Norma's epoxy dough

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Peter’s idea to try the “entire enchilada” method with the Kyrol flour worked out well, with one minor hitch.  As I posted in my last post, I never try to use much bench flour in opening any dough balls and this one was not an exception, even if the dough ball is tacky or sticky.  The dough ball opened up like a breeze, just like the other dough balls on this thread.  Whenever I am trying an experimental pie, or a dough that is higher in hydration, I always make sure to do the shake, shake, thingy on the peel before the pizza goes into the oven, to make sure the skin isn’t sticking anywhere.  I asked Steve if the skin was sticking anywhere because he applied the cheese and was going to slide the pizza into the oven.  Steve said we will see right when he went to slide the pizza in.  Well, it was sticking a little in one place so the pie didn’t get round.  The final pizza did get a little more oven spring than the one using the 50% soaker and GM Full Strength flour.  The bottom crust also browned nicely, but a little bit different than when using the 50% soaker method and using GM Full Strength flour.  The crumb was moist and there was a good taste in the crust.  The bottom crust was about the same in crispness though.  I also didn’t give any of these slices to any of my taste testers, because we didn’t have time and I also needed a few more slices to sell.  I did save a slice for a reheat today though.  Steve said he liked the taste of the crust better using the “entire enchilada” method, but I am not sure about that.  I really didn’t have enough time to think about it because I had to eat my slice quicker than I had wanted to.  Using both of these methods seems to produce a pizza that might have tasted like a real NY style pizza made many years ago, but I can’t be sure of that because I never tasted a NY style pizza made many years ago.

Dropping the water temperature some on both of these experiments didn’t seem to change the results in the final pizzas.  I used regular warm well water right from my kitchen faucet for both of these doughs.  My well water is very hard.

Thanks goodness I am not at market today when the temperatures are supposed to be in the high 90’s.  It was hot enough at market yesterday being in front of that oven.   

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

The two slices I brought home for the reheat.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It looks like both of your pizzas turned out well. By any chance, did any of your regular customers notice or comment on the pizzas made with the soakers?

As far as the crust coloration is concerned, I think it is because of the increased residual sugars that were created by enzyme performance and the participation of the simple sugars in the Maillard reactions. Also, since you added sugar to your dough formulation, that sugar quite likely remained intact during the period of refrigeration and maybe were caramelized to a degree during baking. Ordinary sugar (sucrose) is a disaccharide, and to break it down you normally need either heat, an acid or an enzyme intended for that purpose. I'm not sure whether using warm water to form the soaker would be sufficient to break down the sucrose into glucose and fructose. If the sucrose was added to the warm water, maybe that would work, but maybe not if the sugar is mixed in with the flour and other dry ingredients. Also, since there was no yeast in the soaker, there would be no material acid production to help break down the sucrose.

The differences in taste between the two pizzas that you and Steve experienced might have been because you used two different flours--the GM Full Strength and the Kyrol. The only way to resolve this possibility is to do more experimentation with the two flours. Also, the two soakers you used were not identical. You could do a series of pizzas using the 50% soaker and follow that with a series of pizzas using the "whole enchilada" method and see which you, Steve, your taste testers and customers prefer, if either. For these tests if you decide to do them you might want to stick to one flour.

Did you prefer one or the other of the two doughs from a preparation and/or management standpoint?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

It looks like both of your pizzas turned out well. By any chance, did any of your regular customers notice or comment on the pizzas made with the soakers?

As far as the crust coloration is concerned, I think it is because of the increased residual sugars that were created by enzyme performance and the participation of the simple sugars in the Maillard reactions. Also, since you added sugar to your dough formulation, that sugar quite likely remained intact during the period of refrigeration and maybe were caramelized to a degree during baking. Ordinary sugar (sucrose) is a disaccharide, and to break it down you normally need either heat, an acid or an enzyme intended for that purpose. I'm not sure whether using warm water to form the soaker would be sufficient to break down the sucrose into glucose and fructose. If the sucrose was added to the warm water, maybe that would work, but maybe not if the sugar is mixed in with the flour and other dry ingredients. Also, since there was no yeast in the soaker, there would be no material acid production to help break down the sucrose.

The differences in taste between the two pizzas that you and Steve experienced might have been because you used two different flours--the GM Full Strength and the Kyrol. The only way to resolve this possibility is to do more experimentation with the two flours. Also, the two soakers you used were not identical. You could do a series of pizzas using the 50% soaker and follow that with a series of pizzas using the "whole enchilada" method and see which you, Steve, your taste testers and customers prefer, if either. For these tests if you decide to do them you might want to stick to one flour.

Did you prefer one or the other of the two doughs from a preparation and/or management standpoint?

Peter

Peter,

The customers that purchased the slices of both pizzas weren’t my regular customers, but did say they liked both pizzas.   

Thanks for explaining why you think bottom crust coloration was because of the residual sugars that were created by enzyme performance and the participation of the simple sugars in the Maillard reactions.  I wonder what would happen if the sugar would be added to warm water.  I guess I did somewhat add the sugar to the warm water in the “entire enchilada” method, but didn’t add it before the other ingredients. 

The tastes in crusts of both pizza were almost the same, which is somewhat of a mystery to me since two different flours were used and two different methods were used.  The GM Full Strength soaker pizza was just a little more tender in the crust (even though the crumb seems a little denser), with a little bit of different bottom crust browning. 

I agree when I do more experiments I should stick to one flour, but right now can’t decide with flour to stick with.  What experiment would you use first and which flour would you use for a 5 dough ball batch? 

I didn’t prefer on or the other of the two doughs from a preparation or management standpoint, but it would take up more space if I used the “whole enchilada” method at market.

Now it has me confused what method and flour to try for 5 dough balls. 

Norma   

[JimmyG]

Norma,
Those are some great looking pies and I am glad you had such good results this week. I do think it would be beneficial however, to take a step back and proceed in an incremental fashion. By this I mean, changing things one step at a time. This process is a little slower, but it strength is that if offer a little better comparison between formulas, to find out what works, what doesn't work or if there is no difference due to alteration in the formula. Additionally, you may want to consider making two or more doughs at a time with each formula. The reason why I like this approach is that it allows you to gauge what flavor and textural differences are due to human error (e.g. shaping the dough, too much or too little toppings, where the dough is positioned in the deck, holding time, bake time, etc) and what differences are due to the change in the formula itself.  I know for myself from this last experiment, since I only had dough ball for each soaker, it was a little more difficult for me to discern what differences were due the formula and what differences were due to my own inconsistencies, e.g. trying to get the crust to brown a little more in the 62% and 50% doughs.

Do you have any thoughts about where you would like to take this next week? Myself, I am thinking either directly comparing either the water temp again, (70F vs 125F) or the addition of the salt to the soaker.   I think both are viable routes.
Jim

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You perhaps already know this, but I think that it bears repeating. First, yeast can only consume simple sugars and, second, if sucrose is used as a source of food for the yeast, it has to be converted from a disaccharide to simple sugars, in this case, glucose and fructose. One of the ways to do that conversion is to use warm water. So, to prove the point, within the last hour I conducted a simple experiment. For the experiment, I took three containers, each with 1/4 cup water, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, and a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) of sucrose (table sugar). The only difference between the three tests was that the water temperatures were different. For the first container, it was 69 degrees F, for the second container it was 95 degrees F, and for the third container it was 120 degrees F. The mixtures in the three containers prehydrated for 10 minutes. So, as a summary, this is what we have:

Container 1: 1/4 cup water at 69 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time
Container 2: 1/4 cup water at 95 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time
Container 3: 1/4 cup water at 120 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time

After 10 minutes, Container 1 showed very little activity. The reason is that a temperature of 69 degrees F was not enough to convert the sucrose to enough simple sugars to feed the yeast. By comparison, Container 2 started to show very noticeable activity after about 7 minutes. It was frothy with foam and active bubbling. So, water at 95 degrees F was enough to cause the sucrose to convert to glucose and fructose to feed the yeast to cause the activity noted. Container 3 started to show noticeable activity after about 8 minutes but it was less active than Container 2. IDY can tolerate a water temperature of around 120-130 degrees if it is mixed in with the flour in a dough formulation and buffered by the flour, but it is not fond of direct contact with water in that temperature range. In fact, there may have been some cell death.

The above experiment shows that heat can be used to convert sucrose to glucose and fructose. So, if in your case you decide to add the sugar (sucrose) to the water used in the soaker formulation, it is perhaps best to do so at a temperature of above about 95 degrees F.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Maillard reactions require reducing (simple) sugars to provide crust coloration. So, if you decide to add the sucrose to all or part of the soaker formula water, I believe that you should end up with sugar that is more in the form of simple sugars than disaccharides. I am not sure how that would play out in terms of crust coloration or other effects. You would perhaps have to conduct several identical tests where you dissolve the water in one set of tests and add it to the flour and other dry ingredients in a second set of tests, and compare the results of the two sets of tests.

I might add that as the day wears on, the mixtures in the three containers should continue to show fermentation activity, although it may take a while for Container 1 to warm up enough at room temperature to convert more of the sucrose to glucose and fructose.

With respect to the flour to use, as you know the Full Strength flour is essentially a bread flour, with a protein content of 12.6% (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf) whereas the Kyrol flour is a high-gluten flour with a protein content of around 14%. Both types of flour can be used to make NY style pizzas so it comes down to personal preference for the most part. Ceteris paribus (to borrow that expression from one of Craig's recent posts ), the Kyrol flour should provide a bit more crust color and crust flavor because of its higher protein content. The crust might also be a bit less tender than a crust based on using the Full Strength flour, because of the higher protein content.

If the "whole enchilada" method poses a problem from a storage standpoint at market, then you might go with one of the regular soaker approaches. I suggested the "whole enchilada" approach mainly to simplify the preparation of the soaker. I also wanted to see if the "whole enchilada" approach behaved as I thought it might based on my analysis of the scientific principles involved. I am happy just to know that the "whole enchilada" approach worked and was not a complete, or even a partial, failure.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
Those are some great looking pies and I am glad you had such good results this week. I do think it would be beneficial however, to take a step back and proceed in an incremental fashion. By this I mean, changing things one step at a time. This process is a little slower, but it strength is that if offer a little better comparison between formulas, to find out what works, what doesn't work or if there is no difference due to alteration in the formula. Additionally, you may want to consider making two or more doughs at a time with each formula. The reason why I like this approach is that it allows you to gauge what flavor and textural differences are due to human error (e.g. shaping the dough, too much or too little toppings, where the dough is positioned in the deck, holding time, bake time, etc) and what differences are due to the change in the formula itself.  I know for myself from this last experiment, since I only had dough ball for each soaker, it was a little more difficult for me to discern what differences were due the formula and what differences were due to my own inconsistencies, e.g. trying to get the crust to brown a little more in the 62% and 50% doughs.

Do you have any thoughts about where you would like to take this next week? Myself, I am thinking either directly comparing either the water temp again, (70F vs 125F) or the addition of the salt to the soaker.   I think both are viable routes.
Jim

Jim,

Thanks for your kind comments on the experimental pies, but I think they might have looked better. 

I know each variable can change something, whether it be mixing time, opening a dough ball, position in the deck oven, how many times the oven door is opened, how many times the pie is rotated, toppings, bake times etc.  Monday I made the same identical batches of doughs for market (regular Lehmann dough batches), but the one batch had Kyrol and KASL mixed.  I sure can’t understand but all the batches (even the ones made with all Kyrol flour) weren’t really anything in the same as my regular pizzas from other weeks in the ways they usually open or browned.  I talked to Steve about this many different times and why stuff happens differently with pizza when the same formulation is used, (but just on different days) and the dough balls when baking aren’t always the same in what the final pizzas look like.  Yesterday. my dough balls opened well and browned better than usual.  Pizza is always a mystery to me.  I mix for the same amount of time and try to ball the same, have about the same final dough temperature, etc.  I am starting to believe that humidity plays a bigger role in how the dough and then final pizzas turns out more than I though before.  Since I am using dough balls at market that are supposed to last from morning until evening and are supposed to make the same kind of pizza though out the day, it would be a little harder for me to gauge exactly how different two sets of dough balls will be made with different flours or methods.  My temperatures at market also widely swing from week to week.   

I already added the salt to the soaker and that didn’t seem to make any differences that I could see.  With using a lower temperature like 70 degrees F, that seems to be too low, but that is up to you. 

What do you want me to do?  Let me know what you planned to do.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

You perhaps already know this, but I think that it bears repeating. First, yeast can only consume simple sugars and, second, if sucrose is used as a source of food for the yeast, it has to be converted from a disaccharide to simple sugars, in this case, glucose and fructose. One of the ways to do that conversion is to use warm water. So, to prove the point, within the last hour I conducted a simple experiment. For the experiment, I took three containers, each with 1/4 cup water, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, and a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) of sucrose (table sugar). The only difference between the three tests was that the water temperatures were different. For the first container, it was 69 degrees F, for the second container it was 95 degrees F, and for the third container it was 120 degrees F. The mixtures in the three containers prehydrated for 10 minutes. So, as a summary, this is what we have:

Container 1: 1/4 cup water at 69 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time
Container 2: 1/4 cup water at 95 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time
Container 3: 1/4 cup water at 120 degrees F, 1/2 teaspoon SAF Red IDY, a "pinch" (1/16 teaspoon) sucrose, 10-min. rehydration time

After 10 minutes, Container 1 showed very little activity. The reason is that a temperature of 69 degrees F was not enough to convert the sucrose to enough simple sugars to feed the yeast. By comparison, Container 2 started to show very noticeable activity after about 7 minutes. It was frothy with foam and active bubbling. So, water at 95 degrees F was enough to cause the sucrose to convert to glucose and fructose to feed the yeast to cause the activity noted. Container 3 started to show noticeable activity after about 8 minutes but it was less active than Container 2. IDY can tolerate a water temperature of around 120-130 degrees if it is mixed in with the flour in a dough formulation and buffered by the flour, but it is not fond of direct contact with water in that temperature range. In fact, there may have been some cell death.

The above experiment shows that heat can be used to convert sucrose to glucose and fructose. So, if in your case you decide to add the sugar (sucrose) to the water used in the soaker formulation, it is perhaps best to do so at a temperature of above about 95 degrees F.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Maillard reactions require reducing (simple) sugars to provide crust coloration. So, if you decide to add the sucrose to all or part of the soaker formula water, I believe that you should end up with sugar that is more in the form of simple sugars than disaccharides. I am not sure how that would play out in terms of crust coloration or other effects. You would perhaps have to conduct several identical tests where you dissolve the water in one set of tests and add it to the flour and other dry ingredients in a second set of tests, and compare the results of the two sets of tests.

I might add that as the day wears on, the mixtures in the three containers should continue to show fermentation activity, although it may take a while for Container 1 to warm up enough at room temperature to convert more of the sucrose to glucose and fructose.

With respect to the flour to use, as you know the Full Strength flour is essentially a bread flour, with a protein content of 12.6% (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf) whereas the Kyrol flour is a high-gluten flour with a protein content of around 14%. Both types of flour can be used to make NY style pizzas so it comes down to personal preference for the most part. Ceteris paribus (to borrow that expression from one of Craig's recent posts ), the Kyrol flour should provide a bit more crust color and crust flavor because of its higher protein content. The crust might also be a bit less tender than a crust based on using the Full Strength flour, because of the higher protein content.

If the "whole enchilada" method poses a problem from a storage standpoint at market, then you might go with one of the regular soaker approaches. I suggested the "whole enchilada" approach mainly to simplify the preparation of the soaker. I also wanted to see if the "whole enchilada" approach behaved as I thought it might based on my analysis of the scientific principles involved. I am happy just to know that the "whole enchilada" approach worked and was not a complete, or even a partial, failure.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad you repeated that yeast can only consume simple sugars and if sucrose is used as a source of food for the yeast, it has to be converted from disaccharide to simple sugars, being glucose and fructose, and one of the ways to do that conversion is to use warm water.  I have problems keeping all of this stuff in my brain.  It is like pizza chemistry overload in my brain.   

I appreciate you doing the tests with IDY, sucrose and different water temperatures.  I can understand that after your tests that when adding sucrose it perhaps would be better to do so at a temperature of above about 95 degrees F.  From your experiment and what I used in the “whole enchilada” it looks like the sugars were converted to glucose and fructose, with the water temperatures I used, but I can’t be sure because my temperature of the “whole enchilada” did fall in temperature after mixing.  Do you think a more reliable approach would be too just rehydrate the yeast and sugar at a temperature of about 100 degrees F, or a little higher, to see what happens. 

Ceteris paribus is out of my league.  I will have to Google that.   

I can try a “whole enchilada”  5 dough ball batch at market with Kyrol flour if you think that would be the next step.  Your analysis of the scientific principles involved in the “whole enchilada” were spot on.  I really didn’t think it would work, but you always seem to know what will work and what won’t work.   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To give you an update on the activity in the three containers, I decided to put the containers aside to see what would happen. After about an hour, the activity in the containers subsided and became dormant, just sitting there doing nothing that I could see. I suspected that perhaps a pinch of sugar was too little to sustain fermentation activity. And, since there was no flour to be converted to food for the yeast, as would happen if the yeast was in a dough, the yeast was likely to go into a coma from starvation. So, I decided to add 1/4 teaspoon more of sugar to each container. The water temperature in all three containers at that time was around 81 degrees F. After about 7 minutes, all three containers came back to life, with obvious fermentation activity. So, it looks like a pinch of sugar was not enough to keep the yeast going. This additional test was useful in my opinion because it showed that the sugar could be converted to simple sugars in a water temperature of around 81 degrees F. Interestingly, the fermentation activity was greatest for Container 2, followed by Container 1 and Container 3. I suspect that that reflected the fact that there were more yeast cells (through propagation) in Container 1 than in the other containers. In practice, I think I would use water above 81 degrees F, just to be on the safe side.

With respect to the "whole enchilada" approach, it is possible that it was all luck, or a lot of it. Actually, failure is often a better teacher than success because the success could have been achieved by luck, in which case you might not learn anything new. Failure forces you to look for explanations and answers. Member November once instructed me on how one might use scientific principles to predict things versus trying all kinds of permutations, as he noted as follows:

This also adds to my discourse of old on how one can use a priori and scientific principles to make predictions concerning dough performance and crust characteristics instead of trying every permutation to achieve a desired product.  In other words, the "pizza making is an art versus science" debate really only exists where science isn't respected.  Sometimes it's fun to experiment, and sometimes it's necessary to experiment so that others may learn the process.  However, there's very little going on in pizza dough that would cause a macroscopic surprise if established biochemical and mechanical principles were first considered. (Reply 71 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.msg66525/topicseen.html#msg66525).

In my case, I chose the former course, even if it might not have worked out because I wasn't smart enough. The failure would have forced my hand.

Since you and Jim have been working hand in hand on this project, I would prefer to defer to the two of you as to the best way to proceed from here, especially since I agree with the methodology Jim has laid out. As a legitimate scientist, he knows much more about testing methodologies than I.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Do you think a more reliable approach would be too just rehydrate the yeast and sugar at a temperature of about 100 degrees F, or a little higher, to see what happens. 

Norma,

I am not sure I fully understand the above quoted question. If you mean as a test as I conducted with yeast and sugar, then yes a temperature of about 100 degrees F would work. If you are referring to the water temperature that you would use for the soaker, I would think that that temperature should also work unless you decide that there is a benefit to using a higher (or maybe lower) temperature. The yeast only comes into play as part of the final mix.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

To give you an update on the activity in the three containers, I decided to put the containers aside to see what would happen. After about an hour, the activity in the containers subsided and became dormant, just sitting there doing nothing that I could see. I suspected that perhaps a pinch of sugar was too little to sustain fermentation activity. And, since there was no flour to be converted to food for the yeast, as would happen if the yeast was in a dough, the yeast was likely to go into a coma from starvation. So, I decided to add 1/4 teaspoon more of sugar to each container. The water temperature in all three containers at that time was around 81 degrees F. After about 7 minutes, all three containers came back to life, with obvious fermentation activity. So, it looks like a pinch of sugar was not enough to keep the yeast going. This additional test was useful in my opinion because it showed that the sugar could be converted to simple sugars in a water temperature of around 81 degrees F. Interestingly, the fermentation activity was greatest for Container 2, followed by Container 1 and Container 3. I suspect that that reflected the fact that there were more yeast cells (through propagation) in Container 1 than in the other containers. In practice, I think I would use water above 81 degrees F, just to be on the safe side.

With respect to the "whole enchilada" approach, it is possible that it was all luck, or a lot of it. Actually, failure is often a better teacher than success because the success could have been achieved by luck, in which case you might not learn anything new. Failure forces you to look for explanations and answers. Member November once instructed me on how one might use scientific principles to predict things versus trying all kinds of permutations, as he noted as follows:

This also adds to my discourse of old on how one can use a priori and scientific principles to make predictions concerning dough performance and crust characteristics instead of trying every permutation to achieve a desired product.  In other words, the "pizza making is an art versus science" debate really only exists where science isn't respected.  Sometimes it's fun to experiment, and sometimes it's necessary to experiment so that others may learn the process.  However, there's very little going on in pizza dough that would cause a macroscopic surprise if established biochemical and mechanical principles were first considered. (Reply 71 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.msg66525/topicseen.html#msg66525).

In my case, I chose the former course, even if it might not have worked out because I wasn't smart enough. The failure would have forced my hand.

Since you and Jim have been working hand in hand on this project, I would prefer to defer to the two of you as to the best way to proceed from here, especially since I agree with the methodology Jim has laid out. As a legitimate scientist, he knows much more about testing methodologies than I.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the update on the activity on your three containers with IDY, sugar and water.  I agree that your experiments were useful to show sugar can be converted to simple sugars in a water temperature of around 81 degrees F. 

I also believe sometimes that failure is a better teacher than success because then something is learned. Thanks for the November’s quote.  Your experiment reminds me of my matzoh dough experiments. 

I will wait and see which way Jim wants me to proceed.  As you already know if I find something I like, then I want to progress to trying to make a larger batch.  I know Jim is a legitimate scientist and wants to see how things work out with his methodology in trying different experiments.

I am ready to test drive the soaker dough pizza for market.

Norma   

[norma427]

Norma,

I am not sure I fully understand the above quoted question. If you mean as a test as I conducted with yeast and sugar, then yes a temperature of about 100 degrees F would work. If you are referring to the water temperature that you would use for the soaker, I would think that that temperature should also work unless you decide that there is a benefit to using a higher (or maybe lower) temperature. The yeast only comes into play as part of the final mix.

Peter

Peter,

Sorry I didn’t explain myself clear enough.  What I mean is if you thought 100 degrees F for the soaker water temperature would work.  I think Jim and I found out the higher water temperatures so far seem to give problems.  I know that the yeast only comes into play in the final mix. 

Norma