Norma's epoxy dough

[norma427]

However, even then it is not clear whether Norma would have enough room in her deli case, which is kept on over the weekend, to store all of the preferment/soaker dough for a full production quantity, along with all of the other stuff Norma keeps in the deli case, like cheeses and sodas. Previously, Norma has indicated that she would not have enough room in her deli case for a full amount of dough for her Tuesday production.

Peter

Peter,

I did indicate before that I don’t think I have enough room in my deli case to handle a full amount of dough for a Tuesday.  I am not sure if I would have enough room for the preferment and soaker for using the epoxy method, but might have enough room in the deli case for that.  I do have a part of the big bottom area empty and part of two tops shelves that are usually empty until Tuesday.  Of course I wouldn’t know how a larger batch of the epoxy dough preferment would act and also how a larger amount of soaker would also act.  I don’t know if larger batches of soaker would break down faster or not.  I do know in larger batches of preferment it seems to bubble more over several days, than just a preferment for one dough ball.

Norma

[JimmyG]

The doughs made this week were three round and one square grandma. The master formula was:
Flour (100%):    909.23 g  |  32.07 oz | 2 lbs
Water (65%):    591 g  |  20.85 oz | 1.3 lbs
IDY (.2%):    1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (2%):    18.18 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.79 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Total (167.2%):   1520.24 g | 53.62 oz | 3.35 lbs | TF = 0.101

The procedure was straightforward, 10% preferment by flour weight and 50% soaker/mash by total dough weight were held at 45F for 3 days before mixing the final dough. The water temp of the mash was approximately 115F. The dough was bulk fermented before dividing the day of the bake.

From this recipe, I created four doughs. One grandma topping in at 425g and three round (approximately 325 -365 g). All were baked at 550F.

The grandma, I am not clear why, was a little tough but tasted very good.

The three other doughs, as Norma mentioned, this weeks pizza had a softer crumb and did not brown quite as much on the bottom, yet brown rather quickly on the top. The stone was preheated for nearly 90 mins at 550F (my guest were running a little late), but I am not ruling out human error as a cause either. Oven spring was much better than before when I was using a water temp between 127 and 132F for the soaker.  I may split the difference next time with the water temp and aim for 119-123F.  All the pizzas tasted good and had a nice flavor.

Jim

[norma427]

Norma,
Your pizza does have some beautiful oven spring, the hole structure looks great too. However, I did experience the same soft result this yesterday with my crusts as well, so it was not just you.  I think I may have mentioned something about this as a concern this weekend when I mixed up the dough. It felt softer or something was different than before. For the most part I followed the same formula we had been using too with the exception of lowering the water temp (and I made on grandma style pizza, which was actually a little tougher than usual???).  Do you have any thoughts on what is going on? Was thinking it could be b/c we lowered the water temp maybe but not entirely sure? I was much happier though with my oven spring. Not nearly as dense.

Jim

Jim,

I wish I had some opinions on what happen with both of our bottom crusts being softer, but really don’t know what is going on with that.  I had thought maybe I added too much oil to the steel pan, but always have used about the same amounts of oil before for my Sicilian or Greek doughs and never had that problem.  You might be right that lowering the temperature of the water had something to do with the softer bottom crust, the moister crumb and oven spring.  I liked the moister crumb and oven spring, but didn’t like the softer bottom crust.  I don’t know what to make of that.

When I used the epoxy method for the NY style Lehmann dough, I had such different results in that the bottom crust was actually crisper than normal.  I don’t know if I should try less oil in the pan when trying to put the dough in a pan or not.

Norma 

[norma427]

Jim,

To me all of your pizzas look great.  Really like the nice oven spring in your round pizzas! 

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

@Peter thanks for reminding me about Norma's constraints at her stand. With all the experimenting going on it sometimes slips from my mind!

@Norma definitely plan on giving this ago within the next week or so and will report back.

[norma427]

@Norma definitely plan on giving this ago within the next week or so and will report back.

John,

Great to hear that you definitely plan on giving the "epoxy" method a go.  Since you experiment a lot it will be interesting to hear of your results. 

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

Jimmyg

That's a nice looking crumb in those shot above, what type of flour were you using for that pizza?

[dmcavanagh]

The reason I ask is I have beeen doing a lot of Sicilian style pies lately, and I always do rather long cold ferments. I have been finding that bread flours are not giving me the feel I like in the finished dough. I realize that the bread flour would seem to make more sense for the open crumb structure that so many people deem desirable, but with the more openness of the crumb seems to come a bit of toughness with the dough. Perhaps the lenghty ferment, even though slowed by the cold, is contributing to the toughness when using bread flour. Your thoughts!?

[JimmyG]

At some point in the next few days, I am going to try to mix up another dough for next week. After re-reviewing Norma’s Lehmann epoxy dough formula and results, I am now wondering if the higher hydration last time is attributed to the lack of browning in the undercarriage of my crust. It could possibly be that with the higher hydration, long refrigeration time, and large amount of soaker in the final dough, we may need to reduce the hydration in all formulas by a few percentage points to compensate, the exception possibly being Norma’s last Lehmann attempt which looked incredible.  I am going to lowered the hydration by 2% to see if this amends the problem. I am going to try to up the water temp too by 5% to see what effect that may also bring about.

Jim

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  611.31 g  |  21.56 oz | 1.35 lbs
Water (63%):  385.13 g  |  13.58 oz | 0.85 lbs
Salt (3%):    18.34 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.82 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
IDY (.2%):    1.22 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total (166.2%): 1016 g | 35.84 oz | 2.24 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   338.67 g | 11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs

Preferment (20% by flour weight):
Flour:    61.13 g | 2.16 oz | 0.13 lbs
Water: 61.13 g | 2.16 oz | 0.13 lbs
IDY: 1.22 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total:    122.26 g | 4.31 oz | 0.27 lbs

Soaker/Mash (50% by total dough weight; target water temp 120F-125F):
Flour:    254 g | 8.96 oz | 0.56 lbs
Water: 254 g | 8.96 oz | 0.56 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour: 296 g
Water: 70 g
Salt:    18.34 g
Preferment: 122.26 g
Soaker: 508 g
Total: 1016 g | 35.84 oz | 2.24 lbs  | TF = 0.09

[JimmyG]

Dave,
It is just KAAP. Nothing too special. I guess I like it mostly b/c they are consistent and have a moderate protein content. As far as toughness, you could try upping the hydration or adding oil (God forbid). Also, I have noticed that too much handling or shaping before a bake yields a little tougher crust too. I think this was the problem I had with the grandma this week.

Jim

[norma427]

Jim,

I can understand you wanted to drop the hydration some, to see if that might solve some problems and also up the water temperature by 5 degrees for the soaker, but could you explain why you upped the preferment amount from 10% to 20%?  What style of pies are you going to try for this coming week?

I think I am only going to start another attempt on the epoxy Lehmann NY style dough for this coming week to see if I can achieve consistent results, but drop the added amount of IDY I used in the final dough.  My preferment still didn’t bubble enough until Monday and I had to put it into the oven again with the light on until it bubbled enough.  I might also up the water temperature some.  Do you still want me to take the pH numbers?  I think I am only going to attempt one epoxy dough this week.

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

Jimmyg

Thanks, I'm fine with KAAP, I prefer ap flours to bread flours for Siclian style pies. Yes, handling can be a big issue, I found that out on a dough that I did some S & F's on which I normally don't do.

[JimmyG]

Norma,
I upped the preferment amount mostly b/c I think it helps to better insulate the yeast during cool down after placing it in the fridge and over the storage period especially given the small quantity of preferment we are working with. I guess I could always scale back the true amount of preferment to 10% in the final dough. I may explore that option instead. I am still a little curious why your not getting much action in your preferment. By chance, do you know what your prep fridge is set at? I keep my fridge near 42F and have had no issues with bubble.

No need to continue with the pH sensor. You provided the data I needed. Thanks.
Jim

[norma427]

Norma,
I upped the preferment amount mostly b/c I think it helps to better insulate the yeast during cool down after placing it in the fridge and over the storage period especially given the small quantity of preferment we are working with. I guess I could always scale back the true amount of preferment to 10% in the final dough. I may explore that option instead. I am still a little curious why your not getting much action in your preferment. By chance, do you know what your prep fridge is set at? I keep my fridge near 42F and have had no issues with bubble.

Jim

Jim,

I didn’t even think of a larger amount of preferment being able to insulate the yeast better during the cool down after placing it in the fridge. You don’t have to scale back the true amount of preferment.  I had just wondered why the amount was upped.  I know in the preferment Lehmann dough I was using before the amount of preferment was about 30%, but if I made that preferment for 15 lb. batches or even cut it back to 5 lb. batches, there was less bubbling in the preferment over a 3 days period in the 5 lb. batches, even if I left it in my Hatco unit to bubble a little before I put it in the deli case.  I even noticed a smaller amount of bubbling with the preferment Lehmann dough if I tried a 1 dough ball batch.  I can see what you are trying to explain to me makes sense about using a larger amount of preferment.  My deli case at market is kept below 40 degrees F.  My home fridge now is about 40 degrees also.  Maybe I will just put a little more IDY in the preferment to see what happens, or either let it sit out a little to get the yeast started faster.

Thanks!

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma,

What time do you come in each day and when do you serve pizza? How much time do you have to make dough in between if you (hypothetically of course ) made a same day dough?

[norma427]

Norma,

What time do you come in each day and when do you serve pizza? How much time do you have to make dough in between if you (hypothetically of course ) made a same day dough?

John,

I only really make pizzas one day at market.  I get to market around 8:00 am or a little later on a Tuesday.  I first have to get all my stuff set-up such as add water to my sauce, take the covers off of my stand and fold them, set the counter up, turn my breaker on for the hot water, put dough balls out to warm-up, put cash in the register, light the oven, mixed the herb garlic sauce for some of my stuff,  put the sign on my van, put all my utensils out in containers, make sure my wash water is correct, make sure the Parmesan container is filled, then go shop around market for any toppings I might want to use for the day or something I might want to take home.  Then I come back and open two doughs, one for Sicilian and one for a Greek pizza and oil the pans and let the dough proof in the pans.  Then I start making pizza pinwheels, cheesy breadsticks and garlic knots.  I start them first because it doesn’t matter if my oven isn’t up to temperature.  I usually start making pizzas around 9:45 am.   I never made a same day dough for market.  I usually try to gauge on a Friday or Monday how many doughs balls I might need for Tuesday.  Steve doesn’t come to market until about 12:00 pm, so I have to do everything myself in the morning which is making all the stuff and waiting on customers.  Sometimes it can get pretty hectic, especially near lunch. If I find time in-between all that other stuff I wash dishes. 

I know I wouldn’t have anytime to make a dough in-between doing all that other stuff, because then it would be more clean-up and I sure don't know how my dough could be consistent though out the day until about 8:00 pm at night.  Why do you ask?  I get up in the morning about 5:30 am to start to get ready for market. 

I know I experiment way to much on the forum and am going to cut my experimenting down, because it usually leads me back to the same place, which is the regular Lehmann dough.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma,

If I were to be able to suggest a formula and method that might work well in consideration of your constraints I would need to understand when you have time allocated for making pizza dough. When do make your dough? How long do you allocate in hours? How many dough balls do you make/how big is your batch? Is the same dough used for thin crust, Sicilian etc. or different doughs? You retard the dough during bulk and proof or when?

John

[norma427]

Norma,

If I were to be able to suggest a formula and method that might work well in consideration of your constraints I would need to understand when you have time allocated for making pizza dough. When do make your dough? How long do you allocate in hours? How many dough balls do you make/how big is your batch? Is the same dough used for thin crust, Sicilian etc. or different doughs? You retard the dough during bulk and proof or when?

John

John,

The first big problem about changing my dough too much is my customers do like the pies I make.  I have had many customers tell me not to ever change my dough (when they know I do experiments).  Little do some of them know I have changed it different times, but all of them were Lehmann doughs, so it might be hard for them to be able to tell the differences.  I know when I changed from the preferment Lehmann dough to a straight Lehmann dough not one customer noticed any difference.  Even if I change flours no one seems to be able to notice any differences either.  Only a select few of my taste testers can tell a difference if I makes changes to the Lehmann dough in the final pizzas.

I would like a change, but really don’t know about my customers.  That is why I posted that I am not going to experiment as much anymore.  I think I have run enough experiments and they usually don’t get me anywhere. 

To answer your questions, I make the dough right now on a Monday.  It doesn’t matter how many hours I spend on it, but it goes rather quickly right now because I do know how to make dough.  I also know how to scale, divide and ball fairly quickly.  I only ever make 15 lb. batches at a time because I have a 20 qt. Hobart and don’t want to push it more.  The same dough is only used for the Greek Style pizzas.  I scale, divide, ball, then put the dough balls in to plastic balls right away after mixing.  If it is cooler at market, I might let the dough balls sit out for a little while, before refrigerating.  When it is hotter the dough balls go right into the pizza prep fridge.  When I made the preferment Lehmann dough I started the preferment on a Friday, put it into the Hatco Unit until it bubbled a little, then cold fermented the preferment for 3 days before making the final dough.  The dough balls were then cold fermented for one day.  Peter came up with that formulation for me.  You have to remember if you are considering a new formulation for me that the temperature at market can range between about 44 degrees F to about 96 degrees F. 

Norma     

[dmcavanagh]

Norma

If your dough is good and your customers like it, why do you feel the need for constant experiments to change it. Leave well enough alone, let a sleeping dog lie.... whatever! I settled on my standard NY style years ago, very happy with it, always works, I'm not messing with it. Sometimes we read too much and try to copy someone else, when in reality your own dough is just as good or better then the one you are trying to copy. You can't improve on perfection, but you can drive yourself crazy trying. Just my 2 cents!

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma, I don't want to change your excellent dough (unless we come up with something obviously better somehow), I am just trying to understand the constraints and what you are after with all this tinkering!

Do you want an easier dough to make, a somehow better tasting dough or both or something else all together? What is the goal of the tinkering with the market dough/s?