Author Topic: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.  (Read 33146 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2012, 07:02:05 PM »
For those with a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C hook, it might help to sift the flour (before adding the IDY) and add the flour/IDY gradually to the water and oil in the mixer bowl (with the salt and sugar dissolved in the water). It might also help to start with the paddle attachment before switching over to the C hook. Even then, some human intervention may be required. Another alternative is to use a food processor, although the food processor will not be able to handle 50 ounces of dough. For either a standard KitchenAid mix with a C hook or a food processor, I would make small dough batches within the limit of the capacity of the mixer or processor. Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19201.msg187980.html#msg187980 shows how to make these kinds of adjustments.

Peter


Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »
Hi Peter,
I'm curious - what kind of mixer do you use? I've got a Kitchen-Aid, and it's not ideal for kneading dough.

Marie
Marie

Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2012, 08:29:05 PM »
Hi Peter,
I'm curious - what kind of mixer do you use? I've got a Kitchen-Aid, and it's not ideal for kneading dough.

Marie

Marie,

I am a gluten for punishment. I have a basic KitchenAid stand mixer, Model KSM90, with a C hook, now over 20 years old.

Peter

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2012, 08:30:30 PM »
I have a 20 year old KitchenAid K5SS. As long as I don't try to do more than about 1300g flour, I don't have any problems with the mixer and C-hook.
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2012, 08:05:40 AM »
My KA is about 30 years old, it's the "real deal" a Hobart made Kitchen Aid with C-hook. I rarely use it to make pizza dough, I am an old fashioned old fart and like to make my dough by hand. My tools are a glass mixing bowl and a Danish dough whisk and the both work just fine. :)
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2012, 08:54:51 AM »
My KA is about 30 years old, it's the "real deal" a Hobart made Kitchen Aid with C-hook. I rarely use it to make pizza dough, I am an old fashioned old fart and like to make my dough by hand. My tools are a glass mixing bowl and a Danish dough whisk and the both work just fine. :)

There is no reason to make a mixer dirty. I like the well method myself.
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Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2012, 09:29:18 AM »
I end up kneading my hand as well - my KA is no more than 10 years old  - I don't believe that would qualify it as mfg by Hobart?

Anyhow, I have a very hard time getting the windowpaning using the KA alone unless I let the dough rest for a few minutes (10 min or so) - is that cheating?

I had some extra dough yesterday. I cut the dough into small balls and cooked them in my Weber using a pizza stone that had been placed on top on a deep dish pan - best rolls I've had in a while...yum! I was able to bake at high 500s/low 600s...I'm going to try that with the pizza tonight provided it doesn't rain.
Marie

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2012, 11:25:01 AM »
eiram21

Hobart sold KitchenAid to Whirlpool in 1986, so anything after that date is not a Hobart.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2012, 11:38:07 AM »
Marie,

Here is a post that I sometimes cite on the subject of windowpaning: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg78054/topicseen.html#msg78054.

Peter


Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2012, 12:21:56 PM »
eiram21

Hobart sold KitchenAid to Whirlpool in 1986, so anything after that date is not a Hobart.

Darn! I'll have to hit E-bay and cross my fingers...lol

Marie,

Here is a post that I sometimes cite on the subject of windowpaning: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg78054/topicseen.html#msg78054.

Peter

Thanks Peter!
Marie

Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2012, 12:24:08 PM »
Peter,
Have you ever thought about publishing a book? You've got an amazing amount of pizza making knowledge!!! I'd buy it!

Marie
Marie

Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2012, 12:53:20 PM »
I have read through this entire thread and did not seem to find the answer to this question so I hope you can help me.

After bringing the dough out of the cooler, do you let it stand a certain amount of time or do you just work with it right away to make pizza.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2012, 01:49:37 PM »
Most (not all) let their dough warm to room temperature after it comes out of a cooler or refridgerator. I suggest that you try spreading a cold dough and you will see why most people let it warm up.
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2012, 02:18:34 PM »
I have read through this entire thread and did not seem to find the answer to this question so I hope you can help me.

After bringing the dough out of the cooler, do you let it stand a certain amount of time or do you just work with it right away to make pizza.

I like to spin the dough to stretch it. When I am spinning dough I want it as cold as possible.  When I am teaching I start with warm dough and just a pulling technique to open the dough. Neither method is superior to the other in quality, there is a difference in speed though. My best time is from a dough ball  into a 16 inch pepperoni pizza into the oven at 17.5 seconds. I use the spinning technique for production speed and to make my grandsons smile.
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Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2012, 01:03:07 PM »
So I made my first batch of dough last night. I followed the recipe and video to a T.

I weighed and balled the dough.

I used one of the dough mate trays to store them and put them in the cooler asap. This part I am not sure if I was wrong doing.

I just checked the dough, this is roughly 20 hours after putting them in the cooler.

The balls have roughly doubled in size and when I touched one of them it felt extremely airy. I put a tiny bit of pressure on one of them and you could just feel the air come out as if it was deflating.

they also smelled very yeasty, almost like wine going bad.

Is any of this normal or have I messed this up during the process.

Any help would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 01:05:59 PM by jonboy1544 »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2012, 01:09:14 PM »
So I made my first batch of dough last night. I followed the recipe and video to a T.

I weighed and balled the dough.

I used one of the dough mate trays to store them and put them in the cooler asap. This part I am not sure if I was wrong doing.

I just checked the dough, this is roughly 20 hours after putting them in the cooler.

The balls have roughly doubled in size and when I touched one of them it felt extremely airy. I put a tiny bit of pressure on one of them and you could just feel the air come out as if it was deflating.

they also smelled very yeasty, almost like wine going bad.

Is any of this normal or have I messed this up during the process.

Any help would be appreciated.

Sounds perfect to me. Go make a pizza and see!
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Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2012, 08:09:37 AM »
Another quick question as I have found so many varying answers depending on the dough formula.

Once I bring my dough tray out of the cooler to let the dough come to room temperature, how long am I able to keep the dough at room temperature in the dough trays?


Offline pizzaneer

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2012, 09:02:52 AM »
If they're ready, and it sounds like they are, I would not let them go too long at room temp after coming up to it.    Figure out what time you want to serve the pizzas and work backwards from that to determine your schedule during prep and bake. 

Everyone's hungry when the smell starts coming from the oven!
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Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2012, 09:41:34 AM »
For those who are interested, I converted Bubba's NY style dough recipe to baker's percent format. In order to have the total dough batch weight be a nice round number--50 ounces in this case--I used a value for the water that was 8.3 ounces per cup. Technically, a cup of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people end up with a slightly smaller number. So, the 8.3 number is good enough for our purposes. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following dough formulation for the 50-ounce dough batch:

Flour (100%):
Water* (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
850.42 g  |  30 oz | 1.87 lbs
470.57 g  |  16.6 oz | 1.04 lbs
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.71 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
53.99 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
1417.5 g | 50 oz | 3.12 lbs | TF = N/A
*At 100 degrees F
Note: No bowl residue compensation

For those who choose not to make 50 ounces of dough, they can use a different dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool. For example, if one wants to make a 14 ounce dough ball, using that dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the abovementioned baker's percents, we get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
238.12 g  |  8.4 oz | 0.52 lbs
131.76 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
15.12 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.36 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

It is also possible to use the thickness factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool. With the dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes that Bubba provided, I calculated the corresponding thickness factor (TF) values as follows:

Small (12"), 10-12 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.08942-0.1061
Medium (14"), 14-16 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.090946-0.103934
Large (16"), 20-24 ounce dough balls, TF= 0.099472-0.119366
Slice (18"), 28-30 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.110033-0.117898

The above should allow one to use Bubba's recipe to make any size pizza in essentially any number (up to 999). The above thickness factor values also allow one to control the thickness of the finished crusts of the pizzas within the ranges of thickness factor values given above. One can also use bowl residue compensation to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

Peter


In this calculation the salt is 1.6% but in Petzas reply #21 before this he asks if the salt is .53% and Bubba said that is correct, did i miss something?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 09:43:39 AM by franko9752 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2012, 11:08:47 AM »
In this calculation the salt is 1.6% but in Petzas reply #21 before this he asks if the salt is .53% and Bubba said that is correct, did i miss something?

franko9752,

The correct answer is 1.66667%. The 0.53% number was an incorrect calculation on my part.

Peter

Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2012, 02:28:21 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????     Also, would the far greater amount of idy make it easier to shape right out of the cooler with less time for room temp?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 02:41:29 PM by franko9752 »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2012, 02:57:20 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????

Please bare in mind that pizza shops have to fuse quality with production. In many shops the dough formula incorporated dough storage for the next days sales volumes. For example if I have 50 dough balls for a Friday night and 100  orders for 100 pizzas that is bad JUJU and poor management.  Also if I had 100 dough balls and only sold 25 a day for three days there would be a 25% loss in old dough and that to is bad JUJU and even poorer management. Pizza shops make the best pizza they can given production and food cost. They do not make the best pizza they can given only quality as a standard. Also this is why some places pull dough to warm as it is easier and faster for a novice to open the dough if it has warmed and rested. But if you do not sell that dough by closing time it will be trashed as the yeast is less likely to respond like all the rest making the product inconsistent.  You at home have more latitude for perusing the perfect pizza then most any pizza shop.   So I think the QUESTION is not did you do something right or wrong, But did you enjoy the experience and the pizza you made? If so it was another in a long line of perfect pizza!
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2012, 03:02:38 PM »
I really enjoyed this Topic and the valuable info you have posted for everyone.Thanks for teaching many of us new tricks!

 8)
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2012, 03:22:00 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????     Also, would the far greater amount of idy make it easier to shape right out of the cooler with less time for room temp?

franko9752,

Yes, Bubba's dough uses a lot more yeast than most NY style doughs that I have read about, and certainly a lot more yeast than the Lehmann NY style. But, remember that Bubba's dough is multi-functional. That is, if it is allowed to "hot proof" (as Bubba calls it) for 90 minutes, it can be used to make what we on the forum call an "emergency dough" pizza. The dough can also be cold fermented for a minimum of 24 hours, but it can make it out to 36 hours. Beyond that, the refrigerator will have to be very cold. I believe that Bubba said that the oldest cold fermented dough can be used to make pan pizzas. Remember also that Bubba's hydration is on the low side (a little over 55%) and will ferment more slowly than the Lehmann dough.

By contrast, the Lehmann dough, as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php, has a hydration of 58-65%, and is intended to be used as follows:

The dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results. To use the dough balls, remove a quantity from the cooler and allow them to warm at room temperature for approximately 2-3 hours. The dough can then be shaped into skins, or shaped into pans for proofing. Unused dough can remain at room temperature (covered to prevent drying) for up to 6 hours after removal from the cooler.

There is no way that the Lehmann dough can be hot proofed and be usable in 90 minutes. In my experience in a home setting, it is perhaps at its best at about three days of cold fermentation. The Lehmann dough is a strictly cold fermented dough. If Bubba kept his dough at room temperature for 8-9 hours (2-3 hours temper time and 6 hours thereafter), I suspect that his dough would overferment because of the large amount of yeast.

Peter
 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2012, 03:28:22 PM »
Have you ever thought about publishing a book? You've got an amazing amount of pizza making knowledge!!! I'd buy it!

Marie,

Your post was so brief that I missed it completely until today. I appreciate the sentiment, but I really don't think that there is much of a market for the stuff that I write (or would write). Most harried housewives and househusbands want simple recipes recited with volume measurements, and have little interest in the technical aspects of pizza making. Besides, just about everything I know about pizza, whether right or wrong, is already on the forum. I am too lazy to pull everything together in the form of a book.

Peter