Author Topic: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.  (Read 26977 times)

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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« on: May 16, 2012, 03:52:29 AM »
I would like to point out one of the most important and overlooked pieces of equipment in pizza dough making. The FRIDGE. Yes in the fridge. The colder the better 38 to 40 degrees is terrific but 40 to 42 will do nicely. The dough is not ready to use until it has cured or slow proofed for at least 24 hours. Remember no one starts mixing your dough when you order your pizza. It is pre-made and proofing in a cooler waiting for you to order. You make dough today for pizza tomorrow. Hold at least 24 hours and used by 48 hour is the best age dough for New York Style pizza. Great for hand spinning and that great right off the brick flavor and texture that is the signature of a true neighborhood pizza joint. The pizza dough recipe is nothing rare as far as dough is concerned. The real secret of what makes it pizza dough is in the "curing" or a kind of "annealing" of the dough as it ages under refrigeration. Unlike bread dough the pizza dough is never warm raised. This really changes the yeasts relationship in the recipe. It is raised once slowly under refrigeration after mixing, cutting and balling for portion so not to disturb the dough while slow proofing. This retards the yeasts growth and allows for a slow processing of the higher gluten and creates a "souring" that is the unique flavor that is pizza crust and why it does not taste like bread although the ingredient are essentially the same. There are three stages of curing in the dough cycle. 1 to 23 hours green dough leave it alone. 24 to 48 hours Great New York Style Pizza. 48 to 72 hours use as pan pizza sourdough crust. This is truly a trick of the trade. Hope that helps. Bubba.


Here is a list of links for my recipes and tips on how to make
Great New York Style Pizza!
You will never buy another pie again.


Make pizza   
<a href="http://youtu.be/4O6MfIJkHZA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/4O6MfIJkHZA</a>


Make dough in well   
<a href="http://youtu.be/BHfhETQUrQA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/BHfhETQUrQA</a>


How to spin dough   
<a href="http://youtu.be/xt1h90N-_wA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/xt1h90N-_wA</a>


Make dough in mixer 
<a href="http://youtu.be/AMisqAb--pM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/AMisqAb--pM</a>


Mix dough in a bowl 
<a href="http://youtu.be/cQvVmr0mhMw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/cQvVmr0mhMw</a>


Pizza sauce 
<a href="http://youtu.be/vJCzh33argM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/vJCzh33argM</a>

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Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 07:40:32 AM »
Thanks Bubba!  Your site started me in this pizza thing in 08.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 07:51:34 AM »
Nice post Bubba.  In my own personal experiments I have come to similar conclusions.  My NY doughs get aged for around 24hrs between 40-50F.  50F works too, you just have to adjust the amount of yeast.  48-60h is the limit for me though.  I have not found my dough to keep getting better and better with even longer fermentation as other members have reported.

Chau
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:53:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 10:54:52 AM »
Thanks Bubba:

I posted a couple questions on your mixer video.

Steve

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 03:33:16 PM »
Thanks Bubba!  Your site started me in this pizza thing in 08.

I am grateful that I was able to inspire even just one person to pursue the art. Thanks Franko! Hope all is well with you and yours. Bubba
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Offline DannyG

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 03:39:43 PM »
Bubba,
Great videos, thank you for posting. Do you bench rest the dough at all prior to balling and refrigerating, or do you ball straight out of the mixer?

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 04:23:07 PM »
Nice post Bubba.  In my own personal experiments I have come to similar conclusions.  My NY doughs get aged for around 24hrs between 40-50F.  50F works too, you just have to adjust the amount of yeast.  48-60h is the limit for me though.  I have not found my dough to keep getting better and better with even longer fermentation as other members have reported.

Chau

I agree with your temp range. Ever notice an age when it is hard to get the dough to brown?
That is when you can make a very sour pan pizza. Give it a try and see what you think. Bubba
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 04:33:45 PM »
Bubba,
Great videos, thank you for posting. Do you bench rest the dough at all prior to balling and refrigerating, or do you ball straight out of the mixer?

Straight out of the mixer as fast as possible into the cooler.  I used to have a gig in Tucson AZ and we would split the water in to two. The 2/3rds  warm went in first at the rest went in as an ice water slurry to keep the dough cool and yeast slow while we cut and rolled the dough. Other wise by the time you got to the end of batch " approx 115 lbs" the dough will have over proofed. It was very hot their and no air conditioning in the back kitchen. AHHH the good old days.
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 04:56:28 PM »
Thanks Bubba:

I posted a couple questions on your mixer video.

Steve

I replied
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Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 05:11:51 PM »
I replied

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it. I will give your method a try this weekend.

Any special pointers on balling and bagging the dough? You made reference in the videos to "doing it the right way" or something to that effect, but I did not see it described in any of the videos.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 05:21:19 PM »
Bubba,

After a long absence, it is good to see you back on the forum again.

Your providing links to the videos was very generous of you. I enjoyed them very much, especially the "slow motion" parts, and am sure that many of our members will benefit from them also. No doubt I will be referring new members to your post so that they can see how someone who spent years in the trenches mastered the skill abd techniques of making pizzas.

Peter

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 06:53:34 PM »
Bubba,

After a long absence, it is good to see you back on the forum again.

Your providing links to the videos was very generous of you. I enjoyed them very much, especially the "slow motion" parts, and am sure that many of our members will benefit from them also. No doubt I will be referring new members to your post so that they can see how someone who spent years in the trenches mastered the skill and techniques of making pizzas.

Peter

Thank you very much Peter. I am thinking about extending the videos beyond pizza. Any particular recipe requests? 
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Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 09:55:16 PM »
Bubba:

I just gave this a go and it came out wayyy too dry. Can you please confirm that I transcribed the ingredient amounts correctly from the video. Not sure if it matters, but I used KABF which I think is something like 12.7% gluten:

   
2 cups water @ 100 degrees
oz (14.17g) sugar
oz salt
oz yeast
Whisk together until dissolved
Add cup EVOO
Add 30 oz high gluten flour
Mix on lowest speed for 5 minutes



Offline Malanga

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 11:26:59 PM »
Thank you for the links to the videos Bubba!  Just watched the dough spinning vid and I'm sure I'll be watching it more than a few times. 

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 12:34:34 AM »
Bubba:

I just gave this a go and it came out wayyy too dry. Can you please confirm that I transcribed the ingredient amounts correctly from the video. Not sure if it matters, but I used KABF which I think is something like 12.7% gluten:

   
2 cups water @ 100 degrees
oz (14.17g) sugar
oz salt
oz yeast
Whisk together until dissolved
Add cup EVOO
Add 30 oz high gluten flour
Mix on lowest speed for 5 minutes





As I do not know your standards for wet or dry dough is It is hard to say from here. But I do stay away from pastry or any other extra fine grind flour. The dough will change texture after proofing and become quite elastic. If you tried to work the dough with out curing it first I am sure it would feel dry and it will not stretch but WILL rip instead. Let it rest overnight and then let me know how it worked.   
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Offline BobbyS

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 09:20:51 AM »
Thanks for the recipe, looking forward to trying it this weekend. Does your dough use a specific type of yeast?
1/2 oz yeast using DY or IDY would require different amounts ?
Thanks

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »
Thanks for the recipe, looking forward to trying it this weekend. Does your dough use a specific type of yeast?
1/2 oz yeast using DY or IDY would require different amounts ?
Thanks

IDY is what I use in the formula
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 10:57:11 AM »
Bubba,

I assume that the amounts of yeast (IDY), salt and sugar you quoted are by weights. Is that correct?

I estimate that the formula hydration for the recipe is around 54.3%. However, the roughly 6.45% extra virgin olive oil, which also adds "wetness" to the dough, in effect boosts the hydration to a bit less than 61%. That is a value that should work for a high-gluten flour.

I also note that if the salt is by weight, it comes to just 0.53%. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2012, 11:09:05 AM »
Bubba,

Awesome!

thanks,
Bob
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Offline slybarman

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 11:26:10 AM »
. . .  in effect boosts the hydration to a bit less than 61%. That is a value that should work for a high-gluten flour.

Would you venture to guess this is where I went astray -  using KABF? Did I need a higher gluten flour to make it work right?