Author Topic: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.  (Read 27028 times)

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Offline eiram21

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2012, 12:24:08 PM »
Peter,
Have you ever thought about publishing a book? You've got an amazing amount of pizza making knowledge!!! I'd buy it!

Marie
Marie


Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2012, 12:53:20 PM »
I have read through this entire thread and did not seem to find the answer to this question so I hope you can help me.

After bringing the dough out of the cooler, do you let it stand a certain amount of time or do you just work with it right away to make pizza.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2012, 01:49:37 PM »
Most (not all) let their dough warm to room temperature after it comes out of a cooler or refridgerator. I suggest that you try spreading a cold dough and you will see why most people let it warm up.

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2012, 02:18:34 PM »
I have read through this entire thread and did not seem to find the answer to this question so I hope you can help me.

After bringing the dough out of the cooler, do you let it stand a certain amount of time or do you just work with it right away to make pizza.

I like to spin the dough to stretch it. When I am spinning dough I want it as cold as possible.  When I am teaching I start with warm dough and just a pulling technique to open the dough. Neither method is superior to the other in quality, there is a difference in speed though. My best time is from a dough ball  into a 16 inch pepperoni pizza into the oven at 17.5 seconds. I use the spinning technique for production speed and to make my grandsons smile.
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Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2012, 01:03:07 PM »
So I made my first batch of dough last night. I followed the recipe and video to a T.

I weighed and balled the dough.

I used one of the dough mate trays to store them and put them in the cooler asap. This part I am not sure if I was wrong doing.

I just checked the dough, this is roughly 20 hours after putting them in the cooler.

The balls have roughly doubled in size and when I touched one of them it felt extremely airy. I put a tiny bit of pressure on one of them and you could just feel the air come out as if it was deflating.

they also smelled very yeasty, almost like wine going bad.

Is any of this normal or have I messed this up during the process.

Any help would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 01:05:59 PM by jonboy1544 »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2012, 01:09:14 PM »
So I made my first batch of dough last night. I followed the recipe and video to a T.

I weighed and balled the dough.

I used one of the dough mate trays to store them and put them in the cooler asap. This part I am not sure if I was wrong doing.

I just checked the dough, this is roughly 20 hours after putting them in the cooler.

The balls have roughly doubled in size and when I touched one of them it felt extremely airy. I put a tiny bit of pressure on one of them and you could just feel the air come out as if it was deflating.

they also smelled very yeasty, almost like wine going bad.

Is any of this normal or have I messed this up during the process.

Any help would be appreciated.

Sounds perfect to me. Go make a pizza and see!
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Offline jonboy1544

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2012, 08:09:37 AM »
Another quick question as I have found so many varying answers depending on the dough formula.

Once I bring my dough tray out of the cooler to let the dough come to room temperature, how long am I able to keep the dough at room temperature in the dough trays?

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2012, 09:02:52 AM »
If they're ready, and it sounds like they are, I would not let them go too long at room temp after coming up to it.    Figure out what time you want to serve the pizzas and work backwards from that to determine your schedule during prep and bake. 

Everyone's hungry when the smell starts coming from the oven!
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Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2012, 09:41:34 AM »
For those who are interested, I converted Bubba's NY style dough recipe to baker's percent format. In order to have the total dough batch weight be a nice round number--50 ounces in this case--I used a value for the water that was 8.3 ounces per cup. Technically, a cup of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people end up with a slightly smaller number. So, the 8.3 number is good enough for our purposes. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following dough formulation for the 50-ounce dough batch:

Flour (100%):
Water* (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
850.42 g  |  30 oz | 1.87 lbs
470.57 g  |  16.6 oz | 1.04 lbs
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.71 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
53.99 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
1417.5 g | 50 oz | 3.12 lbs | TF = N/A
*At 100 degrees F
Note: No bowl residue compensation

For those who choose not to make 50 ounces of dough, they can use a different dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool. For example, if one wants to make a 14 ounce dough ball, using that dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the abovementioned baker's percents, we get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
238.12 g  |  8.4 oz | 0.52 lbs
131.76 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
15.12 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.36 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

It is also possible to use the thickness factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool. With the dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes that Bubba provided, I calculated the corresponding thickness factor (TF) values as follows:

Small (12"), 10-12 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.08942-0.1061
Medium (14"), 14-16 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.090946-0.103934
Large (16"), 20-24 ounce dough balls, TF= 0.099472-0.119366
Slice (18"), 28-30 ounce dough balls, TF = 0.110033-0.117898

The above should allow one to use Bubba's recipe to make any size pizza in essentially any number (up to 999). The above thickness factor values also allow one to control the thickness of the finished crusts of the pizzas within the ranges of thickness factor values given above. One can also use bowl residue compensation to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

Peter


In this calculation the salt is 1.6% but in Petzas reply #21 before this he asks if the salt is .53% and Bubba said that is correct, did i miss something?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 09:43:39 AM by franko9752 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2012, 11:08:47 AM »
In this calculation the salt is 1.6% but in Petzas reply #21 before this he asks if the salt is .53% and Bubba said that is correct, did i miss something?

franko9752,

The correct answer is 1.66667%. The 0.53% number was an incorrect calculation on my part.

Peter


Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2012, 02:28:21 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????     Also, would the far greater amount of idy make it easier to shape right out of the cooler with less time for room temp?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 02:41:29 PM by franko9752 »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2012, 02:57:20 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????

Please bare in mind that pizza shops have to fuse quality with production. In many shops the dough formula incorporated dough storage for the next days sales volumes. For example if I have 50 dough balls for a Friday night and 100  orders for 100 pizzas that is bad JUJU and poor management.  Also if I had 100 dough balls and only sold 25 a day for three days there would be a 25% loss in old dough and that to is bad JUJU and even poorer management. Pizza shops make the best pizza they can given production and food cost. They do not make the best pizza they can given only quality as a standard. Also this is why some places pull dough to warm as it is easier and faster for a novice to open the dough if it has warmed and rested. But if you do not sell that dough by closing time it will be trashed as the yeast is less likely to respond like all the rest making the product inconsistent.  You at home have more latitude for perusing the perfect pizza then most any pizza shop.   So I think the QUESTION is not did you do something right or wrong, But did you enjoy the experience and the pizza you made? If so it was another in a long line of perfect pizza!
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2012, 03:02:38 PM »
I really enjoyed this Topic and the valuable info you have posted for everyone.Thanks for teaching many of us new tricks!

 8)
-Bill

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2012, 03:22:00 PM »
Maybe a dumb question but i am curious. I usually use 0.25% yeast in my Lehman NY recipe and a 24 hr cold ferment, 1.6% seems high as the Lehman calculator suggests 0.17% - 0.5%. My doughballs in the cooler after 24hrs are not doubled or puffy but after 2hrs room temp are good to shape. I must try this 1.6% idy for sure. Am i using too little idy at 0.25%????     Also, would the far greater amount of idy make it easier to shape right out of the cooler with less time for room temp?


franko9752,

Yes, Bubba's dough uses a lot more yeast than most NY style doughs that I have read about, and certainly a lot more yeast than the Lehmann NY style. But, remember that Bubba's dough is multi-functional. That is, if it is allowed to "hot proof" (as Bubba calls it) for 90 minutes, it can be used to make what we on the forum call an "emergency dough" pizza. The dough can also be cold fermented for a minimum of 24 hours, but it can make it out to 36 hours. Beyond that, the refrigerator will have to be very cold. I believe that Bubba said that the oldest cold fermented dough can be used to make pan pizzas. Remember also that Bubba's hydration is on the low side (a little over 55%) and will ferment more slowly than the Lehmann dough.

By contrast, the Lehmann dough, as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php, has a hydration of 58-65%, and is intended to be used as follows:

The dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results. To use the dough balls, remove a quantity from the cooler and allow them to warm at room temperature for approximately 2-3 hours. The dough can then be shaped into skins, or shaped into pans for proofing. Unused dough can remain at room temperature (covered to prevent drying) for up to 6 hours after removal from the cooler.

There is no way that the Lehmann dough can be hot proofed and be usable in 90 minutes. In my experience in a home setting, it is perhaps at its best at about three days of cold fermentation. The Lehmann dough is a strictly cold fermented dough. If Bubba kept his dough at room temperature for 8-9 hours (2-3 hours temper time and 6 hours thereafter), I suspect that his dough would overferment because of the large amount of yeast.

Peter
 

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2012, 03:28:22 PM »
Have you ever thought about publishing a book? You've got an amazing amount of pizza making knowledge!!! I'd buy it!

Marie,

Your post was so brief that I missed it completely until today. I appreciate the sentiment, but I really don't think that there is much of a market for the stuff that I write (or would write). Most harried housewives and househusbands want simple recipes recited with volume measurements, and have little interest in the technical aspects of pizza making. Besides, just about everything I know about pizza, whether right or wrong, is already on the forum. I am too lazy to pull everything together in the form of a book.

Peter

Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2012, 03:35:10 PM »
Please bare in mind that pizza shops have to fuse quality with production. In many shops the dough formula incorporated dough storage for the next days sales volumes. For example if I have 50 dough balls for a Friday night and 100  orders for 100 pizzas that is bad JUJU and poor management.  Also if I had 100 dough balls and only sold 25 a day for three days there would be a 25% loss in old dough and that to is bad JUJU and even poorer management. Pizza shops make the best pizza they can given production and food cost. They do not make the best pizza they can given only quality as a standard. Also this is why some places pull dough to warm as it is easier and faster for a novice to open the dough if it has warmed and rested. But if you do not sell that dough by closing time it will be trashed as the yeast is less likely to respond like all the rest making the product inconsistent.  You at home have more latitude for perusing the perfect pizza then most any pizza shop.   So I think the QUESTION is not did you do something right or wrong, But did you enjoy the experience and the pizza you made? If so it was another in a long line of perfect pizza!
Thanks Bubba. I really don't cook pies that much at home since Jan. cos i have a 3 night pizza gig at the local bar club and cook 4 hrs. 3 nights a week(more nights coming). I usually do about 15-20 pies and strombolies a night with my Bakers Pride p22 electric deck oven. I make the dough balls 24 hrs in advance and take them out of the cooler a couple of hours before cooking. If sales seem slow i put some back in the cooler and if needed i have a pizzapan ontop of the oven with some seminola highglut flour mix and put a cold partilally room temped ball from the cooler on the pan to warm a little and seems to work. I do hand stretch and through as your HomeSpun site taught me 4 years ago and it works ok.  I do juggle the balls in and out of the cooler sometimes as sales slow or speed up, Thank u so much for your input.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2012, 05:30:04 PM »
Peter,

Using a Lehmanns recipe,I can have a dough ball ready to use by 3 hours.I make a dough around 62%.I do this often,I make a dough using Bouncer flour,or KABF,warm water,idy yeast,salt,sometimes sugar,and after mixing,ball it,spray with a mist of olive oil spray, and let it room rise in a covered bowl.

A few times I have done this,it tasted pretty good,even though it did not cold rise like I normally do.Of course,the longer cold rises I do tastes better and makes a far better crust.

 :)

-Bill

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2012, 05:34:02 PM »
Bill,

How much yeast do you use to make an emergency Lehmann dough?

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2012, 08:28:53 PM »
Bill,

How much yeast do you use to make an emergency Lehmann dough?

Peter

Hi Peter,

It depends on the size I'm going to make.I usually will add a 1/4 tsp-1/2 tsp more than what the recipe might call for.Let me see if I have some notes jotted down somewhere for a specific example that worked.

Sorry for sort of Hijacking the topic everyone,just wanted to add I had decent results and also look forward to trying the recipes posted earlier.

 :)

-Bill

Offline franko9752

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2012, 02:46:21 AM »
Peter,

Using a Lehmanns recipe,I can have a dough ball ready to use by 3 hours.I make a dough around 62%.I do this often,I make a dough using Bouncer flour,or KABF,warm water,idy yeast,salt,sometimes sugar,and after mixing,ball it,spray with a mist of olive oil spray, and let it room rise in a covered bowl.

A few times I have done this,it tasted pretty good,even though it did not cold rise like I normally do.Of course,the longer cold rises I do tastes better and makes a far better crust.

 :)I have done that before too chickenparm. I would sometimes mix a ball up with a bit more idy than usual on a Sun. afternoon and cover with a pizza proof pan at room temp. and after 2,3 or 4 hrs make a pie and thay do taste good.