Norma's epoxy dough

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[JimmyG]

Norma,
Let me just say, holy smokes... every one of those pies looks beautiful, regardless of the method used. Excellent job, through and through.

I'm so glad to hear that the epoxy method worked out so well with a natural starter under the heat of a WFO.   To be honest, I did not know what sort of outcome this method would produce in a WFO, but it appears this method is pretty versicle, and can add in a nice boost of flavor to any dough too.  Did you notice any differences in performance or texture between the two doughs?

Jim

[norma427]

Norma,
Let me just say, holy smokes... every one of those pies looks beautiful, regardless of the method used. Excellent job, through and through.

I'm so glad to hear that the epoxy method worked out so well with a natural starter under the heat of a WFO.   To be honest, I did not know what sort of outcome this method would produce in a WFO, but it appears this method is pretty versicle, and can add in a nice boost of flavor to any dough too.  Did you notice any differences in performance or texture between the two doughs?

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for your kind comments. 

I also wondered how the epoxy method would work under the heat of a WFO.  Steve doesn’t run his WFO as hot as some members here on the forum.  He has found for his WFO he likes temperatures of around 800 degrees F, (or a little higher or lower) and those temperatures will produce the best pies without burning the bottoms.  Since he has a higher dome than some of the members on the forum, maybe that is why a little lower temperature works well for him.  I think both of my pies were baked at around a little under 800 degrees F.  It is hard to maintain the same temperature in a WFO.  Steve and his friend Bob are building a mobile WFO unit in an old Airstream trailer.  Is that every cool looking.    That WFO is a smaller Forno Bravo WFO with a lower dome.   When they get finished doing all the renovations and do some bakes, I will try to sneak in an epoxy dough.  I have pictures of Steve and Bob’s build for their mobile WFO, but don’t know if Steve would want me to post pictures of them. 

I can’t really compare my results accurately with both pies, because I used Bova 00 flour (in the non epoxy pie, and I never used that flour before), but I believe the hydration could be upped a little in an epoxy dough.  The dough ball didn’t feel dry and handle beautifully, but I guess that is just what I think.  I don’t make a lot of Neapolitian doughs, but usually use around 60% hydration.  The Bova 00 dough ball felt a little wetter, but not too wet.  I really don’t know what the protein content of the Bova 00 flour is.  Another thing I found interesting is I used a lower salt amount in the basic formulation than I usually do, and for the epoxy pie that seemed to be just right, but for the Bova 00 flour pie, it seemed like it could have used a little more salt.  Different people at Steve’s home last evening commented that they thought the epoxy pie was sweeter and had a better taste, so it just wasn’t me that had the same thoughts. 

I think you have a winner in using an epoxy dough the whole way around, but more experiments will have to be done to see what kind of results we can get.

Norma

[norma427]

The soaker was still strong this morning when it was incorporated into the final dough.  The only thing I am not to sure about is the final dough felt a little sticker than the hydration. 

Norma

[JimmyG]

Last Friday, I decided to mix up a new soaker and preferment before I left for the weekend–which I why I haven’t posted the formula yet. At the time, I was not sure what style of pies I wanted to create (e.g. round, grandma, sicilian, tabisca etc), only that I wanted to make a durum dough.  Given my indecisiveness, I plugged in a generic formula for three 14in pies (TF = 0.1) to allow myself some latitude to explore other styles if I desired, and to modify the final dough formula if I wished.    

Several observations were made upon mixing up the soaker. Initially the durum flour was very wet, tacky and lacked the strength that is apparent in KAAP flours soakers. After about 1h cooling down on the counter, conditions had not changed. At this point I was not necessarily concerned, I knew that durum has a lower gluten content than other wheats, but I was very surprised that this mixture wasn’t thicker than it was.  Typically, I use a hydration level between 70-72% for 50/50 durum mixes, however, based on previous results with higher hydration epoxy formulas and the texture of this soaker, I knew that I would need to drop my hydration level. When I arrived back in town on Sunday afternoon, I decided to pull back my hydration level to 68%. The following formula below was used to create my final doughs.

Flour (100%): 693.13 g  |  24.45 oz | 1.53 lbs
Water (68%): 471.33 g  |  16.63 oz | 1.04 lbs
Salt (2%):    13.86 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
Total (170%):   1178.32 g | 41.56 oz | 2.6 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   392.77 g | 13.85 oz | 0.87 lbs

Preferment (20% total flour weight):
Flour (KAAP):    69.31 g | 2.44 oz | 0.15 lbs
Water (Temp 78F):    69.31 g | 2.44 oz | 0.15 lbs
Total:    138.63 g | 4.89 oz | 0.31 lbs

Soaker (50% total dough weight):
Flour (Durum): 294.58 g | 10.39 oz | 0.65 lbs
Water (Temp 125F): 294.58 g | 10.39 oz | 0.65 lbs
Total:    589.16 g | 20.78 oz | 1.3 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour (KAAP): 329.24 g
Water: 107.44 g
Salt: 13.86 g
Soaker: 589.16 g
Preferment: 138.63 g

To mix the final dough I decided to use the food processor for two reason, 1) I was feeling lazy, 1) the dough was cold after resting at room temp for an hour, and 2) given the lack strength in the soaker and that it accounted for 50% of the total dough weight, I knew I would need some extra muscle to develop the final dough. The final dough mixed and pulsed in the food processor for approximately 30 sec till the dough homologous and a moderate amount of gluten was developed. The final dough temp after processing was 74.6F.   The final dough was refrigerated overnight at 42F in bulk.
   
Yesterday afternoon, 3h prior to baking, the dough was taken out of the fridge, and divided into three doughs. I decided I wanted to make one grandma style pie (approximately 450g in a 10 x 15in pan) and two round pies (approximately 340g each).
The oven was preheated at 550F for approximately 75 mins.  
   
Similar to previous epoxy doughs, the durum dough balls were a little tacky, but were a breeze to open up. The dough balls all had decent strength to them, however they were not quite as strong as the AP doughs. In retrospect, I think the 68% hydration level for this mix is the upper limit for this dough and it could easily be brought down to 65-66% to add a little more strength to it. The bake time for the doughs was about a minute, minute-and-a-half longer than previous pies, approximately 7.5 to 8 minutes.
 
The end product surpassed my expectations. The pies brown beautifully, the oven spring was great and the texture was moderately chewy, slightly soft, and moist with a nice crisp crust. The flavor of the crust had me smiling with every bite from the tip to the bones of the pizza. The crust tasted mildly sweet, a little buttery, with a durum nuttiness to it and did not taste bready by any means.  This was certainly the best tasting durum crust I have made to date.

*The toppings were:
Grandma - mix of mozzarella and young pecorino, a fresh tomato sauce, and oregano.

Round pie: sausage, Brussel sprouts, mozzarella, and Sambuca.

Rianata: chopped tomatoes, garlic, anchovies, chili flakes, young pecorino, aged pecorino, and oregano.

[JimmyG]

Round pie 1

[JimmyG]

Rianata

[norma427]

Jim,

Very good thinking on your part to pull back the hydration level to 68%.  

Great to hear the end products in all 3 of your pies surpassed your expectations.    I am glad that the flavor of the crust had you smiling with ever bite from the tip to the bones and they were the best tasting durum crusts you have made to this date.  You did a great job on all 3 of your pies.    They look amazing. Your choices of dressings sound and look very good too.

Congrats on such a great job using your "epoxy method".  

Norma

[norma427]

The experiment with the soaker dough pizza turned out well yesterday.  The taste of the rim and whole slice is better than using a one day cold ferment.  Steve and I both agreed on that.  The crumb is moist, there is decent oven spring and decent bottom crust browning.  We reheated some slices after they sat out for about 3 hrs. and they reheated well and have the same taste as when baked fresh.  I really don’t think the preferment with the soaker made any difference, than using the soaker without the preferment.  There is something really different about the taste in the crust when using Jim's methods. 

 I am not sure of what I really want to do though, because I gave my one friend (that usually purchases many slices of pizza early in the evening) a slice of the soaker dough pizza.  He preferred the regular one day ferment for the Lehmann dough pizza, even though he doesn‘t know it is a one day cold day ferment..  He has purchased my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and other experiments I have done with the Lehmann dough and he can’t tell the difference in those pizzas, but can tell the difference in the soaker pizza I made yesterday.

I think the soaker dough pizza is really good and much better than the pizzas I am currently making for market, but don’t know what my other customers would think.

If anyone wants me to post the print outs for the formulation I used for the Lehmann dough with the soaker, I can post those print outs.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Last picture is of a slice sitting out after a few hours.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you don't mind, I would like to see the dough formulation you used for the latest pizza. If you can, it would also be helpful if you can summarize the steps, including timelines, that you took to make the dough. That way, the formulation and the techniques will be in one place.

It will perhaps help you if you can avoid the preferment part of the exercise, if only to simplify things, including the math. Taking the preferment variable out of the occasion might also allow you to experiment more (if you are of that mind) with different amounts of soaker that might be used and their effects on the final results. The math for such experiments would be quite simple.

In a way, you are on the horns of a dilemma since you like the results that you got using the soaker whereas your customers might not be as excited. It would be interesting to know how the pizza would taste if it were reheated say, a day later. If the crust passes that test, then maybe you could gradually work the soaker Lehmann pizza into your lineup, to allow your customers to gradually get accustomed to the soaker crust. That might also give more time for you to hear of complaints or customer preferences or other feedback. You don't have to tell the customers which version they are getting.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you don't mind, I would like to see the dough formulation you used for the latest pizza. If you can, it would also be helpful if you can summarize the steps, including timelines, that you took to make the dough. That way, the formulation and the techniques will be in one place.

It will perhaps help you if you can avoid the preferment part of the exercise, if only to simplify things, including the math. Taking the preferment variable out of the occasion might also allow you to experiment more (if you are of that mind) with different amounts of soaker that might be used and their effects on the final results. The math for such experiments would be quite simple.

In a way, you are on the horns of a dilemma since you like the results that you got using the soaker whereas your customers might not be as excited. It would be interesting to know how the pizza would taste if it were reheated say, a day later. If the crust passes that test, then maybe you could gradually work the soaker Lehmann pizza into your lineup, to allow your customers to gradually get accustomed to the soaker crust. That might also give more time for you to hear of complaints or customer preferences or other feedback. You don't have to tell the customers which version they are getting.

Peter

Peter,

The summary of what I did for the last soaker Lehmann dough was the water for the soaker was heated to 118.4 degrees F.   I know that in a very short while the water temperature can drop, as I watched ithe water temperature drop while in another plastic container, so I am really not sure of the exact temperature when it went in with the Kyrol flour.  The soaker (flour and water) were mixed vigously for few minutes, then left out at room temperature for an hour.  The soaker was then put into the refrigerator until Monday morning, when I mixed the final dough.  I mixed the soaker on Friday morning, so it was about 3 days that the soaker stayed in the refrigerator.  The formulation I used for the Lehmann soaker dough is below.

I also think it would be a lot easier if the preferment part of the exercise can be avoided, for the math part and also more mixing and trying to decide how much yeast to use in the preferment to have it exactly ready for Monday.  Using just a soaker is simple enough for the math part.  I would like to experiment more with different amounts of soaker.  What do you have in mind?

 I know I am in another dilemma since I liked the results of the soaker.  It was just up to me I would try a 5 dough ball batch out for this coming week.  Since I don’t know how my customers will like a soaker Lehmann pizza, it is hard to know what to do.  I could make a 5 dough ball batch, to see if larger amounts of the soaker are the same in a Lehmann pizza and even give my regular customers some slices to see what they think, but I don’t know about some regular customers that don’t come every week.  I didn’t save a slice to reheat for today, but thought it was a good sign that the slices Steve and I reheated tasted the same as fresh slice right out of the oven.  That way if a customer took home a whole pizza and reheated it I would think it would stay the same.  I don’t know if my regular customers would ever get to like the soaker pizzas.  I guess that is to be seen.   I only asked my one customer yesterday to try a slice, but find it funny that he can’t tell any differences in the experiments I made with the Lehmann dough or even when I used the preferment Lehmann dough, but could tell a difference in the soaker slice.  Maybe it was even telling him I was trying another experimental pizza, but he has been a customer of mine since I opened my pizza stand.  I sure don’t want to get him upset when he purchases pizzas every week. 

Norma

[norma427]

Forgot to attach the formulation.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma