Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 15276 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #80 on:** May 23, 2012, 06:29:24 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 23, 2012, 06:07:52 PM

You numbers are right on.

Jim

Jim,

Lol, I can't believe the numbers are right.

Thanks for checking them.

Maybe I will be able to do the calculations for myself after a few tries. Thanks so much for your help and also the different dough calculating tools. Without both you and those tools, I sure wouldn't have been able to do anything.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #81 on:** May 25, 2012, 07:50:43 PM »

Late this morning I mixed the preferment and soaker for the Pizzarium “Epoxy” Dough. When I returned from market and running errands the preferment is already bubbling. I sure don’t know but think using 1.93 grams of IDY in the preferment is a lot. The soaker dough hydrated very fast and was very strong. I used hot water at 116.6 degrees F for the soaker. I don’t know what I will do if the preferment bubbles too much until Monday. I guess I should have only used part of the IDY in the preferment and the rest in the final dough. I guess my numbers weren't right after all.

I used KAAP, Spelt, and Ultragrain flours in the preferment and soaker.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #82 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:48:35 AM »

I didn’t have my pH meter at home, but brought it home from market yesterday. I took the pH of the soaker this morning and the pH is 6.27. It can be seen on the soaker picture how strong the gluten in the soaker is. It also can be seen in one picture how much the preferment has bubbled. It appears like the soaker is bubbling some also, but don’t know if that is from wild yeast, or if it just was from mixing. I did taste the soaker and it is very sweet tasting.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #83 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:52:33 AM »

First picture is of the soaker and preferment together. Second picture is of how strong the gluten appears to be in the soaker.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #84 on:** May 27, 2012, 04:02:30 PM »

I took the pH numbers of the preferment and the soaker today. These are the pH numbers.

Pizzarium “epoxy” dough pH numbers
Soaker 6.12
Preferment 5.16

If any is interested in seeing the other pH numbers of the other two“epoxy doughs”, they are at Reply 335

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg189187.html#msg189187

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #85 on:** May 28, 2012, 12:02:21 PM »

At Reply 356 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg189326.html#msg189326 I posted the final dough pH numbers all in one place and what method I used for mixing if anyone is interested.

These are just the pictures of the process so far for this thread for the Pizzarium attempt.

Norma

johnnydoubleu · « **Reply #86 on:** May 29, 2012, 01:16:23 AM »

Fun guys!

@JimmyG what do you feel are the advantages of your/this approach? More sugar creation and greater dough strength?

It is so fascinating to me that vastly different approaches can create very similar dough (performance) and finished crusts (crumb etc.).

Update: I watched Reinhart's TED talk ( http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_reinhart_on_bread.html ) which discussed the epoxy method a little. Interesting.

norma427 · « **Reply #87 on:** May 29, 2012, 06:38:51 AM »

John,

Thanks for the link to the video. Interesting that Peter Reinhart dicussses in the video that the soaker releases the sugars trapped in the starch.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #88 on:** May 29, 2012, 10:48:24 PM »

John,
As Norma said, thanks for the link. It was interesting to watch and kind of reaffirms what we have been find regarding the sugar content and possibly the flavors we have been experiencing. I think the advantages of this method (and Norma may want to comment as well with her experiences): are a very quick hydration of the dough when using hot water, the dough and final crust obtains a sweet and almost nutty flavor with the addition of the large amount of soaker/mash we are using (50% by total dough weight), the dough opens up easy as can be. In fact, I made a grandma style tonight (in my opinion one of the hardest styles to shape and perfect) and it fell into place virtually effort free. I need to start timing these bakes but I think it may be browning a little fast too but don't quote me on this. The main disadvantage is that it's a little tricky to calculate the formula, just ask Norma about both our goof-ups last week. It is a few extra steps to make, and it did produce a denser crust in some of our pies. Although judging by Norma's Lehmann results, we may have amended this problem by lowering the water temp.
JG

norma427 · « **Reply #89 on:** May 30, 2012, 10:29:37 AM »

Jim,

I agree with you about the very quick hydration and how easily all the epoxy dough open. I also agree it is tricky to calculate the epoxy formulas, especially for someone like me that is so bad in math.

I think we might have amended the problem of the denser crumb with your suggestion to use a lower water temperature for the soaker.

Good to hear your Grandma’s dough shaped so easily.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #90 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:12:07 AM »

The Pizzarium epoxy attempt went okay. I think the dough might have proofed too much in the steel pan, because I had wanted to bake it sooner, but had to go home for a little. The dough ball opened up really easy, with minimal flour, even though the dough felt very sticky in the plastic container. I used my arm to drape the skin over to get it into the steel pan and Steve held the steel pan close to the skin and my arm. Even though about the same amount of oil was used in the steel pan, as my other Sicilian pizzas, the bottom crust didn’t get crisp at all. There was good oven spring and a great taste in the crust. I think this crumb was also softer than any other crumbs I had made before as I posted about on the Sicilian thread. When I took a bite it just melted in my mouth. I sure don’t know why that was. The pizzas was so floppy that Steve and I sure had a hard time getting it out of the steel pan.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #91 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:13:48 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #92 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:15:08 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #93 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:16:08 AM »

Norma

parallei · « **Reply #94 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:53:05 AM »

VERY nice Norma. Love that last crumb shot.

norma427 · « **Reply #95 on:** May 30, 2012, 02:50:46 PM »

Quote from: parallei on May 30, 2012, 11:53:05 AM

VERY nice Norma. Love that last crumb shot.

Paul,

Thanks!

I don’t know if it is possible, but think the crumb might have been too soft.

Norma

johnnydoubleu · « **Reply #96 on:** May 30, 2012, 04:56:36 PM »

@Norma what have been the advantages that you've found (to using the epoxy method)? Disadvantages?

@all I can't help but think that if you are willing to be patient, just giving dough enough time to do its thing works just as well as forcing things with something like the epoxy method. I have no problem getting tender, open crumb and highly extensible doughs. Still though, the experimenter in me is gonna have to give this a whirl sometime soon so I can check it out first hand!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #97 on:** May 30, 2012, 06:45:42 PM »

Quote from: johnnydoubleu on May 30, 2012, 04:56:36 PM

@all I can't help but think that if you are willing to be patient, just giving dough enough time to do its thing works just as well as forcing things with something like the epoxy method. I have no problem getting tender, open crumb and highly extensible doughs.

John,

Maybe you have read this before but as discussed at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg178948/topicseen.html#msg178948, Norma's situation at market is unique, with limited options because of the rules and restrictions imposed upon her by the folks who run the market. The epoxy method is just another possible option that might be workable within the ambit of such rules and restrictions. However, even then it is not clear whether Norma would have enough room in her deli case, which is kept on over the weekend, to store all of the preferment/soaker dough for a full production quantity, along with all of the other stuff Norma keeps in the deli case, like cheeses and sodas. Previously, Norma has indicated that she would not have enough room in her deli case for a full amount of dough for her Tuesday production.

Peter

JimmyG · « **Reply #98 on:** May 30, 2012, 07:20:29 PM »

Quote

The Pizzarium epoxy attempt went okay. I think the dough might have proofed too much in the steel pan, because I had wanted to bake it sooner, but had to go home for a little. The dough ball opened up really easy, with minimal flour, even though the dough felt very sticky in the plastic container. I used my arm to drape the skin over to get it into the steel pan and Steve held the steel pan close to the skin and my arm. Even though about the same amount of oil was used in the steel pan, as my other Sicilian pizzas, the bottom crust didn’t get crisp at all. There was good oven spring and a great taste in the crust. I think this crumb was also softer than any other crumbs I had made before as I posted about on the Sicilian thread. When I took a bite it just melted in my mouth. I sure don’t know why that was. The pizzas was so floppy that Steve and I sure had a hard time getting it out of the steel pan.

Norma,
Your pizza does have some beautiful oven spring, the hole structure looks great too. However, I did experience the same soft result this yesterday with my crusts as well, so it was not just you. I think I may have mentioned something about this as a concern this weekend when I mixed up the dough. It felt softer or something was different than before. For the most part I followed the same formula we had been using too with the exception of lowering the water temp (and I made on grandma style pizza, which was actually a little tougher than usual???). Do you have any thoughts on what is going on? Was thinking it could be b/c we lowered the water temp maybe but not entirely sure? I was much happier though with my oven spring. Not nearly as dense.

Sorry, I haven't had too much time this week with the holiday and all to comment much. I will try to get some photos and a write up of my results soon.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #99 on:** May 30, 2012, 08:42:45 PM »

Quote from: johnnydoubleu on May 30, 2012, 04:56:36 PM

@Norma what have been the advantages that you've found (to using the epoxy method)? Disadvantages?

@all I can't help but think that if you are willing to be patient, just giving dough enough time to do its thing works just as well as forcing things with something like the epoxy method. I have no problem getting tender, open crumb and highly extensible doughs. Still though, the experimenter in me is gonna have to give this a whirl sometime soon so I can check it out first hand!

John,

The only disadvantages so far are doing the calculations because I am bad at math, just related to me in finding the right amount of IDY so the preferment part develops enough after three days, and of course having a preferment and soaker to deal with.

The advantages I have seen so far are all the doughs are very easy to open, the taste of the crumb is good, the crumb is moist, the Lehmann NY style epoxy dough pizza had a nice crispness to the bottom crust and even if the dough at first felt a little sticky, after it was floured minimally it still didn’t stick to the wooden peel.

I agree good results can also be produced with giving the dough enough time to work by itself, but still even with all the experiments I have done so far, didn’t get the results I have gotten with using the epoxy methods. Maybe I haven’t done enough experiments to really know.

I hope you also join us since you are also an experimenter and see what you think.

Norma