Author Topic: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS  (Read 3838 times)

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Offline clg763

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GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« on: May 10, 2012, 08:35:07 PM »
Let me preface this by saying that I love to cook, I have made all sorts of exquisite foods for thousands of people over the years and take great pride in my ability to craft food. However, baking is a different story, I absolutely love to make pizza but I have never figured out how to get good gluten development in my dough, not now, not ever. I have made all kinds of dough, from baguette dough to Italian bread to many different types of pizza dough and I have never seen any sort of gluten develop in my dough. I have tried AP and bread flours from GM, KA and numerous store brands and I still swear I have never seen that magical thing called gluten in my dough.

At first, I was doing things by hand, my dough would turn to a stiff mass and refuse to stretch out, just stay as firm ball that tore as soon as you began to knead, I tired very quickly of hand kneading because it never did what it promised...develop gluten. Then I tried no knead dough recipes, (what could be better right?) people just mix their ingredients and let them sit in a bowl, then finish off with some more flour and whalah! Perfect gluten! What happened to my dough? Nothing, no gluten developed, the dough would simply tear to uneven shreds just like my attempts at hand kneading. I tried numerous recipes for no knead mind you, none of them worked. Hours I have spent with these type of recipes, letting it autolyse, mix, knead, rest, autolyse, mix knead rest...nothing, no gluten...ever. Sure I would get little bits of gluten but nothing anything close to like beautiful smooth sheets of stretchy dough that can be tossed and stretched in countless ways.

Then I tried a kitchenaid, surely that would work right? I simply follow the recipe like a formula and the machine takes over my human error. However, after trying dozens of recipes on many more occasions, I have still yet to see a bakers windowpane from my dough. I looked for reasons and for solace, some people said that they never see windowpanes and not to worry about it, I tried to, but pizza dough just doesn't toss, stretch or form properly without a windowpane. Then I learned that the kitchenaid is a poor kneader of dough, the dough just works its way up the hook and doesn't knead. This was good news, once again, it wasn't my fault! I tried a breadmaker, no success, I tried a food processor, still no. Now my machine excuses were running thin.

I went back to hand kneading, I learned to use high hydration doughs that are tacky and more supple. I got a little closer, the dough didn't tear to shreds quite so easily, but it was still not PIZZA dough, it didn't stretch and fold all day and never tear. Now I am trying Alton Browns Pizza Pizzas recipe for the 20th time and still have no windowpane, I am using every ingredient and tool he is but after over an hour in the kitchenaid, (checking every 3min or so) I still have not seen a windowpane from my dough. I want my crust to look like PIZZA crust, chewy with excellent oven spring and large air pockets full of gluteny strands of crumb. I see pizzarias all over making sorts of abhorrent pizzas but they still can get GLUTEN development from their dough. They toss and stretch and fold and the dough does what is asked while turning into a beautiful thin semitransparent membrane while mine shows uneven strands and breaks.

I am at my wits end, what do I need to do to get this gluten to develop?!!


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 08:58:52 PM »
Step 1: Forget Alton Brown exists. If you are using his "expertise" as a guide, it's no surprise to me that you're not going anywhere. Alton Brown is a celebrity chef, not a pizzaiolo or even a baker. The guy doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to pizza. Once you realize that, it'll be much easier to progress.

Sorry I can't provide any specific insight right now regarding your problem. Some pictures would probably help.

Offline clg763

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 09:10:14 PM »
I guess the best way to progress from here would be to get a suggestion for an easy pizza recipe to try that lends to good gluten development and let me photograph my progress. Maybe one of the neapolitan or new york style pizzas. I am very good at chicago style but there is no gluten in that.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2012, 09:20:49 PM »
Your experience reminds me of someone on another forum who had a very close problem.  He lived in an area where the water was super-filtered, and lacked certain minerals needed for development of gluten.  He did solve it eventually, and happily made wonderful bread.

Where are you from?
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Offline clg763

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 09:32:29 PM »
I live in Rockford IL, but my pizza ventures began in Cincinnati, over the course of my time making pizza, I have had 4 different water suppliers.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 09:33:49 PM »
pizza dough just doesn't toss, stretch or form properly without a windowpane.

Really? I guess somebody forgot to tell that to my dough...
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 10:05:35 PM »
I'm so sorry, dude. Cincinnati AND Rockford? Ouch.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2012, 10:07:23 PM »
clg,

In all seriousness, windowpaining is meaningless. Itís not something to get hung up on, and itís not something you need to check to see if youíre done kneading.

If I had to guess, youíve fully developed gluten many times. Iíd also guess that youíve also overdeveloped it to the point of breakingdown (an hour in a Kitchen Aid would kill any dough). I bet the main reason you canít get your dough to windowpane is that you donít let the gluten relax before trying.

Iíll talk you through it so you can get it out of your system, but after you see the windowpane, please promise you wonít worry about it any more and you will focus on making good pizza instead. OK?

My dough is 5 or maybe 7 minutes in a Kitchen Aid followed by a couple minutes of hand kneading. Thatís all, and itís as beautiful as you could ever ask.

If you want to make a dough windowpane so you can check the box and get it behind you, let me know, and Iíll tell you how.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline clg763

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2012, 10:07:48 PM »
 :-D Bravo! That is what I need, some encouragement right now :chef:

As for the recipe/technique you use, could you elaborate on it? I am so in love with pizza that I am about to plunk down several thousand dollars on a WFO this summer and I still have not figured this dough thing out. Can you make your dough quickly and consistently? That is where I need to be, I watch videos of master pizzaiolos slapping and spinning their pizzas and the dough I see them work with is supple and stretches very easily without tearing.

I have even considered getting a night job at a pizzeria (not necessarily a great one) just to get comfortable with the dough aspect. If I do this, I am going to be making pizza so much that I will waste my life if I don't figure out how to do this quickly, with predictable, excellent results.

Offline clg763

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2012, 10:09:20 PM »
I'm so sorry, dude. Cincinnati AND Rockford? Ouch.

Haha, I have traveled everywhere, just never wound up living anywhere remotely nice.


scott123

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 10:32:07 PM »
Iíll talk you through it so you can get it out of your system, but after you see the windowpane, please promise you wonít worry about it any more and you will focus on making good pizza instead. OK?

Why take the time the time to talk Clg through an inherently flawed process?  If someone came along and asked about how to fish with dynamite, would you say "Sure, I'll teach you, but you really should learn how to use a fishing pole?" Of course you wouldn't.  Fully windowpaned dough (at the onset) is like fishing with dynamite. It's like a bull in a china shop and runs completely contrary to great pizzamaking and supple, easy to open doughs.

Let's get the fishing pole out and bait that hook  ;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 11:20:23 PM »
Why take the time the time to talk Clg through an inherently flawed process?  If someone came along and asked about how to fish with dynamite, would you say "Sure, I'll teach you, but you really should learn how to use a fishing pole?" Of course you wouldn't.  Fully windowpaned dough (at the onset) is like fishing with dynamite. It's like a bull in a china shop and runs completely contrary to great pizzamaking and supple, easy to open doughs.

Let's get the fishing pole out and bait that hook  ;D

You're right for the most part. However, it would show him that he is infact developing gluten when he thinks he is not and teach him about the properties of gluten such as the effects of relaxing.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 11:32:02 PM »
...but after over an hour in the kitchenaid, (checking every 3min or so) I still have not seen a windowpane from my dough.
After an hour in the KitchenAid, the gluten is probably WAAAY overdeveloped.

I've read your original post several times now, and it sounds to me like you may be too focused on one little thing to be able to see the bigger picture. Have you ever even made a pizza yet, or do you just give up every time you try because the gluten doesn't do what you think it should do? It sounds like you've never made it beyond the mixing stage.

Since it sounds like you're trying to make a NY style pizza, try this: Make a simple dough. This dough will be soft but not wet.

16 oz flour
9.5 oz water
1 tsp ADY
1.5 tsp salt

Mix the dough in your KitchenAid until all the flour has been incorporated into the dough, then continue mixing for a couple more minutes. Don't worry about window-paning. The dough doesn't have to be smooth; just almost smooth. (In other words, I want you to slightly undermix the dough.) Once it reaches the point of being almost smooth, stop the mixer and scale into two tight, round dough balls.

Place one of the dough balls on a cookie sheet (or any flat kitchen surface) and cover it with a large bowl. Put the other dough ball in a ziploc bag and throw it in the fridge. Leave the warm dough ball alone for at least two hours, then use a dough scraper or spatula to remove it from the flat surface. Dust some bench flour on each side of the dough ball, then knock down the dough and stretch it. If you do this, you should see what you're looking for.

If you don't learn anything from this dough ball, take the other one out of the fridge a day or two later and leave it at room temperature for a couple hours. Then do the same thing you did with the first dough ball.

scott123

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2012, 12:07:41 AM »
Clg, what style pizza are you attempting to make? While there are some good practices (especially regarding gluten development) that transcend specific styles, each style does some things differently.

Offline clg763

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2012, 12:31:40 AM »
Thank you all for the replies. I am really just going for pizza dough that has the right consistency. I see pizzaiolos at wood fired restaurants slapping and tossing dough that is nothing like the kind that I make. I have always baked the pizzas from the dough I make and the results have been mixed. I have never gotten the beautiful crumb that I see in the photos here with a very high oven spring. My pizzas have a tougher crust, with a more dense crumb, not at all the type I see in the photo above. I can taste that pizza in my mind right now and if mine could turn out like that, windowpane or not, I would be happy.

I really have no interest in silly notions that won't yield the results I want, I just to be able to reproduce the mastery of tastey pizzas and breads.

I will try the recipe you mentioned above and post the results. I am not that interested in NY style, I was just thinking it may give me good experience with gluten development, I am wanting to make neapolitan and nearly-politan pizzas, once I have made those, I can move on to other types.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2012, 01:12:16 AM »
I use a bread machine and let it knead the dough for 10 minutes.I take the dough out,ball it,and put it into a plastic container that has some oil sprayed to prevent sticking.You can Leave the dough out for a few hours in the bowl covered,or put it into the fridge,covered in the bowl,to cold rise for a day or two.

The Cold fridge dough,let it warm up 2 hours or so when ready,that way it will rise and bulk up some.

 :)





-Bill

Offline Pizzamaster

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 01:24:17 AM »
You are getting gluten. If you weren't your pizza would be a soft mess. And Alton Brown shouldn't automatically be dismissed. He is quite good at what he dies. The issue with him is he often puts so many steps into his recipes it gets more complicated than it needs to be.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2012, 08:21:27 AM »
Bread and pizza dough, although amazingly similar have different primary functions which they must perform. A bread dough must rise, a pizza dough must be capable of spreading. If you don't knead bread dough enough, the rise will not be acceptable. If you overknead pizza dough, it will be hard to spread (open).
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2012, 09:00:54 AM »
clg763,

Since you directed your opening post to Tom Lehmann, the Dough Doctor, you might be interested in what he says on this subject of gluten development. See the quoted material in Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694. You can actually see what Tom is talking about in his video at . However, you should keep in mind that Tom is talking about a dough made in a commercial mixer, which will do a better job of mixing and kneading a dough than most home stand mixers.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: GLUTEN NEVER DEVELOPS
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2012, 12:57:07 PM »
CLG;
Remember when your dough got so stiff that you couldn't do anything with it? That was due to gluten development. You might try just adding more water to the dough to soften it to the point where it can be kneaded more easily, or you can do as I do and let the microbes do all the work for you. Just put the dough into a suitably sized container, lightly cover it with a piece of plastic to prevent drying, and allow the dough to ferment for 5 or 6-hours, after which you should find the dough much more manageable. Or you can also put the dough up in smaller pieces, say 12-ounce pieces, lightly oil and place into individual plastic bags (do not seal tightly, but instead, twist the open end to form a pony tail and tuck the tail under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge), allow the dough to slowly ferment in the fridge (cold ferment) for 18 to 24-hours, then turn out onto a floured bench or counter top and begin shaping. This is called biochemical gluten development.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


 

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