Norma's epoxy dough

[norma427]

Norma

If your dough is good and your customers like it, why do you feel the need for constant experiments to change it. Leave well enough alone, let a sleeping dog lie.... whatever! I settled on my standard NY style years ago, very happy with it, always works, I'm not messing with it. Sometimes we read too much and try to copy someone else, when in reality your own dough is just as good or better then the one you are trying to copy. You can't improve on perfection, but you can drive yourself crazy trying. Just my 2 cents!

Norma, I don't want to change your excellent dough (unless we come up with something obviously better somehow), I am just trying to understand the constraints and what you are after with all this tinkering!

Do you want an easier dough to make, a somehow better tasting dough or both or something else all together? What is the goal of the tinkering with the market dough/s?

Dave and John,

Thanks for trying to help me!   I know my dough could be better and there is some way I could make a better tasting pizza crust.  That is what I have been trying to do ever since I first learned to make pizza dough.  I know I drive myself half crazy sometimes trying.  I would like to have the best tasting pizza possible under the conditions and time restraints market sets for me.  I really don’t think I am doing the best possible job I could do.  I do want to please my customers, but also want to please anyone that might have tasted great pizzas.  

I have tried different oven temperatures (although not a lot lately), preferments, sourdough, Reinhart doughs, tried adding stuff in my dough, tried different flours, different TF and so many other things and that is why I am posting that I am about ready to stop experimenting because I usually don’t get much of anywhere.  I guess it is just the tinker at heart that I am that I keep trying, but I do get frustrated sometimes.  I really don’t think my pizzas are anywhere near perfect.  I guess in the end I would like a pizzas like this recent epoxy dough pizza in that it was so easy to open, had a good moist crust, and good bottom browning, but don’t know if that will be possible to do at market all the time.

Norma      

[JimmyG]

I have tried different oven temperatures (although not a lot lately), preferments, sourdough, Reinhart doughs, tried adding stuff in my dough, tried different flours, different TF and so many other things and that is why I am posting that I am about ready to stop experimenting because I usually don’t get much of anywhere.

I guess in the end I would like a pizzas like this recent epoxy dough pizza in that it was so easy to open, had a good moist crust, and good bottom browning, but don’t know if that will be possible to do at market all the time.

Norma,
I don't blame you one bit. While we have been getting good results, it is probably not the most practical recipe out there given all the steps involved. And truth be told, I am getting a little tired of experimenting too. I think we have tinkered plenty with this formula and have found out what works well and what approaches are not working. This is one of the reasons I went back to you and Peters original Lehmann formula for this weeks recipe–which I mixed up yesterday I should add– because it appears to work well with this approach.  I am still trying to research in my spare time what is going on given what we have experienced and the pH data you have provided. Sometime in the next week or two I hope to write it all up.

Jim

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What has made your situation so difficult and challenging is the restrictions imposed upon you by market, not anything of your own doing. So you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Consider also how much you have learned from all of your experiments. And since I have been your back seat driver and "consultant" for so long, I have also learned an enormous amount, much of which I have put to use in other situations. And the bulk of what you did is recorded on the forum for others to see and use if they see fit, and for us to find when we want to refresh our memories. I know you have a lot of fans that you have inspired and who tune in around 8:15PM-8:30PM on Tuesday nights to see the pizzas you made that day, including the results of all your new experiments for that day and your assessment of them.

Trying to make a pizza targeted for use only on Tuesdays, whether started on the previous Friday or on Monday, and that meets all of your expectations from a quality and performance standpoint, is a tall order. But if you like the epoxy dough formulation that you and Jim collaborated on you might want to work on that formulation to see if you can get it to work consistently at market, knowing if that doesn't happen you can always fall back on one of your prior workable formulations. That will also give you time to regroup and relax a bit before the next challenge. You are not quite ready for the rocking chair.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
I don't blame you one bit. While we have been getting good results, it is probably not the most practical recipe out there given all the steps involved. And truth be told, I am getting a little tired of experimenting too. I think we have tinkered plenty with this formula and have found out what works well and what approaches are not working. This is one of the reasons I went back to you and Peters original Lehmann formula for this weeks recipe–which I mixed up yesterday I should add– because it appears to work well with this approach.  I am still trying to research in my spare time what is going on given what we have experienced and the pH data you have provided. Sometime in the next week or two I hope to write it all up.

Jim

Jim,

I know the epoxy method isn’t the most practical, but it still interests me.  I am not sure though if the epoxy dough continues to work out how it will all fall into place in larger batches.  I did start another attempt at the Lehmann epoxy dough yesterday with mixing the preferment and soaker.  The only thing I changed from last week was I upped the soaker water temperature to 118.9 degrees F to see what would happen, or if water temperature seems to matter for the soaker in the Lehmann dough.  I also left the soaker sit out for ½ hr. the same as before.  If anyone wants me to post the print out of the formulation I used the last week and this week I can.

Thank you for continuing to research what is going on with what we have experienced.  I appreciate that very much. 

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

Norma

I love following your experiments and seeing your gorgeous pies. Did you notice the thread on SLICE where some place is topping there pizza with strips of sauce the same way you did on some Sicilians? Just don't lose site of the fact that at it's routes pizza was a food of the peasants. A simple dough made with the simpliest of ingredients and topped sparingly with whatever was available. To over think , over process and over top pizza is to do it a disservice.Simple is often the best something can be. A simple dough is still the most delicious dough to be had.

[norma427]

Norma,

What has made your situation so difficult and challenging is the restrictions imposed upon you by market, not anything of your own doing. So you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Consider also how much you have learned from all of your experiments. And since I have been your back seat driver and "consultant" for so long, I have also learned an enormous amount, much of which I have put to use in other situations. And the bulk of what you did is recorded on the forum for others to see and use if they see fit, and for us to find when we want to refresh our memories. I know you have a lot of fans that you have inspired and who tune in around 8:15PM-8:30PM on Tuesday nights to see the pizzas you made that day, including the results of all your new experiments for that day and your assessment of them.

Trying to make a pizza targeted for use only on Tuesdays, whether started on the previous Friday or on Monday, and that meets all of your expectations from a quality and performance standpoint, is a tall order. But if you like the epoxy dough formulation that you and Jim collaborated on you might want to work on that formulation to see if you can get it to work consistently at market, knowing if that doesn't happen you can always fall back on one of your prior workable formulations. That will also give you time to regroup and relax a bit before the next challenge. You are not quite ready for the rocking chair.

Peter

Peter,

I know what makes it so challenging to make a good dough at market is the time restrains put on me from market.  If I only could get into market over the weekend, or have better temperature control, I believe I could make a better pizza.  

I know you have been my back seat driver and consultant though many of my experiments and I appreciate that very much.  I also have learned a lot though all of the experiments, but back to the old same thing as I can’t still make the best pizzas as I would like for market.  I am not thinking about stopping experimenting because I always learn something from those experiments, but what makes it frustrating to me is usually I can’t apply what I learn to a market dough.  I always like to learn about how pizza dough works and even if I can’t make those doughs for market, probably never will stop experimenting.  

I know I am not ready for the rocking chair yet.  I think when that time comes I will be really frustrated.

Thanks for your continuing support!  

Norma  

[norma427]

Norma

I love following your experiments and seeing your gorgeous pies. Did you notice the thread on SLICE where some place is topping there pizza with strips of sauce the same way you did on some Sicilians? Just don't lose site of the fact that at it's routes pizza was a food of the peasants. A simple dough made with the simpliest of ingredients and topped sparingly with whatever was available. To over think , over process and over top pizza is to do it a disservice.Simple is often the best something can be. A simple dough is still the most delicious dough to be had.

Dave,

Thanks so much for your continuing support also.  I did not notice the thread on Slice where some place is topping their pizzas with strips of sauce the same way I did on some Sicilians.  I know pizzas roots was a food for the peasants.   Thanks for posting that a simple dough might be the best.  Now if I only owned a WFO.  I think being able to bake in Steve’s WFO has spoiled me. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What I have found to work best for me is to use the immersion method for a particular pizza style or process. I stick with one thing until I have pretty much exhausted it. I don't like to jump around from one thing to another. Otherwise, it would be like trying to learn five languages at one time. I would end up confused, the transferrence of knowledge from one setting to another would be poor, and I would end up speaking like the Tower of Babel (confusion of tongues). Also, as you know, I am not a fan of multi-tasking because it is not an efficient way of getting things done. Unfortunately, technology has pushed everyone into multi-tasking and reduced everyone's attention span.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What I have found to work best for me is to use the immersion method for a particular pizza style or process. I stick with one thing until I have pretty much exhausted it. I don't like to jump around from one thing to another. Otherwise, it would be like trying to learn five languages at one time. I would end up confused, the transferrence of knowledge from one setting to another would be poor, and I would end up speaking like the Tower of Babel (confusion of tongues). Also, as you know, I am not a fan of multi-tasking because it is not an efficient way of getting things done. Unfortunately, technology has pushed everyone into multi-tasking and reduced everyone's attention span.

Peter

Peter,

I know how you always work on one project at hand and for long time, before you start another one.  I have seen all your reverse engineering projects, Kitchen Aid experiments, most of your other threads and how much time, research and experimenting you have done until you got them perfected or learned all you could. 

I know you already know how I have jumped around from one dough formulation to another.  I don’t know why I do that, but guess I think I might learn about making more kinds of pizzas that way in a shorter amount of time.  Maybe that is why I get frustrated sometimes and then jump into another experiment.  I also know that multi-taking isn’t the best thing to do when it comes to making pizza if I really want to learn.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

I didn't notice Norma striping pies with sauce (diagonally) until after I posted about it in Jim's Umberto's thread.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17993.msg174548.html#msg174548 . Places in Brooklyn have been doing this for sometime, likely before Norma had her stand. Buddy's in Detroit does straight stripes as well.

What I don't get is that by Norma's own admission no one could really tell the difference when she used a straight dough. Further many of the places that make "great pizza" that Norma mentioned employ the use of a straight, same same dough! These are places run by people you all revere -- not gonna name names though! If it is good enough for these famous pizzerias and even people that insist on cold fermenting and or long ferments love and laud these pizzas, something just doesn't add up. Also Chau freely admits some of his very best pizza was a 3 hour, same day dough. The pic I attached is a 4 hour, same day dough. The pie was inhaled and no one suggested it would have been better if it was an older dough. I listen less to the book writers than I do the people I personally know that run very successful pizzerias. It is the arm chair quarterbacks (with more time and flexibility with their bakes) who mostly push for extended, cold ferments, while pro bakers mostly make same day doughs.

A same day dough, possibly leaveaned with an ADY based liquid levain, to me, would be the pragmatic choice for Norma's use case. All that would be required would be a quick light mix that would take a few minutes early in the day and then and hour later or so a quick balling session, followed by proofing prior to use. Dough that will not be immediately used would get retarded. Additionally, having a dough that is very extensible and has an open crumb when baked is easily accomplished by undermixing/mixing less and handling the dough as little as possible at every point as to not degas it. All of the stuff that Norma wants in her pizza can be achieved with a straight, same day dough -- the only one that would know would be her.

--

Norma, I  love your tinkering nature and enjoy your experiments. My MO is quite simply to help you (if I can) achieve what you want with your dough, not to curb your experimentation. I think what you, Peter and Jim have been doing is awesome!

[JimmyG]

Not to interrupt the conversation but I just thought of something and figured I should post it before I forget. There is one more test that we can run to get a sense of what is happening in in the soaker, an iodine test. I was reviewing my old biochem text book to get some ideas for lecture and came across this test.  In short, in the presence of starch granules (chains of amylose in particular) a solution of water and iodine will turn a very dark bluish/purple. The more starch present, the darker the color. As the amylose gets broken down into simple sugars (glucose, maltose, fructose, etc) the solution will become lighter in color as the starches break down. This iodine test would allow us to compare the color of the soaker and preferment to a control (just an flour and water slurry) to see how much starch is being broken down into sugar by both methods.

The experiment itself is fairly straightforward. Mix together an small, but equal amounts of flour and water, eg 20 g of both flour and water in a clear glass or plastic vessel. Add a few drops of iodine to the flour and water mixture and stir.

I may head over the drug store today or tomorrow and pick up iodine to test this out. If anyone would like to try this out themselves, let me know. This test not only has applications for the soaker method, but any pizza recipe in general where one wants to see how much starch is being degraded over time.
Jim
 

 
 

[johnnydoubleu]

I also find in a little curious that this notion of extended and/or retarded fermentation sticks yet one reason to employ a preferment is to expedite the dough making process, not slow it down. More flavor, while maintaining structure, in less time -- not more time.

[scott123]

It is the arm chair quarterbacks (with more time and flexibility with their bakes) who mostly push for extended, cold ferments, while pro bakers mostly make same day doughs.

So, you're telling me that

Bianco
Caporuscio
Mangieri
Spangler
Varasano
Taylor
Deane
Adriani
Giannone
Lindberg
Lahey
Bonci

are not pro bakers?

[johnnydoubleu]

I was hoping you'd chime in Scott. I have personally spoken with Matt & Jim from Co. for example and what they do is not quite what people have in their heads. It is not particularly time intensive. A certain place in N. Brooklyn also comes to mind.

And when I speak of bakers, I mean bread as well. I know what I've tasted and seen firsthand, and that is that there is more than one way to make great pizza and bread. Most pro bread doughs are indeed same day or near. How long is Tartine's process?

Of course if I use a super tiny leaven, I expect it to take more time.

[Pete-zza]

John,

I mentioned to Norma a while ago about the benefits of preferments to shorten production time, at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg179070.html#msg179070, so Norma is aware of that benefit. However, in Norma's case, as I believe she would tell you, anything that she does at ambient temperature at market has been a problem. Remember, she is working in an environment where the temperature over the course of the year can be as low as 44 degrees F and as high as 96 degrees F. In effect, she is outdoors most of the time. By contrast, the pizza operators who make same-day room temperature fermented doughs in NYC and elsewhere, maybe even in multiple batches throughout the day, have a fairly narrow range of ambient temperatures.

Also, Norma is not making a same-day dough with a window of 3-4 hours. Her window starts at about 9:45 AM and ends at about 8 PM. Now, if Norma decided not to make any experimental doughs and to have someone on hand to handle other routine matters so that she could stand over the dough balls all day (10 hours and 15 minutes) like a mother hen, and make adjustments as necessary, such as moving the dough balls in and out of the deli case or cooler, she might be able to manage her inventory of dough balls more efficiently so that they survive the day no matter the ambient temperature. That would not be a practical solution for Norma. Moreover, she likes to mix it up with Steve and her taste testers and customers.

On the matter of same day doughs made by professional bakers, I thought that you might have been referring to the Neapolitan pizzaiolos who make same day doughs. In fact, that is the predominant practice. I'd like to see those practioners make and use dough balls at temperatures ranging from 44-96 degrees F. 

Peter

[johnnydoubleu]

Peter,

I was indeed also referring to Neo guys (the ones actually in Naples) who make same day doughs, which is the norm. That list would be a lot longer... As far as the temps Norma has to contend with I would think that could be overcome by using a temp tolerant IDY yeast. On warmer days she would use less yeast than on cooler days and the dough would be retarded once it is balled (apart from those that will be used shortly).

--

I should add in no way shape or form am I saying quicker doughs are "better", just making a suggestion based on Norma's unique constraints. At the same it is plain to see that the pizza I made in 4 hours likely did not suck. Further I think people confuse the idea of extended and/or cold fermentation for home bakers that don't knead or want to with what is typical pro practice. Pro bakers don't need to wait on gluten dev if they don't want to. Additionally, for those using sourdoughs, cold fermentation during bulk may not be ideal.

I feel that the pros of extended fermentation have been exagerated and that pizza makers, when put on the spot, may be reluctant to share their actual practices for fear that people will be dissapointed with the truth (or they want to get people "off the scent" of the actual timeline, techniques and ratios).

[norma427]

What I don't get is that by Norma's own admission no one could really tell the difference when she used a straight dough. Further many of the places that make "great pizza" that Norma mentioned employ the use of a straight, same same dough! These are places run by people you all revere -- not gonna name names though! If it is good enough for these famous pizzerias and even people that insist on cold fermenting and or long ferments love and laud these pizzas, something just doesn't add up. Also Chau freely admits some of his very best pizza was a 3 hour, same day dough. The pic I attached is a 4 hour, same day dough. The pie was inhaled and no one suggested it would have been better if it was an older dough. I listen less to the book writers than I do the people I personally know that run very successful pizzerias. It is the arm chair quarterbacks (with more time and flexibility with their bakes) who mostly push for extended, cold ferments, while pro bakers mostly make same day doughs.

A same day dough, possibly leaveaned with an ADY based liquid levain, to me, would be the pragmatic choice for Norma's use case. All that would be required would be a quick light mix that would take a few minutes early in the day and then and hour later or so a quick balling session, followed by proofing prior to use. Dough that will not be immediately used would get retarded. Additionally, having a dough that is very extensible and has an open crumb when baked is easily accomplished by undermixing/mixing less and handling the dough as little as possible at every point as to not degas it. All of the stuff that Norma wants in her pizza can be achieved with a straight, same day dough -- the only one that would know would be her.

--

Norma, I  love your tinkering nature and enjoy your experiments. My MO is quite simply to help you (if I can) achieve what you want with your dough, not to curb your experimentation. I think what you, Peter and Jim have been doing is awesome!

John,

I am aware that Chau has made great doughs in a matter of hours.  I have seen those pies and they look great.  Your picture you attached of a 4 hour same day dough pizza looks great also.  I don’t understand what an ADY based liquid leavain is.  Is it like a preferment.  If it is how do you go about preparing it in a short while?

Where I really would be concerned about a same day dough is how much earlier would I have to get up in the morning to prepare it and how much longer it would take to control it all day long.  When I wash my utensils, mixer bowl, dough hook, containers and scales on a Monday or Friday, it takes me a fairly long while to just do the clean up.  Since I am getting older, I don’t know if I could handle waking up earlier to prepare the dough earlier.  The day is fairly long for me at my age and usually I don’t get to sit down any all day long, between making pizzas, washing dishes and waiting on customers.  Since Steve doesn’t come until lunch I am the only one doing the work in the morning hours. 

I know you do have a lot of experiences with pizzas and a lot of knowledge about different ways to go about making them.

Thank you for posting you do like my tinkering and experiments and trying to help me make a better dough for market. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I will let Norma respond as she wishes but, with all due respect, I don't think that yeast type/adjustment is the solution with the wide temperature range that Norma has to work with. In Naples, not only is the amount of yeast adjusted, but the amount of flour (which, with the amount of water fixed, adjusts the hydration) and salt are also routinely adjusted over the course of the year, and they look for the best places in the building to better manage the ambient temperatures at which the dough is to be fermented. In Norma's case, I think she would either need a temperature controlled unit that can hold all of her dough balls for the day or she would need an algorithm that tells her how much yeast to use based on the prevailing ambient temperature (based on a reference standard, like a doubling of the dough), and leave to her to make any other needed adjustments. She, in effect, would have to become a Neapolitan pizzaiolo (I mean pizzaiola) by default. I don't think that is what Norma aspires to be. Also, she is not fond of math.

I agree with you that emergency doughs need not produce second class pizzas. I have made them and they are not bad, even though I prefer using longer fermented dough. Norma could make several emergency dough batches throughout the day and use them in 3-4-hour windows. I am not sure that is what she is after, although it would be interesting to see how her customers would react to emergency pizzas, never mind her psyche and sensibilities. I am not even sure if her mixer can handle small batches of dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Not to interrupt the conversation but I just thought of something and figured I should post it before I forget. There is one more test that we can run to get a sense of what is happening in in the soaker, an iodine test. I was reviewing my old biochem text book to get some ideas for lecture and came across this test.  In short, in the presence of starch granules (chains of amylose in particular) a solution of water and iodine will turn a very dark bluish/purple. The more starch present, the darker the color. As the amylose gets broken down into simple sugars (glucose, maltose, fructose, etc) the solution will become lighter in color as the starches break down. This iodine test would allow us to compare the color of the soaker and preferment to a control (just an flour and water slurry) to see how much starch is being broken down into sugar by both methods.

The experiment itself is fairly straightforward. Mix together an small, but equal amounts of flour and water, eg 20 g of both flour and water in a clear glass or plastic vessel. Add a few drops of iodine to the flour and water mixture and stir.

I may head over the drug store today or tomorrow and pick up iodine to test this out. If anyone would like to try this out themselves, let me know. This test not only has applications for the soaker method, but any pizza recipe in general where one wants to see how much starch is being degraded over time.
Jim
 

Jim,

Thanks for posting about the iodine test and explaining what it tells.  That sounds interesting.  I will purchase some iodine to try to do the test.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

I don't think an adequately fermented, fully performant dough is an "emergency dough", just a proper dough. If it was not adequately fermented that would be a different story.

I give up on trying make things simpler for Norma as it is clear I she has too many constraints for my suggestions!