar and a sharp cheddar. It had bite, but not so much bite that I would call it a sharp cheddar.

4) I saw someone dressing a pizza that had ALL white cheese on it. I assume that the 3:1:1 ratio of cheese is not blended to go on the pizza, but rather each cheese is measured out. If the salad bar cheese is indeed the same stuff on the pizza, then that supports this idea. Unless of course the blending is part of the food prep. This still doesn't explain why I saw a red sauced pizza with no cheddar on it, especially since that blend ratio is part of the brand.

5) In terms of cheese, all three cheeses are put on the pizza prior to any toppings. There doesn't seem to be any topping cheese on the pizza or else you would expect to see it on the pepperoni in the photos I posted.

6) Also on the cheese, only one of the the cheeses seems to be responsible for any stretch in the cheese. There is only a little stretch to it. I assume the stretch is porvided by the provolone, since it is only 1 portion of the total blend. The cheese is more gooey than it is "stretchy".

6) The crust is inconsistent. Today I had my first so-so pizza at this RT. It was much more dense and the crust was more cracker-like. There wasnt' a lot of layers or voids in the dough. It was also thinner than the one I took photos of. This was closer to the DKM recipe in terms of thickness. There wasn't a very thick gummy layer at all. There still were some good sized bubble voids on the edge, but the middle of the crust virtually had no noticeable layering.

7) The pizza does have a smoke attribute which is most likely from things burning in the oven while it cooks.

The bottom of the crust was blistered, as though it had been fried. Further inspection led me to realize that I was eating a fairly greasy pizza. My hypothesis is that the grease and oil from the toppings and cheese flow over the crust, into the pan. This essentially is "frying" the crust in the pan like a Chicago style. The extreme edge of my pizza was burnt. Yes burnt, from this effect. This also explains to some extent the very dark burning on the top of the crust in the photos. I assume they don't actively add grease to the pans because they are just constantly burned and regreased after each gut bomb is cooked. This may impart a specific flavor inherent in their cheese or ingredients and definitely add to the smoke in the oven. The blistered bottom seems impossible to create if the pan were dry and grease free. With regard to the amount of "oiling-off" I would suspect this comes primarily from the cheese. They are most likely using a whole milk Mozz with a high fat content.

[Harv]

2) The sauce base doesn't seem to be made from a fresh vacuum pack type of tomato (like 6 in 1's). I say this because the color is a dark pale red, kinda maroon. It's almost as though it was processed with heat like a paste tomato product. Their sauce does have a lot of pepper in it, but I don't think that would totally darken the tomatoes to this extent. The color looks like the result of oxidation of the tomato with either heat or air. I say it isn't 6in1's because even after I cook my pizza with raw sauce, the sauce still looks bright red. This one is dark throughout. 

Have you noticed what type of lights are in the area you observed the sauce.  Fluorescent vs. incandescent or even just different fluorescent tubes can make a big difference in the perceived color of red objects.  I've noticed this in taking my sauce from the kitchen to outside.

[DNA Dan]

This particular store is not dark at all. I was sitting next to a window. They also have fairly bright flourescents in there. The store is on a corner so there are two walls of windows. If you look at the pictures Lydia posted of the deep dish, that shows the sauce a little.

[Lydia]

Has anyone clarified if "plain flour" is being used between the layers of dough instead of the RT Blend with the shortening in it?

[DNA Dan]

I think the jury is still out on this one. I could produce layering using my scrap dough, a pasta roller and lots of flour. After lunch today and seeing just how blistered the botton of the crust can be, I'm not entirely certain if this is oil from the cheese "frying" the dough in the pan, or if this is the shortening in the dough - or some special property of the flour they are using.

I look forward to the Harvest King results.

[scott r]

Ok,   I have to say that I am totally astonished at the results of my first ever attempt at a Round Table dough.  Pete-zza, your pizza designing prowess is definitely something to be very proud of.  I only wish I had this kind of luck in the beginning with my first Neapolitan pizza!  I did a number of things a little differently than what is outlined in the latest recipe and in this thread, including rounding up some of the ingredients, so it is possible that what I created was not really a clone.  Round table or not, this was honestly the best American style thin crust pizza I have ever tried. I can't believe that with my first attempt I was actually able to make a pizza that was better than what I set out to copy.  I would like to thank everyone involved in this thread for all the hard work here.  It has definitely paid off! 

I have to admit that my favorite thin crust pizza is not necessarily from Round table, but probably from the Pizza King/sir pizza chain that started in Indiana.  Although I loved round table when I tried it I couldn't help but think that Sir Pizza/Pizza King does a similar thing but slightly different in certain aspects like crust flavor and the bottom texture of the dough.  Because of this a few of my alterations in the recipe were based on trying to capture something a little closer to what I have tasted at Pizza King.  I think that any Round table fan would welcome these changes, so you guys might want to give this recipe a shot and see if you like how I altered it.   I don't think Pizza King/Sir Pizza does the multi laminated dough, so what I ended up with was a cross between the two with the best attributes of both.

Since I didn't have any dry milk I simply left it out.  This may be the biggest thing I did differently, and I plan on trying the recipe with the milk as soon as I can get some.   I am sure the milk helps the RT dough with it's flavor profile, but with the amount of fermentation flavors going on in my dough tonight it was not really missed.  There is a slightly beer like flavor, just a hint of it, to the Sir pizza/Pizza King crust.  I did not notice this at Round Table and I missed it.   The pizza I made tonight definitely had this subtle flavor because of how it was fermented.  More on this below.

I rounded up both the salt and the sugar from the latest recipe.  My digital scale moves in increments of 5, so for my dough I used 10g of sugar, 10g Crisco, and 10g of salt instead of the amounts listed in the recipe below.

100%, Flour, 481.08 g., 16.97 oz.
48.3%, Water, 232.36 g., 8.20 oz.
1.75%, Salt, 8.42 g., 0.30 oz., 1 1/2 t.
1.75%, Shortening (Crisco), 8.42 g., 0.30 oz., 2 1/8 t.
1.25%, Sugar, 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 1 1/2 t.
1.25%, Nonfat dry milk (Carnation), 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 4 1/8 t. (a bit more than 1 5/8 t. if baker?s grade)
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 1.92 g., 0.068 oz., a bit more than 5/8 t
Total dough weight = 744.23 g (26.25 oz.)
Thickness factor = 0.081

The dough was not too salty and I was unable to detect the sugar, so I don't think bringing these levels up hurt anything.  If anyting it added to the browning of the dough and the overall flavor.

I used the food processor method of starting with dry ingredients and adding the water last.   I have recently become aware of how important a good long knead is to my Neapolitan doughs.  I know the typical Cuisinart processing on this site doesn't call for much kneading after the dough ball comes together, but this dough is really halfway between a cracker crust and an American crust.  I decided I would give the dough ball a 5 minute hand knead after it came out of the Cuisinart.  This is a very stiff dough, but it can be done.

I used a 7 hour room temp fermentation (at 65 degrees) and a finished dough temp of 75 degrees.  The dough was then put into the fridge until I used it 6 hours later.  The fermentation was 13 hours total. The dough had not quite doubled when I put it in the fridge.  The pizza came out with a hint of beer flavor in the dough which I quite liked.  I don't remember this from RT, but I considered it a bonus.  I really wanted to give the dough a chance to develop flavor, and from working with my Neapolitan doughs I have learned how much of a positive impact a good amount of fermentation can have on the texture of a pizza as well.  7 hours at room temp seems to me to be at least the equivalent of two days in the fridge, so I was definitely fermenting more than RT probably does.

The General Mills Harvest King flour that I used seemed absolutely perfect for this style of pizza.  I will try a high gluten version soon, but I seriously doubt the dough could get any better than this.  Honestly I would not bother ordering flour on line etc. since this stuff is now in most major grocery stores.  If you can't find it just go to the General Mills website and you can find out who has ordered it in your area.  This dough had the perfect consistency.  It was very crisp on the bottom, but the layers of dough were soft above that without being at all bready.  The crust had the perfect amount of chew vs. crisp, and I fear that a higher gluten flour would make it too chewy. 

After I rolled out the dough and folded it onto itself I let it sit on my counter for 15-20 minutes.  I just felt like all that working of the dough to achieve the layers probably made it so that a rest before baking would improve the texture. 

I used a pizza stone, not a disk.  I just thought it would be nice to try on a stone as I pretty much always prefer deck oven cooked pies over screens or disks.  When I had the Round Table pizza I couldn't help but think about the Sir Pizza crust and how nice the deck oven made the bottom of the crust.

I sprinkled a little salt on the bottom of my stone before I cooked the pizza.  This gave the cracker crunchy bottom an extra zip of flavor that I will continue to do from now on.  Anybody familiar with Pizza King or Sir Pizza will know that is again where I got my inspiration for this move.

The pizza was topped with a 50/25/25 blend of Poly-O mozzarella, Bel Gioioso Provolone, and Kraft Cheddar cheese.  The sauce I used was Bonta from escalon with salt, oregano, garlic powder, and black pepper added in minute quantities.  It was very dark red, and not bright, so maybe it is close to what they use at RT.  It sure tasted good.

I have to say that this was one of my favorite pizzas to date and I am definitely going to make this recipe many times in the future.  I have already decided to use this recipe for my next pizza party.  Move over Neapolitan, here comes a good old American thin and crispy!

[Pete-zza]

scott,

There is nothing more satisfying to a pizza maker than getting results that are much better than anticipated. I'd love to see some photos if you can manage that sometime.

Interestingly, your final dough formulation after increasing the amounts of salt, shortening, and sugar to 10 g. each still abides by the pecking order of the ingredients used in the RT pizza flour blend. And the baker's percents of the salt, shortening, and sugar are all within normal ranges. If you had used the nonfat dry milk, the total weight would have come to 1502.96 g. (twice 751.48 g. for two pizzas). Your actual dough weight should have been just a bit less because of the omission of the nonfat dry milk. As a point of clarification, did you make 16" pizzas, as called for in the original dough formulation? I don't recall that your pizza stone was large enough for 16" pizzas.

I played around with my spreadsheet and if my calculations are correct I get the following as the basic dough formulation (for one 16" pizza plus a bit of scrap) you ended up with after using the increased amounts of salt, shortening, and sugar (I left in the nonfat dry milk):

100%, Flour (King Harvest), 481.08 g., 16.97 oz., 1.06 lb.
48.3%, Water, 232.36 g., 8.20 oz., 0.51 lb.
2.08%, Salt, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 1 3/4 t.
2.08%, Shortening (Crisco), 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
2.08%, Sugar, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
1.25%, Nonfat dry milk (Carnation), 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 4 1/8 t. (a bit more than 1 5/8 t. if baker's grade)
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 1.92 g., 0.068 oz., a bit more than 5/8 t
Total dough weight = 751.41 g. (26.50 oz.)

Peter

[scott r]

Peter, my stone is a 16 inch stone, but my pizza was a tiny bit smaller.   maybe 15.5.   Again, thank you for all your hard work.

[DNA Dan]

scott r,

After a post like that you have to put up some photos!!! I really would like to see this thing.

[DNA Dan]

I was able to accompany a neighbor of mine to a restaurant supply warehouse. He owns his own business. I checked out the cheese selection and they had a brand called "USA". I never heard of that before. Instead I grabbed the polly-o whole milk mozz. They also had Precious brand, but since I can get that in a regular store, I passed it over. I am hoping the whole mozz gives me the oil factor needed to fry the crust in the disk.

Checking out the flour selection, they carried mostly Con-agra flours. The sacks didn't really have any ingredient info, so you really had to know what you were looking for by name. I was hoping to snag some All Trumps, but they didn't carry it. They did have the GM Superlative, but what caught my eye was the Harvest King. I will try to reproduce the results written about by Scott r. I ordered some black perforated disks and they should be here within a week. From looking at the Harvest King label, everything matches the RT label except it's a non-bleached flour. I suppose this will only make a difference in appearance? The ink on the sack is also a "green" label. It says, "milled specifically for artisan baking". So I gather this is part of GM's effort to join the whole artisan movement that has been infiltrating the commercial restaurants. Stay tuned, another attempt 1 week!

Scott r, did you take pics of your pizza? If not, can you make another one, testing the reproducibility and take photos?

[chiguy]

 I have been reading this thread with interest but did not want to comment because i have never tried Round Table or Sir Pizza. I have had my fair share of thin crust pizza.
 I have also experimented quite a bit with cracker crusts recently and have concluded that all purpose flour makes a much better cracker crust. 
   Scottr,
 I noticed the Thickness factor of .081 used to make appox. 16in pizza with a 26.25 dough ball is incorrect.  A 16.27oz dough ball would be the size needed for a .081=TF.
 I do not know if 26.25 is the correct weight to use for your recipe?? but the TF would be .131... Just wanted to point it out because no one mentioned it.

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

If you reread Reply 82 you will see that the dough formulation is for an 18" x 18" square sheet from which a 16" skin is cut. The difference is scrap. Hence, the two weights, one for the sheet and the other for the skin alone.

I have not tried an RT or Sir Pizza pizza either, but I do not believe that either is a cracker-style pizza. I believe they are between a cracker-style and an American style.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Thanks Peter i did not notice it. So i am correct that the skin/ball should weigh about 16.27 give or take for the 16in the rest is scrap dough of 9.98oz?? I must say i find it easier to cut a skin from a much smaller piece of dough,closer to the size of the dough ball i would use give or take 1 oz. Rolling out a 18x18 in square seems much more difficult.
 
 Although one may not consider this craker crust at Round Table or Sir Pizza the formula being used here of below 50% hydration is in line with a craker crust formula. When scottr used the term thin & crispy american style this is the type that comes to mind. The x factor that sets it apart is the TF of .081 which may be a bit higher than a cracker style crust.                 Chiguy

[DNA Dan]

Making a dough circle for a standard pizza
-- Take the dough out of the refrigerator.
-- Spread a decent amount of flour over the counter so the dough doesn't stick.
-- Set the dough on the counter and flatten it out a bit, trying to keep a generally rectangular shape.
-- Spread a little flour over the top of the dough.
–  Dust the rolling pin with flour.
–  Roll the dough to a thickness of about 1.5”.
–  Smooth the dough out with hands, trying to make a fairly smooth rectangular slab, free of pockets and bulges.
-- Spread some more flour over top of the dough.
-- Put some more flour on the rolling pin.
–  Roll the dough out to a thickness of about 3/4 “.
-- Smooth the dough with the hands, getting rid of any pockets/cracks/bulges and maintaining the rectangular shape.
-- Spread lots of flour evenly over the top of the dough and then wipe away excess flour.
-- Fold the dough along its length - from the right side (facing the dough) to the center.
-- Spread lots of flour evenly over the top of the folded portion, then wipe away excess flour.
-- Fold the dough again - bringing the unfolded 1/3 portion over the top of the folded 2/3 portion.
-- Spread a light, even coat of flour over the top of the length of dough.
-- Flatten out the length of dough a bit, starting from the center and working out toward the ends.
-- Flip the length of dough over and spread a light, even coat of flour on the bottom side, then flip the dough back over.
-- Make sure the length of dough is free of cracks, pockets and bulges.
-- Roll the dough to 1.5”, and then to 3/4”.
-- Put some more flour on the rolling pin, and roll the dough out, in succession, to about 3/8”, 3/16”, and 1/8”, with the objective of creating a sheet of dough that is about 18” x 18”.
-- Dock the sheet using a 5”docker.
-- We now have a sheet with holes in it that almost go all the way through.
-- Cut a 16” round out of the docked sheet of dough, using a 16” disk (or screen) as a guide. There should be about 2” to spare (scrap).

I have not tried the above set of instructions so it is possible that some modification and free-lancing may be necessary to get the desired final size of the sheet from which the 16” skin is to be cut. If the exercise is properly executed, based on the 16” skin size and the 0.081 thickness factor, the weight of the 16” skin should be around 20.7 oz., as previously noted.

Peter

Peter,

Did you transcribe the sheeting details given by thatoneguy? or did you cut and past this? Re-reading the original post from thatoneguy on page 1 of this thread, the sheeting instructions are a little different for a thin crust sheet.

In summary, all the "flour this surface" aside, the method is basically:
1) sheet to ~3/4" then fold in thirds
2) sheet to ~3/4" then fold into "Z" shape
3) sheet to ~3/8" then fold into "Z" shape
4) sheet to ~1/8" then die cut pizza shape

In your version you have 2 times folding it into thirds, with no mention of the "Z" fold. Do you think the shape of the fold matters? The only reason I mention this is because each time the dough is folded, it's floured with the excess being wiped off. Before the Z-fold, it states to flour both sides of the dough. So basically after this fold, TWO floured surfaces are put together. This means that even though the excess was wiped away, you're really using a lot more flour than if you just floured one side, then folded into thirds.

Also, after folding, is the stack fed through in the same direciton as the fold? Or is it rotated 90 degrees so the next fold is perpendicular to the previous fold?

After rereading the sheeting comments, I think I have a much better handle on this now. I will be sure to take lots on photos when I make the next experiment.

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

You are correct about the weight of the 16" skin itself. Thanks for spotting my error. I have corrected it in Reply 82.

I chose the 18" x 18" size only because ThatOneGuy mentioned that the sheet of dough from which skins were cut when he worked at RT was a couple inches wider than the skins themselves. I could have used a 16" x 16" square, which would have meant less scrap (4.45 oz.), but until someone actually followed the modified procedure I set forth in Reply 82, I opted to provide a bit more breathing room by using 18" x 18". With experience, I would think that something smaller than 18” x 18” might work. At the time of my earlier post, I was thinking something along the lines of 16” x 17” or even 16.5” x 16.5”.

Since I am not a good one to comment on the RT pizzas, I will defer to those who have eaten them to describe what they are like.

Peter