Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One

[Randy]

Got it, thanks.
Randy

[DNA Dan]

You are correct, I was referring to the use of the pasta roller as a sheeter. I just love that creativity!

I am anticipating getting a sheet metal roller. You know the kind with a 18" or larger set of rollers that is used to add curvature to flat sheet metal. This would basically be a larger version of a pasta roller that you would crank by hand as well. I haven't found one that meets the specs I am interested in, however they can be found cheaper than a $2000 sheeter.

Lydia that pie looks great. I will have to see if I can reproduce it. Excellent work on the First Street brand sleuthing. Which cheeses are you using from them? And what is that magic ratio again?

[Randy]

I keep trying to avoid getting into another pizza type but from the pictures, it sure  looks tasty.  I never even heard of a R/T pizza until y'all started this thread.  Until they come on this side of the Mississippi I will have to wait until y'all perfect this one.

Randy

[Lydia]

Dan

My smart & Final/cash N Carry are having some trouble getting products in. The manager told me why, but I can't recall right now. So I've had the whole milk mozz (new last year), monetery jack but never at the same time. Today they had the provelone, so I'll give it a go.

So far I really like a 50/50 jack/mozz. the texture's right, very good flavor.

Pretty sure the pizza in the photo is mozz only.

Long story short, "I'm workin' on it."

Umm. magic ratio is.....80% Whole Milk Mozzarella cheese, 10% Aged Cheddar and 10% Provolone.

[DNA Dan]

Taking the poor man sheeter to the next level . ..  Try searching the internet for a "slip roll". This is a simple metal bi- or tri- roller pinch device used for curving flat sheet metal.  This one is very tempting...

http://cgi.ebay.com/30-Sheet-Metal-Slip-rolls-metal-working_W0QQitemZ190144883213QQihZ009QQcategoryZ633QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you have a mill and a lathe you can also build one for less..

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rolls/rolls.html

Does anyone here think that rolling a 20" or greater width pie manually in one of these would work? I can't see why not, you just have to have someone consistent on the crank. Thickness adjustment is all there. As thin as your hand can crank!

[jaykat77]

Hi guys! I'm new to this, but I wanted to share my girlfriends rendition of Round Table's Garlic Chicken Pizza.

Ingredients:

Dough -
1 1/2 tsp. of active dry yeast
1 tsp. of sugar
3/4 cups of warm milk (about 105 degrees, F)
2 cups, plus three Tbs. of bread or high gluten flour
1 1/4 tsp. kosher salt
2 1/2 Tbs. of Crisco shortening (not oil)
Olive Oil (for greasing)

Sauce - (simple and quick)
Classico garlic cheese alfredo

Cheese - (mix)
mozzarella
cheddar
Provolone

Topping - (optional)
Grilled Chicken
Roasted Garlic Cloves
Thinly sliced red onion (cooked or grilled)


Directions:

In a small bowl, whisk together the yeast and warm milk and let stand until foamy (about 3-5 minutes). Meanwhile in a mixing bowl combine the flour, salt, sugar and mix together. Then cut the Crisco into the flour mixture with a pastry blender (for those of you that don't know what a pastry blender is, you can find pictures of it on the internet and it's easily obtained) until well incorporated (or looks like fine meal). Attach the mixing bowl to the mixer, use a dough hook and turn the mixer on low. While the motor is running slowly pour 1/4 of the yeast/milk mixture into the mixing bowl. Let the mixture incorporate (about 30 seconds) and then added another 1/4 of the mixture and repeat. Continue to run the mixer, the dough should form into a ball and attach itself onto the dough hook. Let the mixer continue to need the dough for another five minutes. In the meantime, lightly coat a large bowl with olive oil. Remove the dough from the mixer and need briefly by hand. Then form the dough back into a ball and place into the greased bowl. Then cover the bowl with plastic wrap and place in the fridge over night.

1 hour and 15 minutes before cooking, take the dough out of the fridge. At this point you can use all of the dough or separate it into two smaller balls. Place a pizza stone in the oven and turn the temperature up to 500 degrees (let it heat for 20 minutes before placing the pizza in the oven). After one hour take the dough ball and place onto a floured surface. Use a rolling pin to roll out the dough to an 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch thick, you will need to apply a lot of pressure here...I use my palms to slowly press out the dough with the rolling pin. Place the dough on a counter (warm place if you have it) and let rise for about 15 minutes (or doubled in bulk). Then lightly cover (or whatever you like) the pizza with the garlic cheese alfredo sauce, then top with your cheese, roasted garlic, chicken and onion. Place into the oven and cook for about 8-10 (you might want to check the pizza after 7 minutes to make sure that it isn't burning. Then pull the pizza out of the oven and enjoy.

While this recipe isn't exact, I find the flavor to be VERY close....but tell me what you think.

[dland]

I've been working on the RT sauce, it's actually quite complex.

RT site states 11 herbs and spices.
From peter in a previous post:
I have identified nearly half of them with considerable confidence but still have a few that are giving me some trouble.

I also do not have amounts fine tuned.
brand used are McCormick, both consummer gourmet and food service varieties
keep in mind that brand storage and age will affect the outcome.

If anyone cares join in on the project, it is most helpful to have a cold, room temp and slightly heated samples. Most of these spices have varying characteristics: some need to mellow, some need heat to reach full potency, and some flavors are minimized when cold which assists in identifying some of the background flavors such as fennel.

Confident list:
Mexican oregano
Malabar black pepper
ground fennel
cumin
granulated garlic
salt (technically not an herb or spice)

Still working on these:
sweetener (technically not an herb or spice) (looking for a more common substitute or equivalent level sweetness for dextrose, dextrose is less sweet than granulated sugar.)
ground chili (type(s) not yet identified) pasilla is completely ruled out. New Mexico and California (both red Anaheim chili's with similar yet distinct flavor characteristics) as good candidates.
cayenne
paprika (type not yet identified)
cardmom (cardmon) is a candidate but it's a bit pricey. Could be justification for the higher priced pizzas.

I have been trying various tomato products. so far Escalon’s Cristoforo pizza sauce is top of the list because it has the appropriate bitter edge (cook time, acidity and amount of peel in product) and it the correct consistency (not too smooth and not too coarse).

Oscar Meyer pepperoni is the closest consummer brand I have found to RT pepperoni.

I'm very interested in getting a good working version of this sauce too. You posted this a few months ago, did you make much progress? I would think in addition to the herbs you listed, some basil and parsley must be in there somewhere.

Have you seen this post?

This won't relay the important "secrets" for Round Table Pizza
sauce, but about 20 years ago I worked at Round Table in
Palo Alto, CA.   We would make the sauce using 6 #10 cans of
Heinz tomato paste.   Then we'd fill the 6 #10 cans with water
and add that to the mixing bucket.    Then there was a packet
of seasoning (man how I wish I had one of those packets
today) you'd add it and mix.   That was it.

It's been a while since I had any RT (I'll make sure to when I go back to CA for Xmas next month) but as I recall it's fairly zesty. I've never really thought of it as hot necessarily, but everyone seems pretty confident that there is some chili or cayenne in there so I'll buy it. Maybe I can convince my brother to start working there and operate as a mole.

Dave

[Lydia]

Hi Dave and welcome to the forum!

I typically use basil in my pizza sauce recipes but I really don't detect any basil in the RT samples. I tried parsley and it really didn't add anything to the sauce. But I haven't been able to rule it out either.

The chili powders can be seen and tasted. Many moons ago the RT I frequented had a manager that swore that he did something to make the sauce just right. Well I believe he used to double or triple the amount of spices. Back then the heat and chili powder was even more obvious.

Some of the heat is from the black and white pepper but not all of it. It still needs the cayenne to fullfill a flavor in the sauce.

I have been using Grandma's brand "zesty" chili powder. I've heard that this brand is next to impossible to find outisde of California. I highly recommend searching out this product during your visit. It is made by Williams for Grandma's spanish pepper Co. Gebhardt chili powder can't compare to Grandma's original or Zesty versions. It's obvious just from the aroma when opening the jar.

There are some dominate herb and spices that are making it diffucult to pick out some the the underlying flavors.

There is something kinda of lemony and pine like. The malabar pepper makes up part of that aroma. But it is only part of it. I've tried most of the herbs that are known for lemon or pine like flavors and/or aromas and haven't pegged it yet. Lemon juice and citric acid didn't do the trick either.

The only ingredient I have have been considering for the confident list below, is the addition of white pepper.

I've seen the post about the Hunt's. I don't doubt that Hunt's IS the brand RT uses (or used to use). It's manufactured here, not far from the original Round Table. But What I don't know is which Hunt's product. They now have many varieties including the Bella Orto line and I believe this line came about much later than the original RT. It would probably take a year to sample them all. Bella Orto and Angela Mia are the only Hunts products I can get.

If I wasn't totally satisfied with the Cristoforo's, I would be trying to access the other Hunts products.

Hunt's tomato paste found in the typical grocery store isn't even up for discussion. I started there many many years ago and will never go back.

I'm still working on amounts, but it's a bit difficult without the missing ingredients.

Lydia

[dland]

Lydia,

Thanks for all the info.

I made a first run at the sauce tonight with decent results. I used 50/50 Contadina tomato paste and water per chilis4me's instructions. I added garlic powder, oregano, basil, parsley, cayenne, paprika, fennel, cumin, coriander, salt, and black pepper. It definitely looked like RT sauce, thick and a nice deep red. The taste wasn't quite right (I think I over cumined), but not bad for a first try. It has been a few years since I've had RT but I ate it so much as a kid I think the taste is pretty well burned into my brain.

I do a pretty good amount of cooking, but I must admit I don't seem to have a very discerning palate. I seriously doubt I could smell or taste RT sauce and "detect" that it did or didn't contain basil or just about anything besides tomatoes and some mystery spices. So, if you're interested in posting the sauce recipe you consider the most accurate, I would be interested in making it and very grateful to have it. I'm sure it would be a lot closer than anything I could come up with.

My main point in referencing chilis4me's post about the sauce was that RT just added spices to tomato paste and water. You say that you tried using Hunts tomato paste and didn't like it. Why is that? Also, what is Cristoforo's? I found a few references to what seems to be a pre-made pizza sauce called Cristoforo Columbo's. Is that what you are referring to?

By the way, I found the following on a somewhat obscure website regarding Grandma's Zesty chili power:

We contacted the Lenexa, KS Chamber of Commerce and received back this very nice note:
Hi Donald,
Grandma's Spanish Pepper Company is owned by a company here in Lenexa by the name of Williams Foods. Their telephone number is 913-888-4343. Please call them and they will be happy to help you.

Oh yeah, tomorrow I'll be making the "cheater's recipe" you posted on 8/24/2007. It looked really good (with some sweet pizza bubbles). The dough is fermenting in my fridge right now. I'm very excited to see how it comes out!

Best regards,
Dave

[DNA Dan]

Still looking for some Cristoforo...    I may have to get on the take Lydia.

Where are you buying the Harina Preparada? I have gone to 4 different grocery stores and all I can find is the Masa. It's been quite frustrating.

Also are you interested in a homemade manual slip roll? I have access to a machine shop and I am on the verge of making my own 18" sheeter. I am shooting to make it under $100. Good quality metal is quite expensive in todays market.

[Lydia]

Dave

I'm a fan of contadina tomato sauce but not so much of the tomato paste. The new organic paste is an improvement but still not good enough. The typical grocery store tomato pastes are overprocessed/overcooked to reduce the tomatoes to a paste.  This makes them bitter and lacking in tomato flavor. Beyond that no matter what I added to those tomato paste they never tasted "right". I finally stumbled onto Hunt's Angela Mia Pizza sauce. This is a lightly seasoned food service product and only comes in #10 cans. I couldn't believe how much of a difference it really made. I finally believed that I could approximate a decent RT sauce. That was more than 15 years ago.

I found a few references to what seems to be a pre-made pizza sauce called Cristoforo Columbo's. Is that what you are referring to?

Yes this is "the" product. It is an Escalon product and is also lightly seasoned, but not enough to matter. It is mostly a "base". Second choice is Escalons Bella Rossa concentrated crushed tomatoes.

Mexican oregano is the key herb, Mediterrean oregano is an acceptable substite.
Corriander is one of the spices I have up for consideration.

The chili pwders is key to developing the deep redish brown hue.



The following are some of my notes and a recipe in progress.

Round Table sauce
Our zesty red sauce is made from scratch with eleven herbs and spices
 
A few months ago I had another one of those fortunate/unfortunate Round Table experiences. The sauce wasn’t up to par, I was assaulted with an intense herbal flavor. I peeled back the cheese and toppings to find out what the culprit was. The sauce was littered with what I am quite sure of, was Mexican oregano. I have tried using others oreganos and have since become convinced that RT uses the Mexican version. I also found no difference between using McCormick’s expensive version verses using those found in cellophane bags in the Mexican spices. I also found the Mediterranean oregano an acceptable replacement.

I chose Escalon’s Cristoforo pizza sauce because it has the appropriate bitter edge and the correct consistency.

28 oz. Cristoforo Columbo Pizza Sauce (Escalon)
1 tsp. McCormick Mexican Oregano Leaves
1 tsp. Granulated cane sugar
1 tsp. Fine sweet basil
1 tsp. Zesty Style Chili powder Grandma’s brand*
¼ tsp. granulated garlic
¼ tsp. ground black pepper (shaker grind, table grind and others are too coarse)
¼ tsp. Cayenne
1/8 tsp. onion powder
1/8 tsp. fine popcorn salt*

• Add water to desired consistency. I find that 1/8 to ¼ cup water to be almost right. It should be fairly thick.
  Stir thoroughly to distribute seasonings.
  May be used immediately.
  Use approx. 3-4 T rounded for a 15 inch pizza, 1/8 to ¼ cup sauce for a 14-15 inch pizza

.

Store leftover sauce covered in refrigerator.
Add water to sauce that has been stored in the refrigerator to compensate for evaporation.
Note: After ripening in the fridge:Needs a bit more sugar and probably chili powder and onion powder.

The Mexican oregano is a dominant flavor in this sauce.

*Grandmas brand chili powder does not contain salt, is strong on cumin and contains garlic. Keep this is mind when using other chili powders.
The only difference that I can find between Grandma original chili powder and the zesty version is that the Zesty contains Red pepper flakes, just like the pizza topping.

Popcorn salt distributes more evenly throught the sauce vs. table salt.

Gralic powder and Granulated garlic are not the same. if using garlic powder reduce amounts.

This is another thing that i do. I try to set up a base seasoning mix Then make a list of assumptions.

Seasoning Mix:
2-tsp salt
1-tsp cayenne
1-tsp ground coriander
1-tsp ground fennel seeds
1-tsp garlic powder
1-tsp onion powder
1-tsp turmeric
1/2-tsp ground cumin
1/2-tsp black pepper
1/2-tsp white pepper

Assumptions:
1 tablespoon hot Hungarian paprika
1 - 2 teaspoons or more cayenne pepper OR 1 teaspoon or more crushed red pepper flakes
3 tablespoons sweet paprika

Hope this helps.

[Lydia]

Dan

The last I picked-up was at Smart & Final in Santa Clara on umm... I think it was El camino.

I noticed that some places that were carrying it, aren't right now. I'm assuming it's because of the formula change. They removed the shortening  I guess well find out how important the shortening really is.

I also am finding that there is a bit of a trick to handling the dough to get great bubbles. You have to fold it and avoid rolling the edges. Pretty vague...but at the moment I cant think of how to explain it better.

Keep me posted on your manual sheeter project!

[dland]

Still looking for some Cristoforo...    I may have to get on the take Lydia.

Where are you buying the Harina Preparada? I have gone to 4 different grocery stores and all I can find is the Masa. It's been quite frustrating.

Also are you interested in a homemade manual slip roll? I have access to a machine shop and I am on the verge of making my own 18" sheeter. I am shooting to make it under $100. Good quality metal is quite expensive in todays market.

I bought the harina preparada at my local grocery store. I couldn't find the Quaker brand that Lydia mentioned but I got a local made one that has all the same ingredients, though I don't know if the proportions are right. I would guess that Lydia and I are finding it at the store because we both live relatively close to the border (CA and TX). You can buy the Quaker one online, though you're probably going to pay 3 or 4 times what it's worth after markup and shipping (still that's only $10 vs. $2.50).

I find it confounding that nobody makes a reasonably priced hand-cranked dough/pasta roller that's wider than 6". The closest I've found in the Imperia R220 which only makes dough 8.5" wide and is an insane $600. Forget the big, professional, electric ones; those start at $2000.

I've been looking at slip rolls lately. I've found some in the $100-$200 price range, which isn't too bad, but I'm not sure they will let you set the rollers far enough apart. I think you'd need for it to go at least 1/2" apart when you're first starting to roll the dough. Obviously you could never roll a piece of metal that thick so I don't see why slip rolls would allow for a setting that wide (not that I've ever even seen one, much less used one).

I'd be very interested to see your design.

Dave

[Lydia]

If we get really desperate we can order it online here:
http://www.c-els.com/sfCatalog.asp?sn=E060520020030039&pchid=26162

[dland]

Lydia,

Thank you very much for the sauce recipe. I will give it a shot.

So I made my first RT knockoff tonight per your recipe. I must say I was a little disappointed (with myself, not your recipe). The sauce was better than last night's attempt but still not super close (I'll use your recipe next time). It tasted pretty good while I was making it but on the cooked pizza it came off a little more like generic, uninspired pizza sauce. It looked a little too light colored and thin on the pizza too. I'll use more chili powder next time. I may not have put enough on the pizza either.

Somewhat more disappointing was the crust. No bubbles whatsoever. The crust came out very flat. The flavor was pretty decent, and it had a little chew and crispiness but it wasn't soft and airy inside. It was more dense and bready.  I used almost all the same ingredients. The major difference with regard to the dough was the use of a different harina preparada. The one I used had most of the same ingredients in the same or close to the same order as the Quaker brand you used, but there were some differences. Mine doesn't have corn syrup solids, dextrose, or calcium carbonate like Quaker's. Also mine has less than 2% of whey and L-cysteine whereas Quaker's has these and says nothing about 2% or less (I assume this means it has more).

I think the problem may have been the way I let it (or didn't let it) rise. Lydia, when you made yours did you refrigerate the dough right after you made it or did you let it rise at room temp for a while? Also, did you roll it then refrigerate in ready-to-top disk form or did you roll it just before baking? I made the dough, gathered it into a ball, then refrigerated it right away (for about 24 hours). Then I rolled it with a pin just before baking it. I did not dock it because, by your photos, it appears that you did not.

I noticed that you said you have to roll it just to the edge but not roll the edge. I found this hard to do becuase the pin is about as wide as the pizza. From you previous post it sounds like you are folding the dough in half to make a "D" shape then rolling everything but the rounded edge of the "D". Can you confirm that? I wonder if they make a special narrower rolling pin. I think that would work fairly well for avoiding the edges of the crust.

Anyway, it was still fun and the pizza was pretty decent. I'll give it another go this weekend.

Dave

[Lydia]

Bummer! It's all about the bubbles, right?

It was more dense and bready.

Dense and bready dosen't sound right at all. Hmmm. I haven't had that issue come up with this formula. Could be the brand.

I let the dough set at room temp. for at least 4 hours and then I either use it at that point or throw it in the fridge for use next day (24 hrs). Removing from fridge 1 hr. before rolling.

I am not docking, layering/sheeting at this point and time. The folding was with a different formula.

I'm using a small 5 inch roller to focus on the center of the dough. It helps move the bubles to the edge. I know pampered Chef sells them, and have seen them in a few specialty shops. SOmetimes they have 2 different sized rollers on each end of the handle. (If you haven't seen one, I know that it can sound weird.)

The amounts of ingredients in the first sauce recipe are a bit low and it's also missing the ground white pepper, ground fennel and cumin. Remember this is still a work in progress, it's not totally there yet.

Also remember to leave a good 1 1/2 - 2 inch border. The toppings tend to weigh-down the bubbles.
If you add enough cheese it will spread as it melts and still allows the bubbles to form. Don't ask how much is enough, this is one of those things I've learned to eye-ball and every brand spreads differently.

Even very slight over-mixing seems to affect the bubbles. Still not totally sure about it though.
Don't get too frustrated yet. Somehow my son manages to kill the bubbles, and I haven't quite figured out exactly what he's doing to cause it. Hopefully, I'll catch whatever it is.

Hope this helps.

[DNA Dan]

Even very slight over-mixing seems to affect the bubbles.

You may want to read the thread in the "cracker style" forum. Peter and others have shown that a medium/low hydration dough undermixed gives the best chance of producing bubbles without the use of a sheeter or laminating the skin. If you thoroughly mix the dough you are developing the structure of the gluten, and that in turn will give you a more tightly dense crust.

[Lydia]

I made my dough last night and realized that I have been doing a few things "subconsciously" that needs to be mentioned.

Half-way through the countertop rise I divide the dough (if making 2 pizzas) and turn the dough twice to form each into a ball. This helps the dough become more homogenous and improves the rise volumne.

Also when rolling out the dough, I roll the dough ball in the bench flour then roll the dough out to size, flip it over and bring in four imaginary corners to the center (makes something like a diamond shape but I try to keep it as round as possible), flip it over and press it into a round disc. I don't believe I'm wiping off the bench flour before folding, but I'll need to make the dough again to be for sure. Then proceed rolling the skin to full size. So, I guess what I'm doing is some altered form of sheeting and layering.

If the dough is rolled too thick it can reduce bubble volumne and the bottom crust usually dosen't crisp well and stays pliable. Sometimes longer bake times won't remedy it either.

[dland]

Well, there were clearly some big differences in the way I fermented my dough. I gave it no room temp time and didn't let it warm back up before baking. I'll try doing those and hopefully that will result in a more RT like crust. And after having eaten the rest of the first pizza, I can see now that there were in fact a number of very shallow bubbles here and there.

I'm going to buy the Pampered Chef double roller, but in the mean time I might try the folding-in-half technique even though you meant that for something else.

[dland]

I made my dough last night and realized that I have been doing a few things "subconsciously" that needs to be mentioned.

Half-way through the countertop rise I divide the dough (if making 2 pizzas) and turn the dough twice to form each into a ball. This helps the dough become more homogenous and improves the rise volumne.

Interesting. I had already been working with two separate dough balls (one for each pizza) because my somewhat tiny mixer can't handle the whole recipe at once.

Also when rolling out the dough, I roll the dough ball in the bench flour then roll the dough out to size, flip it over and bring in four imaginary corners to the center (makes something like a diamond shape but I try to keep it as round as possible), flip it over and press it into a round disc. I don't believe I'm wiping off the bench flour before folding, but I'll need to make the dough again to be for sure. Then proceed rolling the skin to full size. So, I guess what I'm doing is some altered form of sheeting and layering.

Not sure what you mean by "press it into a round disc". You mean you roll the diamond back out into a circle?