Author Topic: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.  (Read 25173 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2012, 01:10:21 PM »
Would you venture to guess this is where I went astray -  using KABF? Did I need a higher gluten flour to make it work right?

slybarman,

No, you did not got astray with the KABF. Bubba's recipe should work with either KABF or a high-gluten flour. The range of functional hydration values is fairly large, from about 57-65%. Of course, as you get higher up in the range, the dough can become considerably more extensible. That is one of the reasons why many professionals who specialize in the NY style of pizza prefer to use around 57-60% hydration, especially if the workers assigned to make the pizzas do not have much experience with handling high-hydration doughs. The rated absorption value for KABF is 62%. For the KASL high-gluten flour, it is 63%.

Peter


Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2012, 01:27:57 PM »
Bubba,

I assume that the amounts of yeast (IDY), salt and sugar you quoted are by weights. Is that correct?

I estimate that the formula hydration for the recipe is around 54.3%. However, the roughly 6.45% extra virgin olive oil, which also adds "wetness" to the dough, in effect boosts the hydration to a bit less than 61%. That is a value that should work for a high-gluten flour.

I also note that if the salt is by weight, it comes to just 0.53%. Is that correct?

Peter


That is exactly right. I'm sorry I missed that. All ingredients are by weight. Thanks Pete.
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2012, 01:50:04 PM »
Bubba:

I just gave this a go and it came out wayyy too dry. Can you please confirm that I transcribed the ingredient amounts correctly from the video. Not sure if it matters, but I used KABF which I think is something like 12.7% gluten:

   
2 cups water @ 100 degrees
oz (14.17g) sugar
oz salt
oz yeast
Whisk together until dissolved
Add cup EVOO
Add 30 oz high gluten flour
Mix on lowest speed for 5 minutes




All measures are by weight. except the olive oil.
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Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 02:58:01 PM »
slybarman,

No, you did not got astray with the KABF. Bubba's recipe should work with either KABF or a high-gluten flour. The range of functional hydration values is fairly large, from about 57-65%. Of course, as you get higher up in the range, the dough can become considerably more extensible. That is one of the reasons why many professionals who specialize in the NY style of pizza prefer to use around 57-60% hydration, especially if the workers assigned to make the pizzas do not have much experience with handling high-hydration doughs. The rated absorption value for KABF is 62%. For the KASL high-gluten flour, it is 63%.

Peter

Thank you for your reply. I must have mismeasured the flour quantity then. The dough formed a ball in about 1 minute and the mixer was laboring to spin it - not like in the video. It felt very dry to the touch.

I probably shouldn't do things at night when I am already exhausted. I will give it another try in the next day or two.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2012, 03:23:32 PM »
Bubba,

I don't recall seeing the weights of the dough balls for each size pizza, except that one of the videos showed four dough balls for the 12" size. Did I miss the different dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes?

Peter

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 04:33:18 PM »
Bubba,

I don't recall seeing the weights of the dough balls for each size pizza, except that one of the videos showed four dough balls for the 12" size. Did I miss the different dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes?

Peter

Small 12" pie 10 to 12 ounces, Medium 14" pie 14 to 16 ounces large pie 20 to 24 ounces and a slice pie 28 to 30 ounces.
here is a picture of a 24 ounce dough in action.
 
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »
Bubba,

I am converting your recipe to baker's percent format. Can you tell me the pizza sizes for the large and slice pizzas?

Thanks.

Peter

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 06:13:31 PM »
Bubba,

I am converting your recipe to baker's percent format. Can you tell me the pizza sizes for the large and slice pizzas?

Thanks.

Peter

12 inch small, 14 inch medium, 16 inch large, 18 inch slice pie.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 06:57:26 PM »
For those who are interested, I converted Bubba's NY style dough recipe to baker's percent format. In order to have the total dough batch weight be a nice round number--50 ounces in this case--I used a value for the water that was 8.3 ounces per cup. Technically, a cup of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people end up with a slightly smaller number. So, the 8.3 number is good enough for our purposes. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following dough formulation for the 50-ounce dough batch:

Flour (100%):
Water* (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
850.42 g  |  30 oz | 1.87 lbs
470.57 g  |  16.6 oz | 1.04 lbs
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.71 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
53.99 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
1417.5 g | 50 oz | 3.12 lbs | TF = N/A
*At 100 degrees F
Note: No bowl residue compensation

For those who choose not to make 50 ounces of dough, they can use a different dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool. For example, if one wants to make a 14 ounce dough ball, using that dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the abovementioned baker's percents, we get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
238.12 g  |  8.4 oz | 0.52 lbs
131.76 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
15.12 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.36 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

It is also possible to use the thickness factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool. With the dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes that Bubba provided, I calculated the corresponding thickness factor (TF) values as follows:

Small (12"), 10-12 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.08942-0.1061
Medium (14"), 14-16 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.090946-0.103934
Large (16"), 20-24 ounce dough balls, TF= 0.099472-0.119366
Slice (18"), 28-30 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.110033-0.117898

The above should allow one to use Bubba's recipe to make any size pizza in essentially any number (up to 999). The above thickness factor values also allow one to control the thickness of the finished crusts of the pizzas within the ranges of thickness factor values given above. One can also use bowl residue compensation to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

Peter


Offline petef

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2012, 07:29:35 PM »

How to spin dough   http://youtu.be/xt1h90N-_wA



Fantastic dough spinning tutorial! I was amazed that you do the actual spin in less than 10 seconds. I've been using the cowboy technique but I'm going to try your method next time. You really did a great job by repeating the process over and over and in slow motion. I think I understand now. Again fantastic job. It's much appreciated.

That towel idea is great too. I just may get an old towel and cut it into a 14 inch diamameter disk for practicing my spinning.

---pete---


Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 04:54:50 AM »
Fantastic dough spinning tutorial! I was amazed that you do the actual spin in less than 10 seconds. I've been using the cowboy technique but I'm going to try your method next time. You really did a great job by repeating the process over and over and in slow motion. I think I understand now. Again fantastic job. It's much appreciated.

That towel idea is great too. I just may get an old towel and cut it into a 14 inch diamameter disk for practicing my spinning.

---pete---


your welcome. the towel will add to muscle memory via repetition and that will build confidence. When you do this for a living you have to have a reliable pizza per hour production ability to be able to handle a busy station on a Friday or Saturday night. A pie in the oven every three minuets is 20 pies an hour @ say $20.00 apiece is 400.00 per hour gross sales and will get you work.

 What really happens is in at 3:00 ovens on, make dough and sauce, open, set up and back up the pizza makeup table.

So if you do an average of $1,600.00 gross sales from your station per shift from 4:00 to 10:00 you will do the bulk of it from 5:00 till 8:00 and you will really need to do a pie in 1.5 to 2 minutes per during the rush or you will be in the weeds.
That's kitchen slag for being behind or swamped. Those nights are a long slow slide down a razor blade and it is best to avoid them.

From 8:00 to 10:00 it will begin to tapper off some and it is the first chance to pee, remember to wash your hands. Then get busy topping off prep for tomorrow to replace what you used today. 10:00 to 11:00 kill the ovens, break down the line, scrub the kitchen, counters, ovens, cooler doors and seals. Mop the floors and count the cash and make a night drop or hide the cash in the freezer and make a day deposit. It's just another day. It is kind of you to ask. we get breaks when we can and meals are generally at the end of the shift often in a box.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 05:28:56 AM by Bubba Kuhn »
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Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 05:43:49 PM »
I just tried it again. I weighed everything (including the liquids) by Pete's table above. I got pretty much the same result. I don't know if it is the KABF or something else, but it is coming out too dry. Either too much flour or not enough water. Has anyone else tried this yet with KABF?

Edit: I went back and watched the video again. Maybe the consistency I got today wasn't too different from the video. It is hard to tell. It definitely wasn't as wet as any other recipe I have made. It feels dry to the touch. It was more like playdough that had been left out of the can for a day or so. If I tried to ball it, the backside of the dough was tearing. All the other doughs I have tried were wet and would stick to my fingers. This one had no stick.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 06:41:19 PM by slybarman »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2012, 01:34:27 AM »
I just tried it again. I weighed everything (including the liquids) by Pete's table above. I got pretty much the same result. I don't know if it is the KABF or something else, but it is coming out too dry. Either too much flour or not enough water. Has anyone else tried this yet with KABF?

Edit: I went back and watched the video again. Maybe the consistency I got today wasn't too different from the video. It is hard to tell. It definitely wasn't as wet as any other recipe I have made. It feels dry to the touch. It was more like playdough that had been left out of the can for a day or so. If I tried to ball it, the backside of the dough was tearing. All the other doughs I have tried were wet and would stick to my fingers. This one had no stick.

The point of rolling dough into a ball is not only to help shape it. It was also necessary to roll out the CO2 bubbles and voids that comes from a time when yeast only came in one pound cake blocks. Back then it was just yeast. Now it is referred to as live culture or fresh yeast. Back before there were the new and more potent ADY or IDY all dough went through at least a single rise to double in size before balling and a few were double rise then roll and ball. The point was that if you did not work out as much CO2 bubbles possible was you worked the dough and then balled it. Back then there were no plastic bags, dough pots or plastic stacking dough trays. If dough then was under rolled the next day it would tough and unforgiving and would be hard to size with out tagging the crust a lot. 

Point being as there is no excess CO2 because of the single slow proof method the new yeast allows, just a quick balling will do no "kneed" :-D to over work it, then dredge in bench flour and bag to chill for 24 hours.

Hope that helps. Bubba

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Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2012, 09:07:48 AM »
Hi Bubba,
Thanks SO much for these tips. I've been trying to make good pizza for years now, and I've always thought that a 3-day cold rise was ideal. I'm going to stick with 1 to 2 days and see if that helps. I'll also watch the videos....

Marie
Marie

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2012, 10:57:05 AM »
Hi Bubba,
Thanks SO much for these tips. I've been trying to make good pizza for years now, and I've always thought that a 3-day cold rise was ideal. I'm going to stick with 1 to 2 days and see if that helps. I'll also watch the videos....

Marie

Your very welcome.
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Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2012, 05:55:10 AM »
thanks Bubba excellant work...what is your pizzeria called and where can I visit..are you in long island...thanks,again for your info and videos

Offline jason83

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2012, 06:12:08 AM »
Nice videos Bubba!  Very cool.  I also find that a 36-48 hour rise yields the most flavorful crust. 

Offline jives

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2012, 11:06:49 AM »
Bubba,
Thanks for the tips.  I will definitely put them to good use.

I grew up in Tucson.  What was the name of your place there?

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2012, 12:05:03 PM »
Bubba,
Thanks for the tips.  I will definitely put them to good use.

I grew up in Tucson.  What was the name of your place there?

That was when star wars was released. I was a working pizza maker in those days. I did not own my first shop until much later. I worked for a while at a place on Fort Lowell Boulevard called Da Vinci. This place was as much a dinner house as well as a busy pizza station and was owned by a hard working chef whose name was Cosmos.

And one of my favorite places to work that had great pie and was a place out on the end of speedway was called, what else?' New York Pizza. It was owned by a gentlemen named Bill Touscano. His sons ran the place day to day. I learned a lot there from Billy the younger.   
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Offline politon

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2012, 07:13:49 PM »
That was when star wars was released. I was a working pizza maker in those days. I did not own my first shop until much later. I worked for a while at a place on Fort Lowell Boulevard called Da Vinci. This place was as much a dinner house as well as a busy pizza station and was owned by a hard working chef whose name was Cosmos.

And one of my favorite places to work that had great pie and was a place out on the end of speedway was called, what else?' New York Pizza. It was owned by a gentlemen named Bill Touscano. His sons ran the place day to day. I learned a lot there from Billy the younger.   


Hi Bubba,

Here's a link to a 2010 article in the Tuscon Weekly reminiscing about DaVinci's that I felt you might be interested in:
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/italian-style/Content?oid=2303030

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Gratzi,

--Paul


 

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