Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 16110 times)

JimmyG · « **Reply #40 on:** May 17, 2012, 10:05:45 PM »

Norma,
In essence, I let the preferment calculator do *almost* all the heavy lifting for me. I should warn you there is a little math involved,

but it isnt too bad. Just some subtraction.

First, I figure out my total formula amounts based on my pan size, TF, hydration level, salt, yeast, residual dough in bowl, etc. Which should look something like this:

Total Formula (8x10 in pan):
Flour (100%):    196.25 g | 6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (67%):    131.49 g | 4.64 oz | 0.29 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.83 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.79 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.26 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Oil (2%):    3.93 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    3.93 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (173.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

From there I create two seperate formulas under the preferment formulas box, one for the preferment and one for the soaker; all the while keeping all other variables the same. For past formulas, the recipe has been 10% preferment by total flour weight and 50% soaker by total dough weight (both formulas hydrated at 50%). So in essence, all I am doing to get the amounts is changing buttons were it says, "how would you like your preferment expressed", and changing the numbers where it says "Enter desired preferment amount". The formula for the preferment would be:

Preferment (10% of total flour weight):
Flour:    9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Water:    9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Total:    19.63 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs

The formula for the soaker would look like (50% of total dough weight):
Preferment:

Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

These two formulas are the gram amounts need for my soaker and my preferement. All that is left is to calculate how much flour and water is need for my final dough.

To find how much flour and water is need in my final dough, I subtract the flour and water amounts in the preferment and soaker formulas from the total flour and water amounts which would look like this:

Flour
196.25 - 9.81 - 85.05 = 101.39g of flour in your final dough.

Water:
131.49 - 9.81 - 85.05 = 36.63g of water in your final dough.

From there, I use the total yeast, salt and oil amounts where it seems most appropriate, either in the preferment or final dough. Hope this helps.
If not, let me know and I will calculate out the pan sizes.

Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 17, 2012, 10:18:51 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 10:05:45 PM

Norma,
In essence, I let the preferment calculator do *almost* all the heavy lifting for me. I should warn you there is a little math involved, but it isnt too bad. Just some subtraction.

First, I figure out my total formula amounts based on my pan size, TF, hydration level, salt, yeast, residual dough in bowl, etc. Which should look something like this:

Total Formula (8x10 in pan):
Flour (100%):    196.25 g | 6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (67%):    131.49 g | 4.64 oz | 0.29 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.83 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.79 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.26 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Oil (2%):    3.93 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    3.93 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (173.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

From there I create two formulas under the preferment formulas, one for the preferment and one for the soaker; all the while keeping all other variables the same. For the past formulas, the recipe has been 10% preferment by total flour weight and 50% soaker by total dough weight (both formulas hydrated at 50%). So in essence, all I am doing to get the amounts is change buttons were it says, "how would you like your preferment expressed", and numbers "Enter desired preferment amount". The formula for the preferment would be:
Preferment:
Flour:    9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Water:    9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Total:    19.63 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs

The formula for the soaker would look like:
Preferment:
Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

To find how much flour and water is need in my final dough, I subtract the flour and water amounts in the preferment and soaker formulas from the total flour and water amounts which would look like this:
Flour
196.25 - 9.81 - 85.05 = 101.39g of flour in your final dough.

Water:
131.49 - 9.81 - 85.05 = 36.63g of water in your final dough.

From there, I use the total yeast, salt and oil amounts where it seems appropriate, either the preferment or final dough. Hope this helps.
If not, let me know and I will calculate out the pan sizes.

Jim

Jim,

You make it sound so simple in figuring out the calculations. Since you explained it so well, I will give it a go the next time. Just don’t laugh too hard if I make mistakes.

I actually really don’t like numbers for some reason.

I think I understand from your explanations.

Thanks!

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #42 on:** May 18, 2012, 08:24:22 AM »

Norma,
You're welcome. Let me know if you run into trouble.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #43 on:** May 18, 2012, 06:52:23 PM »

Jim,

I did the dumbest thing today. I brought home my IR gun instead of my pH meter. I sure don’t know what made me do that. $:-\$ I can’t get into market over the weekend so guess will have to wait to do the pH readings until next week.

I wanted to ask you another question though. I purchased some spelt flour today and don’t know what other combination of flours I should try in your Pizzarium style epoxy dough hybrid monster formulation. I had too many errands to do today to get the soaker and preferment mixed earlier today, but will mix them tonight. Do you have any suggestions for the amount of spelt I should use and any advice for other flours I might try?

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #44 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »

Norma,

Quote

I did the dumbest thing today. I brought home my IR gun instead of my pH meter. I sure don’t know what made me do that. Undecided I can’t get into market over the weekend so guess will have to wait to do the pH readings until next week.

No problems. A final pH reading is the most pertinent.

Quote

I wanted to ask you another question though. I purchased some spelt flour today and don’t know what other combination of flours I should try in your Pizzarium style epoxy dough hybrid monster formulation. I had too many errands to do today to get the soaker and preferment mixed earlier today, but will mix them tonight. Do you have any suggestions for the amount of spelt I should use and any advice for other flours I might try?

Just spelt and a white flour seems to be working well on the pizzarium thread. Alternatively, you could mix in rye, semolina, Kumut, or white whole wheat too. While some of the formulas appear to call for a 1:1 ratio of white flour (AP, bread, or whatever you fancy; I personally prefer AP), I would not exceed 20-25% of the total flour weight with with rye, spelt or whole wheat. It just turns out too bready. Semolina/durum and if you can find it, Kumut, alone I would probably not exceed 40% of the total flour weight. But the choice is up to you. If I was to mix the flours, I would most likely use 65% AP, 20% semolina or kumut and 10% spelt, rye or white whole wheat.

Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:46:11 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 18, 2012, 07:20:13 PM

Norma,No problems. A final pH reading is the most pertinent.
Just spelt and a white flour seems to be working well on the pizzarium thread. Alternatively, you could mix in rye, semolina, Kumut, or white whole wheat too. While some of the formulas appear to call for a 1:1 ratio of white flour (AP, bread, or whatever you fancy; I personally prefer AP), I would not exceed 20-25% of the total flour weight with with rye, spelt or whole wheat. It just turns out too bready. Semolina/durum and if you can find it, Kumut, alone I would probably not exceed 40% of the total flour weight. But the choice is up to you. If I was to mix the flours, I would most likely use 65% AP, 20% semolina or kumut and 10% spelt, rye or white whole wheat.

Jim

Jim,

There should not be any problems of taking the final pH reading, because the pH meter is at market. At least I won’t forget to take it to market.

Thanks for telling me just spelt and white flour seems to be working well on the Pizzarium thread. I have KAAP. I also have some Ultragrain, (the durum flour I tried before) and dark rye flour. Thanks for telling me you would not exceed 20-25% of the total flour weight with rye, spelt or whole wheat flours.

I also forgot to ask you if the preferment should just be made with white flour or a blend?

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2012, 08:21:51 PM »

Quote

I also forgot to ask you if the preferment should just be made with white flour or a blend?

It may be interesting to add some to the preferment, but in either case, I think you will get some good results.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #47 on:** May 18, 2012, 09:13:09 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 18, 2012, 08:21:51 PM

It may be interesting to add some to the preferment, but in either case, I think you will get some good results.
Jim

Jim,

I will think about adding some other flour to the preferment and probably will get some interesting results, but haven' worked with a really high hydration dough for awhile.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2012, 02:59:02 PM »

I did make the soaker and preferment for the Pizzarium Epoxy dough last evening. I used KAAP and Spelt in the preferment and KAAP, Spelt, and Ultragrain in the soaker. If anyone want to know the percentages I used in grams I can post that. This picture was taken this afternoon of what they both look like. The preferment does look like it is fermenting some. They both smell great!

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #49 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:26:45 AM »

Norma,
The Ultragrain sounds like a smart choice for a Pizzarium pie. Were you using the white whole wheat or all purpose Ultragrain?

norma427 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 20, 2012, 09:30:10 AM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 20, 2012, 08:26:45 AM

Norma,

Were you using the white whole wheat or all purpose Ultragrain?

Jim,

I used the Ultragrain white whole wheat flour. For the preferment I used 1.96 grams (20% spelt) and 7.85 grams of KAAP. For the soaker I used 17.01 grams 20% spelt, 1.701 2% Ultragrain white whole wheat and 66.339 grams 78% KAAP. I tasted the soaker this morning and it really has a sweet taste. The preferment really isn’t doing much of anything again, but will take care of that tomorrow.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:11:02 AM »

I went to market this morning and pick-up the pH meter and was ready to make my final dough and now think I have a problem. I know I copied and printed Jim’s directions how to calculate the soaker and preferment at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg188006.html#msg188006 but now think they were just the directions to how to calculate. I think I see now I should have made the amount of preferment and soaker in Jim’s “Epoxy” formulation at Reply 38 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg187985.html#msg187985 My amount of preferment and soaker will now be wrong for that final dough. Does anyone know which way I should proceed next? I don’t think I will be able to fix what I did wrong.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #52 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:31:38 AM »

Your dough will still be alright Norma. No worries. The formula amount of the preferment and soaker will be less, but no big deal. To find the new final dough amounts we again can use subtraction.

In the Pizzarium epoxy dough, the total flour and water amounts were:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%): 383.12 g | 13.51 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (80%): 306.49 g | 10.81 oz | 0.68 lbs
Salt (2.3%): 8.81 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.84 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
IDY (.4%): 1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Oil (2%): 7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (184.7%): 707.62 g | 24.96 oz | 1.56 lbs | TF = 0.1664

In the example for calculating the preferment and soaker and we used:

Preferment (10% of total flour weight):
Flour: 9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Water: 9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Total: 19.63 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs

The formula for the soaker would look like (50% of total dough weight):
Preferment:

Flour: 85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water: 85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total: 170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

By subtraction, we again can find the new flour and water quantities needed in our final dough.

Flour: 383.12 - 85.05 - 9.81 = 286.26
Water: 306.49 g- 85.05 - 9.81 = 211.63

The total amount of flour need in the final dough is roughly 286 g and the amount of water needed is 212 g. For the amount of salt and oil, just refer to the pizzarium formula totals.
So no worries, it is all good.

Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #53 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:44:18 AM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 21, 2012, 09:31:38 AM

Your dough will still be alright Norma. No worries. The formula amount of the preferment and soaker will be less, but no big deal. To find the new final dough amounts we again can use subtraction.

In the Pizzarium epoxy dough, the total flour and water amounts were:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%): 383.12 g | 13.51 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (80%): 306.49 g | 10.81 oz | 0.68 lbs
Salt (2.3%): 8.81 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.84 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
IDY (.4%): 1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Oil (2%): 7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (184.7%): 707.62 g | 24.96 oz | 1.56 lbs | TF = 0.1664

In the example for calculating the preferment and soaker and we used:

Preferment (10% of total flour weight):
Flour: 9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Water: 9.81 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs
Total: 19.63 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs

The formula for the soaker would look like (50% of total dough weight):
Preferment:

Flour: 85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water: 85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total: 170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

By subtraction, we again can find the new flour and water quantities needed in our final dough.

Flour: 383.12 - 85.05 - 9.81 = 286.26
Water: 306.49 g- 85.05 - 9.81 = 211.63

The total amount of flour need in the final dough is roughly 286 g and the amount of water needed is 212 g. For the amount of salt and oil, just refer to the pizzarium formula totals.
So no worries, it is all good.

Jim

Jim,

I don’t know how I made that stupid mistake of not using the Pizzarium style epoxy dough hybrid monster formula. I must have thought I just need to follow the directions that you gave me and didn’t give another thought about the original formulation you set-forth for me. When I went to mix the final dough it hit me that the amount of flour and water didn’t look like enough.

Thanks so much for explaining how to straighten out the mess I made!

I thought I might just have to chuck my “epoxy” experiment this week.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #54 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:50:03 AM »

To be honest with you, I did the same thing yesterday when I mixing up the preferment and soaker

. Although I went back and increase the amounts of each after recognizing that I was following the Sicilian formula.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:56:11 AM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 21, 2012, 09:50:03 AM

To be honest with you, I did the same thing yesterday when I mixing up the preferment and soaker . Although I went back and increase the amounts of each after recognizing that I was following the Sicilian formula.
Jim

Jim,

At least you recognized what you did wrong before making the final dough.

I think after I get straightened out what to do I will hopefully get better.

Next week I might also try out my Lehmann dough with your method.

Good luck with your bake!

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:45:32 AM »

The Pizzarium final dough was mixed and I am working on shaping the dough now. The preferment didn’t bubble much, as can be seen in the first picture, so it was placed in the oven with the light on. The soaker pH was 6.31 and the final dough pH was 5.83. The dough was way to sticky with the oil added, so I did have to add more flour when mixing. I don’t know what hydration the oil made the dough, but it was almost like batter. I did add KAAP, Spelt and Ultragrain flour to the final dough.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:47:08 AM »

The soaker felt strong after 3 days.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #58 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:48:11 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #59 on:** May 21, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »

This is how the Pizzarium “epoxy” dough ball looks like after it was shaped.

Norma