Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 16101 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:23:50 PM »

I must say the “Epoxy Method” with the preferment and soaker worked great with Jim’s formulation. The dough ball seemed to ferment just enough until this afternoon. The dough ball was left out at room temperature of about 83 degrees F for about 1 ½ hrs to warm-up. The dough ball opened so easy and wasn’t sticky at all. The pizza slide off the peel easily and the bake went well. There was good oven spring, decent crust browning, a nice crispness on the bottom crust and the taste of the crust was really good. Steve and I thought the crust had a nice complex flavor better than using other methods. The pizza wasn’t like bread at all.

Thanks Jim for thinking of the “Epoxy Method” for us to try!

I think it made a great pizza.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:24:56 PM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:25:55 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:28:07 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:29:09 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:30:11 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:31:16 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:32:11 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:33:55 PM »

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norma427 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:34:51 PM »

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #31 on:** May 16, 2012, 12:26:13 PM »

Norma,
Your pie looks fantastic. Your crumb and undercarriage look perfect. I'm am glad the formula it worked out and that Steve enjoyed the pizza too. Despite the hassle of making this dough formula (and the tweaks made along the way) I too was very pleased and surprised by flavor and texture of the pie.

I am not sure I mentioned it above but the flour was KAAP and I scaled the dough formula down for a 13 in pie while keeping the same proportions as in the original epoxy formula, as described above. Three doughs in total were made, a straight dough with no preferment, a dough which was hydrated with 127F water and cooled to 73F before the yeast was added, and the epoxy dough. All doughs were refrigerated at 45F for 3.5 days, were held for 3h out of the fridge and baked at 550F.

As you mentioned Norma, the epoxy dough opened up like a dream as did the 127F dough. These twp doughs never bounced back like a high protein dough, but they seemed to have more strength to them then the straight dough.

The toppings on the pies are as follows, the Brussel sprout, tomato sauce and guancale pie is the straight dough. The pie that is topped with the grape tomatoes, anchovies, capers and young pecorino is the 127F dough. The Margherita in the photos below is the epoxy dough.

I was fortunate enough to have several tasters (n=6) at my house for end of the semester cocktails and pizza. Flavor-wise, everyone liked all three doughs. Two of the taster could not tell any differences between the dough but they thought all of the doughs were "...really good". Three of the other tasters favored the epoxy dough and one favored the straight dough b/c of Brussels sprouts and guancale, even though he liked the crust of the epoxy dough better. None of the folks cared for the grape tomato pie b/c it had anchovies on it (which I loved truthfully). So there may be some topping biases skewing the results here.

My own perceptions were that the epoxy dough and the 127F dough were similar in taste and texture. I did think the epoxy dough had a little more flavor than the 127F dough, and the straight dough as well, when comparing pizza bones side by side. This shouldn't imply that the straight dough, which was aged the same amount of time, was not good; its flavor was great as well. I found however, that the flavor of the straight dough was not quite as developed as the other two doughs. It lacked some of the sweet and more complex flavors than the other two doughs. I think because we increase the amount of the soaker used in this formula, as compared with the Sicilian experiemnt, the flavors of the soaker were able to shine through. Also, I think using the higher temp water may have had an effect on dough, but I will most like need to conduct another side by side experiment to find out for sure. All in all, I was pretty pleased with the flavors developed in the epoxy dough.

norma427 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:00:45 PM »

Jim,

All your pies look fantastic!

I really don’t think it that much of a hassle of making the formulation you set-forth when such good results can be achieved. Did you ever hear of anyone using an “Epoxy Method” for pizza dough before without whole grains or whole wheat flour? I also couldn’t believe how easily the dough opened.

Your other method of hydrating the flour with 127 degree F water and then cooling down to 73 degrees F before adding the yeast is also very interesting, especially since you also got such good results with that method.

Your choice of dressings all sound really good and all your pies look tasty with the different dressings!

I also had other taste testers other than Steve and me, and they all thought your method produced a better tasting crust.

I think since the soaker amount was increased it did help a lot compared to the Sicilian experiment.

What are your plans after these experiments? Are you going to try increasing the soaker amount with a preferment or just try again as you did?

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #33 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:17:18 PM »

Norma,
Thanks. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone using this method, at least in the manner that we did for pizza.

Quote

What are your plans after these experiments? Are you going to try increasing the soaker amount with a preferment or just try again as you did?

Actually, I was going to ask you the same question. I am thinking that maybe a pure epoxy formula, consisting of 20% preferment and 80% of the +120F dough, fermented the same amount of time and then mixing the two doughs together the night before, no additional flour or water in the final mix. Although I am also curious about the effects of adding in the hot water to the dough and whether or not there is a noticeable difference in flavor during the short-term (overnight) when compared with a straight dough formula. I am also curious if this method may offer some flavor improvements in other types of pizza formulas, e.g. 00 WFO doughs, pizza bianca/pizzarium, your greek style pizza, etc. Too many different directions. Any thoughts?

norma427 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:34:24 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 16, 2012, 02:17:18 PM

I am thinking that maybe a pure epoxy formula, consisting of 20% preferment and 80% of the +120F dough, fermented the same amount of time and then mixing the two doughs together the night before, no additional flour or water in the final mix. Although I am also curious about the effects of adding in the hot water to the dough and whether or not there is a noticeable difference in flavor during the short-term (overnight) when compared with a straight dough formula. I am also curious if this method may offer some flavor improvements in other types of pizza formulas, e.g. 00 WFO doughs, pizza bianca/pizzarium, your greek style pizza, etc. Too many different directions. Any thoughts?

Jim,

A pure epoxy formulation consisting of 20% preferment and 80% of the 127 degree soaker dough would be interesting. I will leave it up to you to what you want to try next. I also will follow.

I also thought about it, and am curious if these methods might make other flavor improvements in other types of pizzas. You really might be on to something great.

You never know until the experiments are tried out.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #35 on:** May 17, 2012, 03:21:44 PM »

Norma,
Admittedly, I am still as torn where to take this experiment; whether we continue to refine the formula itself for a NY style pie or given our successful results, begin to apply this methodology to other styles of pies.

I know you have voiced interest in adapting this new method for your Sicilian, which we could certainly explore. I too am sort of interested in exploring this in a Sicilian recipe, however, something in the back of my head keeps telling my to try this method with one of my ~~Semolina~~ Durum "Sicilia style" Sicilian doughs recipes. Although a pizzarium style pizza would not be out of the question either. I am also curious if this method could be apply to a Neapolitan dough formula to help extract more flavor from the flour, although I no longer have access to a WFO (a tree fell on my friends newly constructed WFO and put a nice gash in the side and bent the frame).
I guess I see too many new realms to explore. Do you have any preferences where to go next with this method?
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 17, 2012, 05:15:41 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 03:21:44 PM

Norma,
Admittedly, I am still as torn where to take this experiment; whether we continue to refine the formula itself for a NY style pie or given our successful results, begin to apply this methodology to other styles of pies.

I know you have voiced interest in adapting this new method for your Sicilian, which we could certainly explore. I too am sort of interested in exploring this in a Sicilian recipe, however, something in the back of my head keeps telling my to try this method with one of my ~~Semolina~~ Durum "Sicilia style" Sicilian doughs recipes. Although a pizzarium style pizza would not be out of the question either. I am also curious if this method could be apply to a Neapolitan dough formula to help extract more flavor from the flour, although I no longer have access to a WFO (a tree fell on my friends newly constructed WFO and put a nice gash in the side and bent the frame).
I guess I see too many new realms to explore. Do you have any preferences where to go next with this method?
Jim

Jim,

I don’t really care where we take the next experiment. I know I did post on the Sicilian thread that I will be trying something out this week on that thread, but for this thread it is up to you. If you ever want to take the experiment to Neapolitan pies I can try that in Steve’s WFO sometime. If you want to try your Durum “Sicilia style” next, that is okay with me. I also would like to take your method and try it in for a Pizzarium style of pie sometime.

Too many decisions!

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #37 on:** May 17, 2012, 07:16:44 PM »

Norma,
I am perfectly happy making a Pizzarium style pizza. Ill try to get a formula posted shortly. Additionally, based on what other members on the Neapolitan forum have posted for their dough recipes, (and using some probability statistics

) I will try to create an epoxy formula for a Neo- dough too, if you, Steve or any other members want want to try it out.
Jim

JimmyG · « **Reply #38 on:** May 17, 2012, 07:46:25 PM »

Norma,
Below is a pizzarium style epoxy dough hybrid monster formula. I have kept the proportions for the amount of soaker the same as our previous experiment. For the preferment, I followed what Bonci has previously prescribed, 10% by flour weight. I did up the amount of IDY to ensure your bubbling. As for the flours to add in, I will leave that up to you. I did adjust this formula for a 10x15in pan and 4% residual dough in bowl (this may get sticky) for some extra protection. As for they type of flour, I will leave it up to you. I have not figured that far ahead yet. Let me know if you, or anyone else who want to follow along, see any changes that should be made.
Jim

Pizzarium epoxy dough formula

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    383.12 g | 13.51 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (80%):    306.49 g | 10.81 oz | 0.68 lbs
Salt (2.3%):    8.81 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.84 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Oil (2%):    7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (184.7%):   707.62 g | 24.96 oz | 1.56 lbs | TF = 0.1664

Soaker (50% of total dough weight/ Water heated between 120F-135F):
Flour:    176.9 g | 6.24 oz | 0.39 lbs
Water:    176.9 g | 6.24 oz | 0.39 lbs
Total:    353.81 g | 12.48 oz | 0.78 lbs

Preferment (10% of flour weight):
Flour:    19.16 g | 0.68 oz | 0.04 lbs
Water: 19.16 g | 0.68 oz | 0.04 lbs
IDY (.4%) 1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total:    38.31 g | 1.35 oz | 0.08 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    187.06 g
Water: 110.43 g
Salt:    8.81 g
Soaker: 353.81 g
Preferment:    38.31 g
Oil:    7.66 g
Total:    707.62 g | 24.96 oz | 1.56 lbs | TF = 0.1664

norma427 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 17, 2012, 08:58:04 PM »

Jim,

Thanks so much for figuring out a Pizzarium epoxy dough hybrid monster.

I have to see what flours I have on hand or can purchase at the Country Store to try and mix flours for your formulation. I realize the dough might be sticky at 80% hydration. I only have one problem and that is I only have two sizes of steel pans, one being 8”x10” and the other is 12”x17”. How can I figure out your Pizzarium epoxy dough hybrid monster for one of the pans I have?

Maybe some other members might be interested in trying your epoxy method with a Neapolitan dough when you have time to figure out a formulation.

Thanks again for your help!

Norma