Author Topic: Accidental Neapolitan?  (Read 943 times)

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Offline Pappy

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Accidental Neapolitan?
« on: May 13, 2012, 07:50:30 PM »
I'm a new member, and have been playing around with pizza recipes for a couple of months now, using this forum as my chief resource.  Today I had a real breakthrough, but was also thrown for a loop by an unexpected result.  I will detail what I did today, and attempt my own analysis of what occurred.  I would appreciate any input that any of you might have.

Yesterday I made my first dough with bromated All Trumps.  Previously, I had been experimenting with KA Bread and KA AP flours, with middling results.  I'll not bore you with my various failures up until now, except to say that I found the KA flour pizzas to be rather tough, with mediocre oven spring, although a delightful crispy/crunchiness was often in evidence.  I made various changes in kneading method, yeast amount, and hydration in order to lessen the chewiness while maintaining spring, to no avail, although I learned a lot in the process.  Based on what I read about the bromated All Trumps, I thought it might help with my problem.

Yesterday I made the following dough:

Flour:  400 grams (100%)
Water:  240 grams (60%)
IDY:  2 grams (.5%)
Salt:  8 grams (2%)

I put all the dry ingredients in my food processor, and gave them a quick pulse to combine.  I added all the water (cold, from the tap), and pulsed for 15 seconds until the water was absorbed.  I autolysed for 30 minutes, then gave another 15 second pulse, until the dough was spinning around the blade.  The temperature of the dough at the end of this process was 73 degrees.

I hand kneaded the dough with a little bench flour for 3 minutes, at which point it was beautifully hydrated, slightly sticky, and smooth as the proverbial baby's bottom.  After this knead I did a windowpane test: the windowpane was extraordinary, showing excellent gluten development.

I then divided the balls in two, put them each in a lightly oiled plastic container, and put them in the fridge for a 24 hour cold fermentation.

When I pulled the dough today the balls had enlarged by roughly 50%.  I gave them a two hour counter rest, then opened the balls.  This was the best handling dough I've ever had.  It handled like a dream, and I had two 11 inch pies in no time.

I've been baking on an outdoor gas grill, a Weber, with a pizza stone set where the grates usually are.  I preheat for 30 minutes, at which point the stone read 650 degrees or so on my laser.  Air temp was probably 550-600 degrees, as best as I can tell. 

Now here is where things get tricky.  My previous pies, made with KA flour, cooked with this set up in roughly six minutes.  These pies cooked in four, and when I say cooked I mean that another couple of seconds and they would have burned unacceptably. 

These pies were gorgeous (sorry, no pics).  Great spring, elegant cornichone, nice char.  But rather than being tough and crunchy, like the KA pies, the texture was more Neapolitan; soft, slightly moist, a touch of crispiness.  Strangely, despite the softness, individual slices had very little sag; they held up very well.  Given the high gluten content of the All Trumps, the highest I have worked with, my penchant for strong kneading, and the relatively low hydration, I expected exactly the opposite.  What happened?

I'm guessing that the bromate in the All Trumps might have hastened the browning, which caused me to pull the pies too early.  Had I gone to six minutes or so I think I might have retained most of the elegant crumb qualities while adding some crispiness to the crust.  I'm thinking that the bromated All Trumps might work more effectively at lower temps, say around 550 degrees, where a longer cook time might draw more of the moisture out of the dough before excess browning occurs.  I know that the old "elite" NY pizza makers used an unbromated, medium protein level flour for their pies cooked in high temp coal ovens; the bromated All Trumps seems to have come into vogue along with lower temp gas ovens, so perhaps there is a connection.  I know that Brian Spangler uses unbromated Harvest King for his dough, and cooks in a gas oven that goes to 650-700.  I've also noticed that the New Haven elite pizza joints use bromated All Trumps, and cook at very high temps, but push cook times to the limit, producing pies that are, visually, right on the edge of overcooked.  But they have the soft crumb and crisp crust, and taste amazing. 

I'm going to try the same recipe and method as above, but with Harvest King, in my outdoor oven, while attempting the above recipe exactly in my indoor electric at 550 degrees, to see if this theory has any merit.

Please let me know what you think.   


Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 10:23:07 PM »
I think you need to post a pic....or two. After you make this again the exact same way.thanks!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 10:31:46 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline toddster63

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 12:47:46 AM »
Pappy, I'm right there with you—having just started using the classic bleached/bromated All Trumps for the first time as well. And I too was surprised at how soft (but chewy) my first two AT pies (60% hydration, light mixing, RT fermentation with Ischia) came out—I also thought the taste was lifeless and too bitter (got my 5 lbs of AT from PennMac—maybe it's old). I have been using KASL, KAAP, BFB (Harvest King) and Caputo red and Pizzeria in recent months. I agree that with the high gluten content of the All Trumps and your strong kneading, and lower hydration (for HG any way), you should have seen more crispiness...? But then Caputo red has given me more crunchy pies than the AT!

I too found that while the AT was firm and chewy, there wasn't the same amount of crunch I have had with KASL, though both are HG chewy. I did see that the potassium bromate definitely aids in great oven spring/rise. It also browns quickly, like an HG should, but I'd say even more than KASL...

I was drawn to AT because of it's popularity on the East coast, particularly for New Haven thin crust. I'm trying some more AT experiments with EVVO and lower temps in the next few days (have been baking at 650F-700F, for around 2:00-2:30, or so on my LBE). But I agree with you that I think AT excels at temps more typical of deck ovens, say around 500F-550F. And I think that oil in the dough might be beneficial. I hope Scott or some one with AT experience pipes in here...!

But with my limited HG experience so far, I'll take KASL over the AT any day of the week. I really wanted the AT to be a little bit of a short cut too, but once again I am reminded that so much of pizza making is technique and experience!

Also my KAAP pies have never been tough—with natural starters and decent hydrations (64%), and quick bakes at 700F, they have been light, light (but not as tasty as Caputo). I need to work more with the BFB/Harvest King, it's made absolutely incredible sourdough loaves of bread for me, and since I like long RT ferments, it's harder protein winter wheat composition really is ideal. At the moment though, the Caputo red (also featuring No American winter wheat) is my darling—just makes the most outstanding pies with starters on my LBE—pure clean wheat taste with a bit of the starter culture kicking in, yum! Tad more crunch and chew than the 00 pizzeria, but still with that Caputo pillowy softeness.

If you want a good experiment for developing crunch, try making a dusting and peel flour of a 50/50 mix of HG flour (I use KASL) and semolina; in particularly on softer flours like KAAP or Caputo Pizzeria, it helps to develop a nice crunchy outer shell, though pizza purists will roll their eyes at you...!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 01:27:32 AM by toddster63 »

Offline Pappy

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 01:57:23 PM »
Toddster:

Thank you for your excellent and detailed reply.  I am particularly intrigued that you favor long room temperature ferments, as I switched to that method for my latest pies after some extensive reading.  Lactic acid production is enhanced by warmer temperatures, while the more vinegary acetic acid dominates a cold temperature ferment.  Also, there is ample testimony that a room temperature ferment enhances crispiness and lightness of the dough.  Evelyne Slomon, for example, testifies to the ethereal lightness of the Totonno crust, and notes that he was the only one of the "elite" pizza makers who stuck with the original same-day dough method, while even Lombardi switched to a slow cold ferment.  In Naples, same-day rises are the standard;  Marco, a.k.a. pizzanapolitana discusses the importance of enhanced lactic acid production in several of his posts, as does Daniel DiMuzio in his essential Bread Baking: An Artisan's Perspective.  DiMuzio is a big fan of long direct method bulk ferments for baguettes, and specifically mentions the crispiness and lightness that result.

For my next experiment, I followed the same procedure as above, using .25 percent yeast and bulk fermenting on the counter for 9 hours, at which point the dough had more than slightly doubled.  Room temp was 72 degrees.

I then balled the dough using minimal handling, and returned the balls to lightly oiled containers for a secondary fermentation.  Unfortunately, that lasted longer than I had anticipated, due to an issue at work that needed my attention.  I shaped the balls around four hours later, again with minimal handling.  The dough was once again extremely easy to work with.

I cooked outside at the same temp as my previous experiment, but this time I was able to keep the pies in the oven for 5 1/2 minutes, which seems more reasonable to me given the temp I am using. 

I will post pics just as soon as I figure out how.  The pizzas were a big improvement over the last batch: significantly crispier, with a surprising lightness and just enough chew.  I really think that, as you note, All Trumps thrives at a lower temp.  I suspect 550 is the optimum, which I will try next time.  Also, given how wet this dough is at 60% hydration, I might try dropping down to 55-57% for the 650 degree bake to see how that works out.

Can't wait to try the Harvest Spring, and I'm putting that Caputo on the list, too.  Thanks again for your thoughtful input.

Offline Pappy

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 02:29:11 PM »
Attempting to post first pic:  the pie.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 02:40:59 PM by Pappy »

Offline Pappy

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 02:32:17 PM »
The bottom:

Offline Pappy

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 02:34:07 PM »
The slice:
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 02:39:35 PM by Pappy »

Offline toddster63

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 08:40:09 PM »
We are so on the same page, Pappy!  Evelyne Slomon is my absolute idol; she hasn't posted much on the net, but I have read everything she has shared with RELISH (here and on PMQ), and have learned so much. I like how she is so convicted as to what the right way is, and everything she says, WORKS! Many here on PM.com make great pies, but tend to experiment a lot, which I do to, but at times I think, at least for myself, I get a little lost...! Evelyn makes it simple, and reorients me toward where I want to go...

Your latest looks great—a bit pale in color for my tastes, but some around my house think that I "burn" the pies too much and would love to have your golden color here! It's such a matter of personal taste. Your oven spring is great—small and big bubbles and Oh, my, just so nice! Your hydration is really paying off...

Craig and Bill and Chau really turned me on to RT ferments around here. I mean, these guys make these fabulous pies, and does most of Naples, right on the counter, so what the heck, I had to try it. It amazes me how little yeast you should use too—for my Ischia stater I use around 1 gram (1/8 tsp or so?) per pie (1%). I really do see how it makes the pies light, light, light! When I cook Caputo ala Neapolitan, ah, it's so delectable, with the pillow softness, the slice folded in half—my little pizza sandwich ala Naples. WFO's make an improvement, absolutely, but my LBE setup really impresses me (and others).

I don't want to derail your thread, so I posted some pics of my latest bakes HERE, in my own thread.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:46:28 PM by toddster63 »

Offline Pappy

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Re: Accidental Neapolitan?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 09:35:16 PM »
toddster:

Thank you for your comments and compliments.  Your pies look phenomenal!  I'd pay money for that breakfast pie!  You are right, mine is a bit pale; I was thinking today that I'm still a bit timid in front of the oven, and need to push right up to the edge.  I like some crunch and char!  I went from 3 1/2 minutes to 5 1/2 without killing the pies; next time I'll try to get to 6 1/2, which seems about right for the temp.  After all, I always make enough dough for two pies; if I burn the first I can still make another.    :)


 



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