Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 15325 times)

JimmyG · « **Reply #440 on:** June 26, 2012, 11:45:59 AM »

Quote

I also wasn’t clear on how long to mix. I didn’t want to over oxidize the dough, but don’t know if I did or not. I don’t know if anyone has any ideas of how to mix when using soakers.

Norma,
I would not worry about dough oxidation. Although I am not really sure what people mean when they talk about dough oxidation (as it seems poorly defined to me), it is something that I would never worry about for the fact that any redox (oxidation-reduction) reaction that is occurring is completely out of our control. Some of the best oxidizing agents are: bromide (in bromated flour), oxygen (everywhere and a part of water), chlorine (in salt), iodine (in salt), nitrogen (in all proteins, in some salts), sulfur (in some salts, excreted by microbes and in molasses, aka mellow mushroom dough formula). I know some folks get worried about dough oxidation, which makes me chuckle a little bit b/c the reaction is going to happen regardless in our doughs unless you are using ultra purified ingredients and mix your dough in a airless vacuum.

Regarding how long to mix the dough, that I am going to defer to more experienced hands (aka you Norma) to know when the dough is properly mixed.

For myself, I just do a series of stretch and folds till the dough feels about right, and than put it in the fridge. Nothing too fancy or technical.

I should note that I have not mixed up my final dough yet. I went to Omaha for the College World series yesterday and sort of ran out of time. Ill get my doughs mixed up this morning however and try to bake them off tomorrow.
Jim

JimmyG · « **Reply #441 on:** June 26, 2012, 03:19:30 PM »

I mixed the two soaker doughs this morning. On first appearance, both soakers were much looser than my previous experiments when higher temp water was added to the soaker. Both containers had little puddles of unabsorbed moisture around the surface of the soaker. Neither soaker had much strength or gluten formation either. In short, they felt like a normal, 100% hydrated, soaker or preferment. I tasted both soakers, the salted soaker was too salty for me taste much of anything. The salt-free soaker tasted a little bland but was moderately sweet.
Mixing went smoothly, no obvious troubles occurred. The final doughs were not as tacky as previous doughs and these dough balls felt like a standard 62% hydration dough ball.

The dough formula used for this recipe was:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    413.01 g | 14.57 oz | 0.91 lbs
Water (62%):    256.06 g | 9.03 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (.4%):    1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.72 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (164%):   677.33 g | 23.89 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   338.67 g | 11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs

Soakers (one with and one without salt; water temp 85F):
Flour:    169.33 g | 5.97 oz | 0.37 lbs
Water:    169.33 g | 5.97 oz | 0.37 lbs
(Salt:    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.72 tsp | 0.57 tbsp )
Total:    338.67 g | 11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    243.67 g | 8.6 oz | 0.54 lbs
Water:    86.73 g | 3.06 oz | 0.19 lbs
IDY (.4%):    1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt:    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.72 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Soaker:    338.67 g | 11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs
Total:    677.33 g | 23.89 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.09

Pete-zza · « **Reply #442 on:** June 26, 2012, 03:22:44 PM »

Jim,

In his book, The Taste of Bread, Prof. Calvel often talked about the effects of oxidation on the dough. What irritated him no end was French bakers who decided to speed up the process of making the dough by using high, aggressive mixer speeds. Moreover, they added the salt toward the end of the mixing/kneading process. Prof. Calvel said the that salt should be added at the beginning of the mixing/kneading process because it is an antioxidant. Like Peter Reinhart, he was also concerned about the effects of high and aggressive mixer speeds and related oxidation effects damaging the carotenoids in flour. According to Prof. Calvel, the carotenoids contribute to the color, aroma and taste of the finished crust.

In Norma's case, being the gentle woman that she is, I do not see her jacking up her mixer speeds to the max. So, whether she adds the salt up front or later may not matter all that much, whether directly or as a brine. However, she may not want to mix/knead the soaker too much so that it doesn't end up being overmixed when she completes the final mix.

Peter

JimmyG · « **Reply #443 on:** June 26, 2012, 06:15:00 PM »

Peter,
I do have a few problems with Calvel's explanation of what is going on in the dough on a molecular level with the bleaching effect, oxygen and salt. A lot of his info, I have found, came from studies in the 50s. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.2740060906/abstract While the info is not bad, technology and are understanding at a molecular level has advanced quite a bit since then, even in the last 20 years. However, I think the mechanism and enzymes responsible for the bleach effect are relatively unimportant, other than to know that long, aggressive mixing has deleterious effects on dough. I guess I find it curious that I hear bread and pizza makers worry about oxidation in their mixing, but not in some of the ingredients the are adding to their dough.

For those that are curious:
http://www.aaccnet.org/meetings/Documents/Pre2009Abstracts/2004Abstracts/a04ma310.htm
http://cerealchemistry.aaccnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/CCHEM.2001.78.1.36?journalCode=cchem
http://cerealchemistry.aaccnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/CCHEM.1998.75.1.85

JimmyG · « **Reply #444 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:45:01 AM »

This morning, after about 18h in the fridge, I made an unusual observation, the dough that did not have salt-brine added to the soaker has double, whereas the dough with the salt brine has not budged. I am not sure if this is due to the salt brine or human error, but I took the dough out of the fridge to warm and see if it can be recovered.

Jim

Ev · « **Reply #445 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:55:06 AM »

I still had two dough balls from the batch I mixed last week. I used one at market yesterday in Normas' deck oven. IIRC, it's six days since I first mixed the soaker, so it's five days since the final mix. I must say that this pie wasn't much different in taste than the ones I baked three days earlier, though as you might expect, I got a bit less crust color. I'm not sure why, but yesterdays pie had a slightly more open crumb.

JimmyG · « **Reply #446 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:21:59 AM »

Steve,
It looks great and that crumb is beautiful. I am kind of curious if you noticed whether or not the soaker still had retained its original strength, since you have now taken the soaker a few days longer than we have? It is reassuring that the soaker can be held up to 5 days in the fridge w/o any major side effects.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #447 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:37:10 AM »

The salt brine soaker dough worked out okay with the higher water temperature. The dough still felt a little higher in hydration, but not bad. The dough ball when opening the skin opened so easily again. The oven spring was okay, the rim was moist, and the bottom crust browned okay. The taste of the crust was good. I think using a higher water temperature in the soaker with a salt brine works out okay. I saved a slice for a reheat later today.

I sure don’t know if this article from Didier Rosada is connected at all with using a soaker with regular flour and pizza dough, but Rosada says in this article to add the salt in the final dough after is mixed for 3-4 minutes on second speed (depending on rotations of mixer) Called “improved mix”. http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_07.htm I still always wonder how much bread dough and pizza dough are related. $:-\$

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #448 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:38:55 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #449 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:40:05 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #450 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:40:58 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #451 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:41:50 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #452 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:42:49 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #453 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:43:47 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #454 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:45:04 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #455 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:47:13 AM »

The no salt soaker made with a higher water temperature also worked out okay. I think the no salt soaker method was better than the salt brine soaker, made with the same water temperature. I reason I think that, is beause the crumb was moister, the oven spring was a little better and somehow the taste of the crust was also a little better. The bottom crust did brown a little differently, but that could have been how much my oven doors were opened and closed. The no salt soaker dough ball also felt a little higher in hydration than it was, and it also opened very easily. As far as I can tell from my experiments, the higher temperature used for both soakers worked well.

Last picture is the two slices for reheats later today.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #456 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:48:07 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #457 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:48:55 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #458 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:49:59 AM »

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #459 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:51:17 AM »

Norma