Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 16109 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #480 on:** June 27, 2012, 04:40:20 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 04:13:00 PM

Thanks to the links to the Papa Gino’s formulations you liked for a reheat. I probably will try the one without the semolina. I will make two identical doughs, one with a no salt soaker and one with just following your formulation. I guess I will make a 14” pizza, since there is no TF in the formulation. What flour do you recommend me to try? The Kyrol or the GM Full Strength.

Norma,

At the time, we did not know the weight of dough that PG used to make a 14" pizza. We learned later that the weight for that size is 16 ounces, plus a bit of cornmeal. So, the thickness factor for the 14" size is 0.10394. In the dough formulation I posted at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404, I apparently correctly guessed 16 ounces so that might be the formulation to try but use all flour (no semolina). As for the flour to use, you might want to go with the GM Full Strength flour, which is bromated and has a protein content of 12.6%, or about the same as the KABF. Another possibility would be to use a blend of the Full Strength and the Kyrol that gives you an overall protein content of 13.2%, which is the value of the protein content of the flour that we believe PG uses (Spring King). You can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to calculate the amounts of the two flours to use. In my case, I used all KABF in the later PG clone, so there is no need to use a blend if you do not want to.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #481 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:00:27 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on June 27, 2012, 04:40:20 PM

Norma,

At the time, we did not know the weight of dough that PG used to make a 14" pizza. We learned later that the weight for that size is 16 ounces, plus a bit of cornmeal. So, the thickness factor for the 14" size is 0.10394. In the dough formulation I posted at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404, I apparently correctly guessed 16 ounces so that might be the formulation to try but use all flour (no semolina). As for the flour to use, you might want to go with the GM Full Strength flour, which is bromated and has a protein content of 12.6%, or about the same as the KABF. Another possibility would be to use a blend of the Full Strength and the Kyrol that gives you an overall protein content of 13.2%, which is the value of the protein content of the flour that we believe PG uses (Spring King). You can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to calculate the amounts of the two flours to use. In my case, I used all KABF in the later PG clone, so there is no need to use a blend if you do not want to.

Peter

Peter,

I will use the formulation at Reply 79 since you guessed correctly the weight of 16 ounces for a 14” Papa Gino’s pizza, but won’t use any semolina, but will coat the dough ball in cornmeal. I also will try to figure out on November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator how to blend the GM Full Strength flour with Kyrol flour to get a overall protein content of 13.2% which is like Spring King.

Thanks!

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #482 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:32:12 PM »

According to this useful ConAgra pdf document, http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf, the Kyrol flour has a protein content of 14%. If you need any help with the Mixed Mass Calculating Tool, let me know. As previously mentioned, the Full Strength flour has a protein content of 12.6%. The target mass is 283.19 grams. The target % is 13.2%.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #483 on:** June 27, 2012, 09:04:26 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on June 27, 2012, 07:32:12 PM

According to this useful ConAgra pdf document, http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf, the Kyrol flour has a protein content of 14%. If you need any help with the Mixed Mass Calculating Tool, let me know. As previously mentioned, the Full Strength flour has a protein content of 12.6%. The target mass is 283.19 grams. The target % is 13.2%.

Peter

Peter,
.
Thanks for the link to the ConAgra pdf document. I will try the Mixed Mass Calculating tool and let you know if I need help. Since you mentioned what the target mass is and the target%, I think I will be able to figure out how much of each flour I will need to use for the blend. I know I did that for 2 flours on the Luigi’s thread before after I had help from Scott123. Since that was a while ago your information now is helpful.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #484 on:** June 28, 2012, 08:23:38 AM »

Peter,

The numbers I got on http://tools.foodsim.com/ for the blend of Full Strength and Kyrol flour to match the Spring King flour were 161.8229 grams of GM Full Strength flour and 121.3671 grams of Kyrol flour. I now wonder how I will figure out how much of each flour to use in the soaker for Papa Gino’s dough. I sure wish I was better with numbers.

I also reheated the two leftover slices of soaker dough pizzas from Tuesday. They sure weren’t like fresh, or slices reheated after a few hours, but they also weren’t tough, leathery, or really chewy like the reheated slices of last week. At least they were somewhat decent. I sure don’t know if since a higher temperature was used for the soaker if that changed the reheat or not.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #485 on:** June 28, 2012, 09:35:51 AM »

Norma,

As I understand it, the total dough batch weight you will be using is 460.4 grams. If you are using a 50% soaker, that comes to 230.2 grams. Half of that, for the soaker, is 115.1 grams of the flour blend. Another 115.1 grams is water. Before you measure out anything, you should combine the two flours in the amounts noted from the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to form the blend. You should treat the blend as you would a single flour.

I'm getting ready to board my flight. So, I may be out of commission for a good part of the day.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #486 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:17:44 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on June 28, 2012, 09:35:51 AM

Norma,

As I understand it, the total dough batch weight you will be using is 460.4 grams. If you are using a 50% soaker, that comes to 230.2 grams. Half of that, for the soaker, is 115.1 grams of the flour blend. Another 115.1 grams is water. Before you measure out anything, you should combine the two flours in the amounts noted from the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to form the blend. You should treat the blend as you would a single flour.

I'm getting ready to board my flight. So, I may be out of commission for a good part of the day.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that the total dough batch weight I will be using is 460.4 grams for the Papa Gino‘s soaker pizza. I don’t know why I didn’t think of combining the 2 flours for the blend and just weigh from there for the soaker. I guess sometimes I make things too complicated when I don’t know what to do. It makes sense to just mix the blend and then take out what I need for the soaker.

Have a nice vacation and I won’t bother you while you are on vacation.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #487 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:45:55 AM »

Yesterday afternoon I baked four pies from the 85F soakers, two of pies had the salt added into the final dough and two of the pies had the salt added into soaker. In brief, these dough tasted and preformed like a standard non-soaker dough, the flavor between the two was very similar, and the salted-soaker dough (SSD) did not brown as much on the undercarriage than the unsalted soaker doughs (USD) did.
Longer version
No tackiness to report, the doughs felt normal.When stretching out the dough I was a little taken back. I have been so use to opening up soaker doughs, I expected this one to perform the same, however, all the doughs were rather tight, or tighter than the soaker doughs. All of the pies had good oven spring when baked. The first noticeable difference between the SSD and USD doughs were that the USD seem to initially rise better than the SSD, however, in the end both doughs doubled just fine. The SSD for some reason did not brown quite as much on the undercarriage as the USD, however, I did not time the bakes either, so human error cannot be entirely ruled out as a contributing factor. My guest tasters could not tell any noticeable difference between the USD and SSD crusts and neither could I. It was apparent, however, to two of the tasters that all of the crusts tasted drier and did not have as much flavor as the previous weeks pies. This was noticeable to me as well and I though it tasted more like a standard pizza crust, although none of us were complaining about the flavor or texture of the crust by any means, it was very good through and through.

Jim

JimmyG · « **Reply #488 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:47:16 AM »

The toppings for the USD pies are:
1. Fresh mozz (marinaded in Aleppo chili, garlic, oregano and oil), Aleppo chiles, Calabrian chilies, and mint
2. Aleppo chilies, Fresh mozz marinaded in Aleppo chilies and oil, and mushrooms

JimmyG · « **Reply #489 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:48:36 AM »

The toppings for the SSD pies are:
1. Young pecorino, Aleppo chilies, Calabrian chilies, and mint
2. Brussel sprouts, Aleppo chilies, young pecorino, and dry cured and smoked Kobe beef bacon (which is amazing. Seek it out, buy as much of it as you can, and don't cook it, just eat it raw)

JimmyG · « **Reply #490 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:50:17 AM »

The Kobe beef bacon (notice the fat marbling and the price on it too, a bargain)

norma427 · « **Reply #491 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:07:45 PM »

Jim,

All of your soaker dough pizzas made with the lower water temperature do look fantastic!

Your choices of dressings also sure sound so delicious.

Interesting that the dough doesn’t just almost open itself when using a lower water temperature in the soaker, the dough balls weren’t sticky and the pies tasted like a non soaker dough pizza. I wonder if the soaker with the lower water temperature didn‘t activate much of the enzymes in the starch and turn them to sugars.

Where do you want to take these experiments next? Are you finished with the experiments, or do you think you have any conclusions of what method might be the best for soakers?

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #492 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:12:41 PM »

Norma,
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think I am finished with the experiments, but I may stop for next week due to the holiday and it is suppose to be in upper 90Fs and lower 100Fs. I may revisit what I did last week with the incremental soakers amounts in the final dough. Drop one down to 25% of the total flour weight, keep the 50% as a control just to see how much it effects the flavor and texture in the final product.

Quote

wonder if the soaker with the lower water temperature didn‘t activate much of the enzymes in the starch and turn them to sugars.

I am guessing it is something along those lines and the heat is altering what is happening in the dough to some degree. I am still at a loss to completely explain what is going on but something in life are best left a mystery. However, you have reminded me that I need to run some tests with the copper sulfate, thank you for reminding.

Quote

any conclusions of what method might be the best for soakers?

We always seem to double back to the 50% by total flour weight using a higher water temp (115F-125F). Right now I think it is a simple enough method that works for many different styles of pizza and flour types, that any future improvements we find may almost be trivium, but you never know. I think if you wanted, you could safely add in the sugar to the soaker, it is a fairly stable molecule. The fat and the salt I would almost be a little wary of. But than again, you seemed to have some luck when you added them into your soakers so it may be all right too. I did not think the salt made a huge amount of difference to the final product, but I guess it is one of those things I like to be able to control and adjust in the final dough.

Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #493 on:** June 28, 2012, 06:01:08 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on June 28, 2012, 01:12:41 PM

Norma,
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think I am finished with the experiments, but I may stop for next week due to the holiday and it is suppose to be in upper 90Fs and lower 100Fs. I may revisit what I did last week with the incremental soakers amounts in the final dough. Drop one down to 25% of the total flour weight, keep the 50% as a control just to see how much it effects the flavor and texture in the final product.
I am guessing it is something along those lines and the heat is altering what is happening in the dough to some degree. I am still at a loss to completely explain what is going on but something in life are best left a mystery. However, you have reminded me that I need to run some tests with the copper sulfate, thank you for reminding.

We always seem to double back to the 50% by total flour weight using a higher water temp (115F-125F). Right now I think it is a simple enough method that works for many different styles of pizza and flour types, that any future improvements we find may almost be trivium, but you never know. I think if you wanted, you could safely add in the sugar to the soaker, it is a fairly stable molecule. The fat and the salt I would almost be a little wary of. But than again, you seemed to have some luck when you added them into your soakers so it may be all right too. I did not think the salt made a huge amount of difference to the final product, but I guess it is one of those things I like to be able to control and adjust in the final dough.

Jim

Jim,

Thank you for your thoughts on what you might do next. I think your idea of going down in a smaller increments of soaker in the formulation is a good one. I really don’t know, by think maybe you either knew, or stumbled upon about the best amount of soaker to use from the beginning. At least it appears that way so far.

This week since I am doing the two Papa Gino’s experiments amd that is good with me. It is also supposed to be rather warm in our area and this week market was busy so I almost didn’t get my experiments done. They were done at the end of the night. I still have my dessert dough ball in my home fridge that I didn’t get to use Tuesday. This coming week will probably be busy also with people that might be on vacation and visiting our area and also people purchasing fresh fruits and vegetables.

The following week I am not sure what I will try. I might try a 5 dough ball batch, along the lines of using 50% soaker at the same temperature I did this week without salt. I don’t know why the salt in the soaker didn’t give me the same results as the salt in the soaker, but it is better for me if I stayed with the what is proven for me so far. I think they were my best results so far. If you want me to do future experiments with the soaker method in the following weeks let me know what you would like me to try.

I agree the 50% soaker does work well with different types of flours.

If you have any leftover slices, let me know how a reheat goes on one slice. I am still curious about how reheats do when using the soaker method.

Thanks,

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #494 on:** June 29, 2012, 03:38:09 PM »

Norma,
I had eat a slice for lunch yesterday and today and both tasted okay on reheat. They were not as good as when they were fresh out of the oven, but certainly passable as good reheated pizza.

Quote

If you want me to do future experiments with the soaker method in the following weeks let me know what you would like me to try.

I certainly will.

Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #495 on:** June 29, 2012, 05:40:43 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on June 29, 2012, 03:38:09 PM

Norma,
I had eat a slice for lunch yesterday and today and both tasted okay on reheat. They were not as good as when they were fresh out of the oven, but certainly passable as good reheated pizza.

I certainly will.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for letting me know how your reheats went. When you are ready for me to do another experiment, whatever it is, I will do it.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #496 on:** July 02, 2012, 11:05:09 AM »

The soaker for the one Papa Gino’s final dough was made yesterday morning using a water temperature of 123.2 degrees F. I blended the flours of GM Full Strength and Kyrol flour. 115.1 grams of the blend of flour was used and 115.1 grams of water was used for the soaker.

I mixed the soaker Papa Gino’s final dough this morning and also the regular Papa Gino’s dough using Peter’s formulation. For the soaker Papa Gino’s final dough 168.09 grams of the blend of flour was used and 56.8 grams of water. The remaining IDY and salt were also added in the final dough. I made a mistake in weighing out the IDY for the final dough in the soaker dough, (used 4.25 grams instead of 1.06 grams) which was supposed to be the salt amount in the final dough. I noticed the mistake as soon as I went to add the salt to the flour, but then added the same amount of IDY to the regular Papa Dino’s dough, so both could be compared in how much they ferment and also how they bake. Maybe both doughs will act like a longer cold fermented dough since I added the extra IDY. Both dough balls were coated with cornmeal and both doughs felt about the same hydration, which I thought was odd since my other soaker dough have always felt higher in hydration.

The soaker did look like it had good gluten structure and also incorporated into the final dough well. I tasted the soaker and it did have the sweet taste.

Picture of the soaker this morning and pictures of both Papa Gino’s dough balls with the soaker dough ball being the first picture of the dough balls.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #497 on:** July 02, 2012, 11:05:39 AM »

Norma

Jimbo53 · « **Reply #498 on:** July 02, 2012, 11:13:12 AM »

Norma,

Quick question, have you guys been reballing the dough. I have a neo made with a soaker chilling in the fridge, I'm wondering if I should reball or not. It really helps my non soaker neo's (hybrid reinhart).

Thanks
Jimmy

norma427 · « **Reply #499 on:** July 02, 2012, 11:26:42 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo53 on July 02, 2012, 11:13:12 AM

Norma,

Quick question, have you guys been reballing the dough. I have a neo made with a soaker chilling in the fridge, I'm wondering if I should reball or not. It really helps my non soaker neo's

Thanks
Jimmy

Jimmy,

I didn’t reball my soaker Neapolitan doughs, but if you think your soaker dough is too sticky, or has spread, or fermented too much you could do a reball. I would think if you decide to do a reball you will have to wait until the gluten realigns, which you probably already know since you do reballs. You would have to watch the dough ball to see when that might be. If you are cold fermenting, (like you posted), if you want to use the dough after a reball in a few hours, you might want to let it at room temperature ferment so the dough ball relaxes enough to open it. It is probably up to you if you want to do a reball.

Norma