Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One

[dland]

scott,

There is nothing more satisfying to a pizza maker than getting results that are much better than anticipated. I'd love to see some photos if you can manage that sometime.

Interestingly, your final dough formulation after increasing the amounts of salt, shortening, and sugar to 10 g. each still abides by the pecking order of the ingredients used in the RT pizza flour blend. And the baker's percents of the salt, shortening, and sugar are all within normal ranges. If you had used the nonfat dry milk, the total weight would have come to 1502.96 g. (twice 751.48 g. for two pizzas). Your actual dough weight should have been just a bit less because of the omission of the nonfat dry milk. As a point of clarification, did you make 16" pizzas, as called for in the original dough formulation? I don't recall that your pizza stone was large enough for 16" pizzas.

I played around with my spreadsheet and if my calculations are correct I get the following as the basic dough formulation (for one 16" pizza plus a bit of scrap) you ended up with after using the increased amounts of salt, shortening, and sugar (I left in the nonfat dry milk):

100%, Flour (King Harvest), 481.08 g., 16.97 oz., 1.06 lb.
48.3%, Water, 232.36 g., 8.20 oz., 0.51 lb.
2.08%, Salt, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 1 3/4 t.
2.08%, Shortening (Crisco), 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
2.08%, Sugar, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
1.25%, Nonfat dry milk (Carnation), 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 4 1/8 t. (a bit more than 1 5/8 t. if baker's grade)
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 1.92 g., 0.068 oz., a bit more than 5/8 t
Total dough weight = 751.41 g. (26.50 oz.)

Peter

Peter,

I plan on making the dough recipe you have listed in reply #111, but I have a few questions for you first.

1. What do you recommend for the fermentation process? In your previous posts you noted that the dough came out better when it was fermented at room temperature rather than fermented within the refrigerator. I've also read that some people feel that RT's crust tastes like it's been cold fermented so I'm assuming that both room temperature and refrigerator fermentation are required. Do you have a recommendation on durations?

2. What kind of salt are you using in this recipe? I would assume 1 5/8 teaspoons of a fine grain salt is actually more salt than the same volume of a coarser salt. I've been using fine grained sea salt.

Thanks,
Dave

[elsegundo]

Here are the directions from the Round Table premix bag:

1. Put 11 lbs 80-85 degree water into mixing bowl
2. empty contents of bag into mixer.  Bag contents: enriched bleached wheat flour, salt, partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil, sugar, non-fat dry milk, yeast  Bag weighs 24.25 pounds

3. Mix on speed #1 for 6 1/2 minutes
4. Dough coming out of mixer should be between 80-85 degrees
5. Remove from bowl, put into food bags, date, and place in cooler.

Hope this helps,

from El Segundo

[PizzaBrasil]

Dland:

This last week end, I did a pizza party in my place. As usual ,there were more that 30 persons there.
Pizzas and descriptions will be commented in another thread later.
I am becoming a real fan for one day pre-fermented pizza dough. Highly recommend you to use it. A real winner. Smooth dough, explosive cornicione, delicious taste.
Even if I am talking about VPN / NY style, I bet for one day to your dough too.

Luis

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I plan on making the dough recipe you have listed in reply #111, but I have a few questions for you first.

1. What do you recommend for the fermentation process? In your previous posts you noted that the dough came out better when it was fermented at room temperature rather than fermented within the refrigerator. I've also read that some people feel that RT's crust tastes like it's been cold fermented so I'm assuming that both room temperature and refrigerator fermentation are required. Do you have a recommendation on durations?

2. What kind of salt are you using in this recipe? I would assume 1 5/8 teaspoons of a fine grain salt is actually more salt than the same volume of a coarser salt. I've been using fine grained sea salt.

Dave,

If your objective is to replicate the RT dough and pizza, which I assume it is, then I would try to follow the regimen previously described by ThatOneGuy.  That is, I would make the dough, put it into the refrigerator for 8-12 hours, but no longer than 2 days, and then form the skin(s), which can then go back into the refrigerator until ready to use, but be used the same day. I would form the skins along the lines originally described by ThatOneGuy and as I transformed the sequence into a single dough ball format at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883. Since you will be using a rolling pin, I would undermix the dough since the rolling pin will contribute to the dough development. To make it easier to roll out the dough using a rolling pin, I would be inclined to form the dough (whether for a single dough piece or in bulk if you are making more than one skin) into the shape of a long rectangular log about 2” high, and put that log into a suitably shaped storage container to go into the refrigerator. That way, you won’t overwork the dough trying to get it into a rectangular shape to roll out when you remove it from the refrigerator.

As far as salt is concerned, it doesn’t matter whether you are using ordinary table salt or sea salt. The dough calculating tools use the same conversion data for converting from weight to volume measurements. I personally prefer sea salt and that is what I normally use for all my doughs unless I am trying a new recipe for the first time that calls for ordinary table salt.

If you can tell me what size pizza you would like to make, and what ingredients you will be using (for example, will you be using Carnation’s dry milk powder or baker’s grade?), maybe I can help you with the dough formulation. At the time I posted the various iterations of the RT clone dough, I was using a spreadsheet to come up with all the required quantities of ingredients. With the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, which was designed quite a bit later, we now have greater flexibility and perhaps greater accuracy. For example, I would be inclined to make enough dough for a rectangular sheet from which the skin can be easily cut while leaving a modest amount of scrap. Hopefully, the skin will be of the correct weight and thickness factor. 

One point that I would like to make is that a possible disconnect between a pizza prepared at an RT operation and one prepared at home as a clone is the protocol used to bake the pizzas. For example, ThatOneGuy originally said that it took 2-4 minutes to bake a standard RT pizza (4 minutes normally but 2 minutes at slam time). There is no way that I can do that in my oven, whether I am using a screen, a disk, a pizza stone, a cutter pan, or whatever. It will take me about 4 minutes in my home oven just to pre-bake a skin. So, I think that measures that we have not previously considered, or adequately considered, will have to be taken to convert an RT clone made in the home to approach a typical RT pizza as prepared by an RT operation.

Examples of what I have in mind have been given by elsegundo (with his particular pasta roller method), by member fazzari (with the method he described in Reply 221 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50196.html#msg50196), or by member BTB (with the method he described at Reply 234 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50365.html#msg50365).  I am also thinking that the dough-warming method as described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html might have some merit. I haven’t tried that method with a medium-hydration dough (which is how I characterize the RT clone dough) but my recollection is that the RT clone doughs I made were on the stiff side. If the dough warming method has merit with the RT clone, it might be possible to eliminate the rolling steps altogether, or at least make them easier to do, although pre-baking the skin may still be necessary. Then, the remaining issue would be how to bake the pizzas, that is, using a disk, stone, cutter pan, etc.

I’d like to explore a few possibilities along the above lines, possibly when I have finished my series of experiments with the cracker style. Maybe DNADan has already tried some of the possibilities noted above and has some comments or guidance to offer.

Peter

[Lydia]

Lydia, I finally got some Harina Preparada online. Cost me ~$8 to ship about $8 worth of flour. I am just dying to try this out, so I didn't bother with the cost involved.

Have you made any adjustments to the recipe as you have laid out previously? I think I will try and sheet some ala "elsegundo" method as well.

Dan I haven't made any changes to the formula "yet" but I'm considering some slight changes. I'd like to make more progress toward developing the internal structure that is unique to RT. I'm leaning more toward the idea that the broken texture is caused by the use of "old scrap" to form the center sheet of dough. Fresh scrap didn't have much of an affect internally. 

Also a repost of notes for the Cheater's formula. Be sure to post how things go with the home sheeting method.

I made my dough last night and realized that I have been doing a few things "subconsciously" that needs to be mentioned.

Half-way through the countertop rise I divide the dough (if making 2 pizzas) and turn the dough twice to form each into a ball. This helps the dough become more homogenous and improves the rise volumne.

Also when rolling out the dough, I roll the dough ball in the bench flour then roll the dough out to size, flip it over and bring in four imaginary corners to the center (makes something like a diamond shape but I try to keep it as round as possible), flip it over and press it into a round disc. I don't believe I'm wiping off the bench flour before folding, but I'll need to make the dough again to be for sure. Then proceed rolling the skin to full size. So, I guess what I'm doing is some altered form of sheeting and layering.

If the dough is rolled too thick it can reduce bubble volumne and the bottom crust usually dosen't crisp well and stays pliable. Sometimes longer bake times won't remedy it either.

[dland]

Dave,

If your objective is to replicate the RT dough and pizza, which I assume it is, then I would try to follow the regimen previously described by ThatOneGuy.  That is, I would make the dough, put it into the refrigerator for 8-12 hours, but no longer than 2 days, and then form the skin(s), which can then go back into the refrigerator until ready to use, but be used the same day. I would form the skins along the lines originally described by ThatOneGuy and as I transformed the sequence into a single dough ball format at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883. Since you will be using a rolling pin, I would undermix the dough since the rolling pin will contribute to the dough development. To make it easier to roll out the dough using a rolling pin, I would be inclined to form the dough (whether for a single dough piece or in bulk if you are making more than one skin) into the shape of a long rectangular log about 2” high, and put that log into a suitably shaped storage container to go into the refrigerator. That way, you won’t overwork the dough trying to get it into a rectangular shape to roll out when you remove it from the refrigerator.

As far as salt is concerned, it doesn’t matter whether you are using ordinary table salt or sea salt. The dough calculating tools use the same conversion data for converting from weight to volume measurements. I personally prefer sea salt and that is what I normally use for all my doughs unless I am trying a new recipe for the first time that calls for ordinary table salt.

If you can tell me what size pizza you would like to make, and what ingredients you will be using (for example, will you be using Carnation’s dry milk powder or baker’s grade?), maybe I can help you with the dough formulation. At the time I posted the various iterations of the RT clone dough, I was using a spreadsheet to come up with all the required quantities of ingredients. With the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, which was designed quite a bit later, we now have greater flexibility and perhaps greater accuracy. For example, I would be inclined to make enough dough for a rectangular sheet from which the skin can be easily cut while leaving a modest amount of scrap. Hopefully, the skin will be of the correct weight and thickness factor. 

One point that I would like to make is that a possible disconnect between a pizza prepared at an RT operation and one prepared at home as a clone is the protocol used to bake the pizzas. For example, ThatOneGuy originally said that it took 2-4 minutes to bake a standard RT pizza (4 minutes normally but 2 minutes at slam time). There is no way that I can do that in my oven, whether I am using a screen, a disk, a pizza stone, a cutter pan, or whatever. It will take me about 4 minutes in my home oven just to pre-bake a skin. So, I think that measures that we have not previously considered, or adequately considered, will have to be taken to convert an RT clone made in the home to approach a typical RT pizza as prepared by an RT operation.

Examples of what I have in mind have been given by elsegundo (with his particular pasta roller method), by member fazzari (with the method he described in Reply 221 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50196.html#msg50196), or by member BTB (with the method he described at Reply 234 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50365.html#msg50365).  I am also thinking that the dough-warming method as described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html might have some merit. I haven’t tried that method with a medium-hydration dough (which is how I characterize the RT clone dough) but my recollection is that the RT clone doughs I made were on the stiff side. If the dough warming method has merit with the RT clone, it might be possible to eliminate the rolling steps altogether, or at least make them easier to do, although pre-baking the skin may still be necessary. Then, the remaining issue would be how to bake the pizzas, that is, using a disk, stone, cutter pan, etc.

I’d like to explore a few possibilities along the above lines, possibly when I have finished my series of experiments with the cracker style. Maybe DNADan has already tried some of the possibilities noted above and has some comments or guidance to offer.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the helpful reply. Here is the plan, feel free to comment:

I'm going to make two 16" pizzas using the recipe listed in reply #111 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg34088.html#msg34088). I will be following the formula exactly, down to the brand of ingredients. The Carnation dry milk will be scalded according to reply #20 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17795.html#msg17795). Since I'll be using a rolling pin, the dough will be under-mixed (just enough to combine the ingredients). The dough for the first one will be put into the refrigerator immediately after it's formed, where it will stay for about 20 hours. The dough for the second will be allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 70 F) for six hours then it will be refrigerated for about 14 hours. Both pizzas will be allowed to warm up at room temperature for 1 hour before cooking (this includes the rolling time).

The dough for both pizzas will be prepared according to reply #82 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883) since it follows ThatOneGuy's recommendations (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17492.html#msg17492). Both pizzas will be baked on a stone at 500 degrees for 6 to 8 minutes.

So essentially, the variable will be the room temperature fermentation time. We'll see who wins.

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

Your plan looks fine. As noted previously (see Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg47786.html#msg47786), it is not necessary to reconstitute the Carnation dry milk and scald and cool it before using based on the small percent of dry milk you will be using. However, if you want to do a more exact comparison with the prior efforts of others, then feel free to do so.

I ran the percents for the dough formulation you will be using through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and using a thickness factor of 0.081, I established that it would take a square sheet of about 18.09” by 18.09” to get the total dough weight of about 751.41 oz. So, that will be an inch to spare on each side of the 16” pizzas you plan to make. The output of the tool using the above inputs is as follows:

Flour (100%): Water (48.3%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (2.08%): Sugar (2.08%): Dry Non-Fat Milk (1.25%): Shortening (2.08%): Total (156.19%):

481.13 g  |  16.97 oz | 1.06 lbs 232.39 g  |  8.2 oz | 0.51 lbs 1.92 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 10.01 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 10.01 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp 6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 4.18 tsp | 1.39 tbsp 10.01 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.5 tsp | 0.83 tbsp 751.48 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.081

If you’d like, you can add a bowl residue compensation factor to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. For example, if you use 1.5% in the expanded dough calculating tool, you will get the following:

Flour (100%): Water (48.3%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (2.08%): Sugar (2.08%): Dry Non-Fat Milk (1.25%): Shortening (2.08%): Total (156.19%):

488.35 g  |  17.23 oz | 1.08 lbs 235.87 g  |  8.32 oz | 0.52 lbs 1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 10.16 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp 10.16 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.55 tsp | 0.85 tbsp 6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 4.25 tsp | 1.42 tbsp 10.16 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp 762.75 g | 26.9 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = 0.082215

If it turns out that your dough weigh ends up a bit too high, you can always trim it back to the amount indicated in the first table (751.48 g.).

Good luck. I look forward to your results, especially any problems you encounter and any suggestions for improvement.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Dave,

To me the biggest variables in this clone which are difficult to reproduce in the home environment are 1) The sheeter 2) The oven and 3) The sauce. In regard to #1, using a rolling pin will get you very little with respect to the texture you see in the restaurant. I have even tried rolling it out super duper thin, then just folding it and pressing the layers together. The problem with the rolling pin is that you just need to make too many passes to get it thin enough, whereas with a sheeter you can be thinned out in just a few passes. The constant back and fourth movement on the rolling pin just develops the gluten structure too much. You can get "better" results by using the warm dough ball method as others have done, but it's still not quite the same. Regarding #2, the pizza in the store is almost "fried" in the pan from the grease and heat from the oven. If you look at a single topping pizza, the toppings are virtually singed. This tells me that they are cooking from the top and the bottom simultaneously, perhaps even broiling the pizza. This has me perplexed somewhat because RT never used to use conveyor ovens. In the past they used a rotating stone type oven. Regarding #3, well I think Lydia has made the most progress here. I tend to focus on crust structure and texture before taking on the beast of cloning the sauce. In terms of taste, the sauce is probably the biggest contributor to your palette though.

I tried Lydia's cheater recipe but I wasn't faithful to the recipe. I did more of a merge between what Peter put forward but spiked the flour with Harina preparada mix. The results were just okay, nothing to write home about. I will try it again with the subconscious notes that Lydia added. The nice thing about her approach is she doesn't bother with the in-home sheeting dilemma. So you can get the bubbly crust without the pain of making the layers or owning a sheeter. Peter's recipe is pretty close in flavor to the real deal. This is somewhat qualitative because I dont' have a clone of the sauce, but it was my closest attempt yet. For that one the preparation was much more involved using the Elsegundo sheeting method.

Whatever you do, don't roll it too much of you will end up with a hockey puck.

[dland]

Peter,

Thanks for the helpful reply. Here is the plan, feel free to comment:

I'm going to make two 16" pizzas using the recipe listed in reply #111 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg34088.html#msg34088). I will be following the formula exactly, down to the brand of ingredients. The Carnation dry milk will be scalded according to reply #20 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17795.html#msg17795). Since I'll be using a rolling pin, the dough will be under-mixed (just enough to combine the ingredients). The dough for the first one will be put into the refrigerator immediately after it's formed, where it will stay for about 20 hours. The dough for the second will be allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 70 F) for six hours then it will be refrigerated for about 14 hours. Both pizzas will be allowed to warm up at room temperature for 1 hour before cooking (this includes the rolling time).

The dough for both pizzas will be prepared according to reply #82 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883) since it follows ThatOneGuy's recommendations (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17492.html#msg17492). Both pizzas will be baked on a stone at 500 degrees for 6 to 8 minutes.

So essentially, the variable will be the room temperature fermentation time. We'll see who wins.

Dave

Okay, so experiment over and here are the results:

The first pizza (I'll call it P1) was fermented totally in the refrigerator for 19 hours. I did not notice any significant rising in the dough during fermentation. The dough retained its mealy quality until I rolled it. And it was not easy to roll. Especially when I folded it back onto itself and re-rolled it. I was pushing down so hard on my rolling pin that I could hear and feel the metal bar inside grinding on the sleeve it sits in. It took a *lot* of rolling, but when I was done, it was generally smooth with a few areas on the surface that were still gritty. I did not dock the dough. It sat at room temperature for about 1 hour before being cooked.

P1 cooked in a little less than 6 minutes. There were small to medium sized bubbles. The bottom was very crisp and crackery. The inside did have some layering and bisquity qualities, though probably not as much as an RT pizza. The dough wasn't quite moist or chewy enough either. The flavor wasn't exactly right, though not way off. It was a little salty and bready tasting. In general, P1 was a fair approximation--maybe 75%.

The second pizza (P2) was fermented at room temperature for 6 hours then set in the fridge for another 13. This dough did not rise significantly either. In fact, it appeared exactly like P1's dough. It was also quite difficult to roll. I had a lot of trouble getting the dough to elongate as I rolled it. It seemed to want to only widen. In fact, after I had already performed the "tri-fold", I was forced to fold it again (this time in half) in order to get anything resembling a square.

P2 cooked in just under 6 minutes. This pizza had many large bubbles. P2 had similar layering to P1 but was softer and more airy. It was also a bit chewier and in general, closer to RT crust. The flavor was less salty but it had a definite yeasty smell to it. The bottom was similar to P1 in crispness but had another very interesting feature--blisters. There was pronounced blistering on the bottom of P2. There was even a little on the sides. This pizza was probably about 85%-90% of a RT pizza.

P2 was the definite winner. The crust had closer flavor, texture, and appearance of RT pizza, plus blisters. To be fair, I kind of screwed up the baking of P1 because I had inadvertently turned the oven off and didn't realize it until P1 was already on the stone. So I had to take it off the stone, wait for the oven and stone to heat back up (about 5 minutes), then bake it. It was only initially on the stone for maybe 30 seconds, but this could have adversely affected blistering (or any number of things I suppose).

So I guess the findings are that room temperature fermentation makes for a pizza closer to RT, provided my gaffe with P1 didn't alter it too much. I'd be very interested to see how the user of a sheeter would alter the quality of this recipe. I have a feeling it might just close the gap and get us very close to an RT clone.

The first two pics are P2 dough, the next three are P1, and the last three are P2.

Dave

[Pete-zza]

After conducting many experiments recently with thin-crust pizzas, from which I learned a lot about that style and the principles involved, I decided to take another stab at an RT clone. The area that I most wanted to explore with that clone was the dough-rolling problem. So, after giving that problem some thought, I decided to take one of the earlier RT clone recipes (the one at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883) and to modify it in two significant ways: to increase the hydration, and to use the “dough warming” method using a proofing box as described at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html. I elected to use the abovementioned recipe mainly because I wanted to keep the salt level at a value (1.75%) that I have found to be workable for my palate for most pizza styles. Since I had a baker’s grade dry milk powder on hand, I also used that in lieu of the Carnation’s dry milk powder I last used. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the dough formulation I ended up with was as follows:

Flour (100%): Water (52%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (1.75%): Sugar (1.5%): Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (1.25%): Shortening (1.75%): Total (158.65%):

371.46 g  |  13.1 oz | 0.82 lbs 193.16 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs 1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp 5.57 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.4 tsp | 0.47 tbsp 4.64 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp 6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.63 tsp | 0.54 tbsp 589.32 g | 20.79 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = 0.0812

Note: Harvest King flour used; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; 1.5% bowl residue compensation

As will be noted from the above formulation, the major change from the earlier formulation was in the hydration. I somewhat arbitrarily increased it from 48.3% to 52%. I wanted the change to be dramatic enough so that the changes would be pronounced and possibly point me in a better, or right, direction the next time. For purposes of using the tool, I had decided on a 14” pizza size and a thickness factor of 0.08. To get a 14” skin, I used the tool to specify the ingredients I would need to make a sheet of dough that was 16” by 16”. From that sheet, I would cut out a 14” skin, leaving about an inch on each side as scrap. I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% just to keep the numbers in line even though I knew I would end up with some scrap.

To prepare the dough, I put the formula water into the bowl of my KitchenAid stand mixer (with a C-hook), and I combined all of the dry ingredients in a separate bowl. The temperature of the water I used was about 100 degrees F, which I estimated would produce a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F, as specified on the bag of pizza mix that elsegundo showed in a post early on in this thread. I gradually added the dry ingredients to the mixer bowl and mixed them using the C-hook at the stir speed. I used a long, thin plastic spatula to help move the ingredients into the path of the dough hook. After about a minute or two, I added the shortening (Crisco) and incorporated that into the rest of the mix. I then kneaded the dough, at speeds 1 and 2, for about 5 minutes. Twice during the knead period, I found it necessary to stop the machine and help combine the ingredients into a cohesive ball by hand. At the end of the 5-minute knead time, I hand kneaded the dough for about another minute to get it into a smooth, round shape. The finished dough weight was 20.90 ounces, which was 0.42 ounces more than I wanted based on a 16” square sheet with a thickness factor of 0.08. So I simply trimmed away 0.42 ounces. The finished dough temperature was 81 degrees F.

At this point, I decided on another important change. Instead of forming the dough ball into a rectangular log to then go into the refrigerator, I decided to form it into a square shape. I concluded that possibly a rectangular shape would work for a large amount of dough (e.g., 25 pounds in the case of ThatOneGuy) but that the dimensions were not right for a small amount of dough. Also, since I wanted to ultimately end up with a square sheet of dough (16” by 16”), I thought it made more sense to work exclusively with a square shape and, by so doing, make the rolling out process more symmetrical. So, after placing the dough ball into a generally square-shaped plastic storage container and lightly coating it with shortening, I flattened the dough ball to conform to the shape of the storage container. I would say that the dough piece was about 2” thick. The dough at this stage can be seen in the first photo below. The dough went into the refrigerator, where it stayed for just short of two days, which is the maximum mentioned by ThatOneGuy.

Upon removing the dough piece from the refrigerator, I placed it into my proofing box. A photo of that proofing box is shown at Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49752.html#msg49752. I set the proofing box to about 115-120 degrees F (using the thermometer to tell me the temperature) and allowed the dough, still within its container, to warm up for about two hours.

Whereas the dough had not risen noticeably while in the refrigerator (as ThatOneGuy said would be the case), it rose by about 15% while in the proofing box. I gently removed the dough piece from its container so that it would retain its square shape and put it onto my well-floured work surface. I pressed the dough with my fingers to flatten it as much as possible and, using my tapered wood rolling pin dusted with flour, I then rolled out the dough to a 16” square—rolling from top to bottom and side to side with smooth rhythmic actions so that the skin would have a uniform thickness. I had no problems whatsoever rolling out the skin to this point since the dough was warm and soft. I then dusted the top surface of the skin with a small amount of bench flour and folded the right side of the skin to the center of the skin, which was followed by folding over the left half of the skin over the other half. This is the 1/3-2/3 method previously described by ThatOneGuy and, I believe, is similar to what elsegundo uses. After dusting the exposed surfaces with more bench flour, I repeated this 1/3-2/3 sequence but in the other direction—vertically from top to bottom (i.e., from top to center and bottom to center). This left me with a square piece of dough with multiple layers—more, I believe, than what ThatOneGuy described.  The dough at this point had a shape like the dough piece shown in the first photo but it was in layers, not a single unitary piece. 

I then rolled out this new square piece of dough. This time, the rolling out process was more labored because the dough was fairly stiff and the layers wanted to slide rather than roll out. However, I found that letting the dough rest from time to time--for even a few seconds--made it easier to roll out. As an extemporaneous experiment, I also found that docking the dough piece as I rolled it out seemed to make the dough easier to roll out. I didn’t want to overuse this method and possibly alter the final outcome of the dough in an unintended way, but it occurred to me that it might be something to explore more fully in a future experiment. I also found that when the dough got to about 12” square, the rest of the rolling process went more smoothly and more quickly. The second photo below (without the flash) shows the rolled out dough. From the 16” square sheet of dough, which I first docked using my dough docker, I used my cutter pan as a template to cut out a skin of 14”. Based on the weight of the 14” skin (13.80 ounces), I calculated that its thickness factor was 0.089524. The third photo below (without flash) shows the docked 14” skin.

I decided at this point to put the skin back into the refrigerator (as ThatOneGuy mentioned as one of the alternatives), with the intention of using it later in the day. To prepare the skin for the refrigerator, I dusted both sides of the skin with bench flour and folded it into quarters, which I then encased in plastic wrap before putting it into the refrigerator. This is a method I used successfully with the cracker-style skins I made in recent weeks. The fourth photo below shows the skin as it went back into the refrigerator. The skin remained in the refrigerator for 4 hours. When I removed the skin from the refrigerator, I saw that it had shrunk a bit (which is something I had also experienced with the cracker-style doughs). So, I rolled it out a bit and, to be on the safe side, I re-docked it. I decided not to let the skin warm up before using. The skin went directly into my 14” dark, anodized perforated cutter pan from pizzatools.com that I had lightly brushed with a light olive oil (in lieu of a spray that ThatOneGuy mentioned). I have a dark, anodized perforated disk that I could have used in lieu of the cutter pan, and I might try using that disk sometime, but I wanted to see if I could place the cheeses and toppings out to the edge without their falling off, and the side edges of the cutter pan appeared to offer that possibility. To carry out this objective, I pushed the dough up the sides of the cutter pan so that it would form a rim. Doing this had the effect of reducing the thickness factor to a bit over 0.08, which was the initial targeted number. The fifth photo below shows the perforated cutter pan I used. 

I dressed the skin in the cutter pan using a 3:1:1 ratio of shredded mozzarella cheese (Best Choice low-moisture, part-skim), Provolone cheese (Stella), and medium cheddar cheese (Kraft); a 6-in-1 sauce with a wide variety of herbs and spices chosen more or less at random from my spice rack and microwaved using November’s microwave-assisted extraction method; partially-cooked hot Italian sausage (Safeway house sausage); diced green peppers; sliced raw onion; and Hormel pepperoni slices. I baked the pizza on the lowest oven rack position of my oven that I had preheated to 500 degrees F. After about 8 or 9 minutes, I moved the pizza (still in the cutter pan) to the uppermost oven rack position for an additional 2 minutes, also at 500 degrees F.

The photos in the next post show the finished pizza. I thought that it was exceptional. It wasn’t especially cracker-like and it wasn’t overly crispy, but the crust was crispy at the edges and randomly elsewhere. The center was soft and a bit chewy, and I could see distinct layers when I tried to peel back the crust. I tried to show this--but not particularly artfully--in one of the photos below. The crust coloration was good and there were bubbles here and there but not big enough to constitute eruptions.

Since I have never had an RT pizza, I have no idea of what I created. However, I would be hard pressed to imagine how an authentic RT pizza could be much better than the one I made. It was a great pizza.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

And the photos of the pizza...

[fazzari]

Bravo! Your pictures say it all Peter!!!  I especially love the looks of the bottom...now that looks like a tender crispy crust!!  Believe me, you could sell hundreds of those...and though I've never eaten at RT...whatever you made looks fabulous!!
John

[Pete-zza]

Thanks, John.

I reheated a couple of slices today for lunch, using my toaster oven, and the bottoms of the crusts of the slices were quite crispy and somewhat crackery while still tender. And the underlying flavors and texture of the crust and the crumb remained great.

I think the hardest part of making an RT pizza is adapting it to the home oven. RT uses impingement conveyor ovens that blast heat onto the pizzas, especially on the tops of the pizzas. Maybe some convection home ovens will be able to emulate part of the process but otherwise one has to play around with the way the pizzas are baked--from rack positions, use of disks/screens/pans/stones, pre-bake/no pre-bake, and bake temperatures and times. To get a better match with our ovens, it might even be necessary to tweak the dough formulation. Thus far, we have spent most of the time with the dough formulation that we believe RT is using. However, even then, the results that you and scott r and I and others have achieved have been very good and worth repeating.

Peter

[fazzari]

Peter, without regards to RT, I hope you'll take the time and attempt a bake without screen or pan...I think you'll find this variation just another approach to a great crust!!!!  Believe me, when its perfect...when the bottom and top are done at the same time...you have a first class pizza!! Hope your Christmas is Merry!!!
JOhn

[Pete-zza]

John,

It has been my intention all along to try baking some of the thin crust pizzas on a stone, just as I have done with the NY and other styles. In fact, I started with the stone--long before I ever heard of cutter pans, screens and disks and the like. I believe I also read somewhere in this thread that some of the early RT locations used deck ovens.

I hope that you and yours also have a great Xmas.

Peter

[Lydia]

Alright...I tried a different way of handling the current cheater's formula and I'm thrilled!
I got the RT inner structure I was working toward "except" that it was much more tender. RT has a more of leathery resistance. It was nearly identical the new Pizza Paradise Chain that spun-off from Round Table. In my opinion Paradise has a better crust.

New procedure:
After refrigeration and slightly rounding the dough I allowed it to set at room temp for an hour . (in plastic)
I divided one of the dough halves into 3 equal sized (weighted) pieces and lightly shaped into balls.
I let these set for about an 1hr and a half...maybe 2hrs. ( in plastic)
I lightly rolled the dough ball in a small amount of flour to lightly coat. (used GM all purpose, relevance unknown)
Flattened the ball into a disk then rolled each ball on an unfloured, untreated cutting board.
Unfloured because I have learned from making flour tortillas that this stretches the dough thin without toughening and drying out the dough surface.
I rolled with the pin a few times then rotated the skin to make sure it wasn't sticking to the board until very thin a bit over 10 inches like 10 1/4". (When the dough sticks it causes the dough to crimp...the crimped areas appear not to have any affect on the outcome it just makes a less than perfect circle.)

After each was rolled they were placed one on top of the other on a wooden peel, to make a stack of 3.
There was a bit of adhesion between the layers from setting but they could still be separated if done carefully.
I trimmed the stack with a "dull" pizza wheel removing about 1/4" inch. The purpose of the dull wheel is that it equally cuts and smashes/seals the dough.
Flipped the dough stack over then ran a dough docker criss cross (2 swipes only) through the dough to help pin the layers together.
note: I am not rolling over the stack with the pin just trimming and docking.

Topped and baked as usual.

Note: I have also used dough that was still a bit cold in the center and didn't notice any difference in the outcome.



Results:
Here's some pics: Note that there is more melding of the layers that had sat on top of eachother the longest. remember I flipped the dough before docking, so it will be the upper layers....Just like RT!
First pic: cross section of bubble showing the greater adhesion of the bottom layers.
Second pic: bottom crust
Third: separation of crust from bubble opening you can see it's more tender.
Last pic: the elusive biscuit like layers. Crust was separated in an area without a bubble.


I wish I knew what was responsible for it but it's been showing up consistently with the procedure above. I'd be very interested to see what results this sheeting proceedure would have on Peter's current formula.

[dland]

Sounds like we have some new recipes to try out. I had RT today for the first time in a while (2+ years) and I have to say that it was even better than I remembered. I think maybe the time I've spent trying to recreate it has given me a new appreciation for how good it really is. And I think some of the recipes we are working with (namely Peter's and Lydia's) are surprisingly close. The resulting crusts hit a lot of the major points in terms of texture and taste. They have the moist bisquity layering, the bubbles, the thin crackery layer on the bottom, and the cold fermented flavor. It's pretty amazing we can get as close as we can, especially those of us that have never had RT pizza (for whom I feel deeply sorry).

Having recently made a prior incarnation of Peter's crust, I'd have to say one of the shortcomings is that it's too rubbery. The RT pizza I had today was very tender. I would attribute this to hand-rolling vs. the use of a sheeter. I like Lydia's idea of creating the sheets separately and stacking them on top of each other. I'm also a little surprised that she felt RT has lethery layers. Maybe I got a better-than-normal pizza today but it was exceptionally tender.

I noticed that they kind of skimped on the sauce and that it wasn't as dark or spicy as I remembered. It was hard to tell because there was so little of it on the pizza. I meant to ask for a separate container of sauce while I was there but I totally spaced and forgot.

So while I no longer know what to think about what the correct sauce would be, I think we're pretty close on the crust. I still feel like a sheeter is the final missing piece (and possibly cooking technique as Peter has mentioned, though we may not have as much recourse in that department).

The cheese was also fairly salty and very rich in flavor. It has almost a soft grittiness to it. I'm not sure what that's due to (I know nothing about cheese) but I like it. Also very flavorful (and very thin) pepperoni.

[Pete-zza]

I have experimented in the past with the skin-stack method, both for a cracker-style dough (e.g, the Lehmann baking soda recipe) and for a Chicago-style deep-dish dough. In both cases, I was after increased crispiness. The shortcoming of that method is, of course, is that it is a tedious and time-consuming method. That alone might discourage one, even a seasoned pizza maker, from attempting it. Likewise, I am sure that some people will see my proofing box, as simple and as easy to use as it is, and stop dead in their tracks from proceeding further. Some might stop as soon as they see a photo of a dough docker or a cutter pan or a tapered wood rolling pin. It's only the diehards on a mission who will entertain doing something unique or out of the ordinary and drag out all of the paraphenalia in order to achieve a particular outcome. If I had sampled a real RT pizza before, I might find myself obsessed about replicating it. I think it goes with the territory that if you want to make a thin crust pizza in the home that is based on using a commercial sheeter/roller, as are the RT crusts, you are going to have to do some work and be creative. For most people, it is just far easier to make a simple NY style with very basic ingredients and be done with it.

Peter

[Lydia]

Hi Pete

Looks like you've made some progress on a "real" formula for this clone. I'm glad you've taken it on, I'd like to eventually get away from using the mix.

One of the unique things about the Cheater dough it that it's amazingly easy to roll out. Dividing the dough into even smaller portions has proved to make it even easier. It ultimately takes less time to use this stacking method than it was otherwise.

Right now, I assuming that using the smaller portions is also a contributing factor to the increased tenderness because the dough is ultimately being worked less by the roller to achieve proper thickness.

But I should also mention that I have used this stacking method prior to the cheater's formula and have not achieved these results. Those formula's weren't as easy to roll out and had a greater thickness factor.

Dave

One of the things that we have noted before is that RT dough and sauce has been inconsistent between locations. I should clarify that I typically would label a RT crust as leathery but when compared to the delicateness I achieved with this most recent experiment there was a lack of tooth or pull that I have found to be typical charcteristic when having RT in various cities and locations. The new results were almost "velvety".

One of my pet peeves about RT is that some locations tend not to incorporate the seasonings thoroughly into the sauce. It takes time to get those larges batches mixed properly and not every employee is willing to do it right. This "fault" has made picking out some of the seasonings in the sauce less of a chore.

I have not had gritty cheese from RT ever, but as home I have. Most often it seems to be related to the quantity of cheese and bake times. Less cheese, long bakes times. But I also had an issue early on when blending cheeses... from some reason they didn't work well together and I got grittiness. I changed brands and have not has this problems since then.

RT also has started using semolina to dust their new gormet crust and could also be a culprit, but without having had it personally I wouldn't know for sure.

Happy Holidays Everyone!

[Pete-zza]

When I made my last pizza, I found that I had 7 ounces of dough left over after I had cut the 14” skin out of the 16” square sheet of dough. Pending a decision as to what to do with that scrap dough, I put it in my refrigerator. This morning, I decided to use the dough to conduct various experiments with folding and rolling processes. In preparation for doing this, I put the dough into my proofing box for about an hour, at around 120 degrees F, in order to soften it up and hopefully make it more amenable to rolling. (This is the second time that this dough had been in the proofing box.) I then rolled it out to about 12”. This step was quite easy. I then folded the skin as I had done before (with my last pizza), and re-rolled it. I did this a second time. Each re-rolling became increasingly more difficult. I also used my dough docker to see if that would make the rolling process any easier but concluded that it did not help much. It’s possible that the dough had been rolled too much (and/or warmed up too many times) to make this method viable, so I haven’t ruled it out completely. I may want to try that technique on a fresh dough.

I managed with some effort to roll out the “multi-folded” skin to 10”, which corresponded from a thickness factor standpoint (a bit over 0.08) to my last pizza. Rather than throwing away the skin at this point, I decided to make a pizza out of it and also to bake the pizza on my pizza stone. Since this skin had been worked over quite a bit with all the folding and re-rolling (including when I made the original dough), I did not know what to expect. But I proceeded nonetheless. As the pizza stone heated up, at about 500 degrees F for about an hour, I let the 10” skin (which I had docked) proof at room temperature.

To prepare the pizza, I dressed it in the same way as the last one, including the selection of cheeses, sauce and toppings. The pizza baked on my preheated pizza stone for about 6-7 minutes, on the lowest oven rack position.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza this time was more crispy and cracker-like than my last one and it had several large bubbles in the crust at the rim. There were definitely several layers in the crumb but the center of the crust was not nearly as soft and tender as with my last pizza. Although I liked the appearance of the latest pizza and especially the crispy outer edges with the browned cheeses, I thought the last one was better, mainly because it had a softer interior.

I realize that the latest pizza is not a fair test when compared to my last pizza. However, the test seems to suggest that there is a limit as to how much you can fold and re-roll a skin and not have it end up being too crispy and cracker-like and not tender enough. On a positive note, I liked the way the dough expanded on the pizza stone and the way the bubbles formed in the crust, especially at the rim. The only major reservation I have at this point about using the pizza stone with this type of pizza is whether I can use it for a pizza that is larger than the 10” pizza I prepared today, particularly in light of the thinness of the skin. When I assembled today’s pizza on my floured peel and shook the peel to be sure that the pizza would glide off of the peel, some of the toppings fell off of the edge. I imagine that this becomes more of a problem with a larger pizza, such as a 14” pizza (or larger). To compensate, I may have to move the toppings away from the edge. Maybe John (fazzari) can tell me how he does it in his pizzeria and deck oven.

Peter