Author Topic: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.  (Read 23097 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2012, 09:13:25 AM »
This is probably something that not all would agree on, but I think I would rather keep a few dough balls in the freezer for emergency use rather than to make and use a rush dough. Same day doughs have very little flavor and/or color compared to an aged dough. In the time you have to make and proof a "same day" dough, you can take one out of the freezer and have it ready in the same amount of time. The microwave can speed it along if need be. Just my thoughts, after being a cold fermenter for so long, same day doughs just don't do "it" for me.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2012, 09:20:36 AM »
Let me see if I have some notes jotted down somewhere for a specific example that worked.


Bill,

There is no need to look up anything. I just wanted you to confirm my suspicion that there was more yeast than what one would use when making a Lehmann NY style dough in accordance with his recipe and instructions. When I made a Lehmann emergency dough, I used 0.7% IDY, as was discussed in Replies 407 and 408 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2012, 09:44:13 AM »
This is probably something that not all would agree on, but I think I would rather keep a few dough balls in the freezer for emergency use rather than to make and use a rush dough. Same day doughs have very little flavor and/or color compared to an aged dough. In the time you have to make and proof a "same day" dough, you can take one out of the freezer and have it ready in the same amount of time. The microwave can speed it along if need be. Just my thoughts, after being a cold fermenter for so long, same day doughs just don't do "it" for me.


Dave,

Bubba was a professional pizza operator and, as such, it is common practice, if not a necessity, to have a way of making a backup dough in case something happens to the regular dough. It might be a power failure that happened overnight and ruined the dough, or the dough maker forgot to put yeast or salt in the dough, or any one of a number of other unanticipated events. I agree with you that an emergency dough may not be as good as a regular cold fermented dough, especially in the crust color department. That is because the Maillard reactions require simple (reducing) sugars in order to produce crust coloration. Ordinary table sugar is a disaccharide that has to be broken down into simple sugars (fructose and glucose) in order to participate in the Maillard reactions (as residual sugars). There are some simple sugars in the flour, but table sugar takes a fair amount of time to be broken down into simple sugars. However, some of the table sugar may provide crust coloration through caramelization but you may need a lot of it.

I think that there are some dough recipes that produce a decent emergency dough. One that I liked is a Papa John's emergency dough. I described one such version at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. You will note that that recipe is similar to what Bubba uses except that I used a lot of sugar, in the form of honey, and the crust was thicker. The honey was used because it already consists of simple sugars that can start to work immediately, not only to feed the yeast but also to provide crust color through the Maillard reactions and maybe also through caramelization. If one uses honey in Bubba's recipe instead of sugar, I think there is a good chance of getting increased crust coloration.

Peter

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2012, 12:46:07 PM »
This is probably something that not all would agree on, but I think I would rather keep a few dough balls in the freezer for emergency use rather than to make and use a rush dough. Same day doughs have very little flavor and/or color compared to an aged dough. In the time you have to make and proof a "same day" dough, you can take one out of the freezer and have it ready in the same amount of time. The microwave can speed it along if need be. Just my thoughts, after being a cold fermenter for so long, same day doughs just don't do "it" for me.

Frozen dough. Such memories. You are right you can freeze dough but it will deteriorate some but if under a week old are better then the fresh. The dough will freezer burn rather quickly too. I once worked a very popular spot that did not have a mixer. The place was a nice funky neighborhood place of modest means that was attached to a jazz club. The local food critic wrote us up as the best in town and overnight all hell broke loose. We suffered every problem you LOVE to have like explosive volume growth and cash flow.  This place contracted and bought their dough balls from the neighborhood Safeway grocers  with an in house bakery. They came weighed rolled FROZEN and bagged. We kept them 24 hours ahead and let them slow thaw in the cooler overnight and they were ready to use. They were good for 2 days but better on the first day.  Professionally microwaves make me shutter. When I find them in restaurant kitchens I throw them out and insist that the cooks cook. I do admit there is on in my home kitchen and my wife says IT STAYS!   
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2012, 01:13:13 PM »
Bubba,

I would think that dough made using your recipe would freeze very well and, and if the dough balls are kept in a freezer without a defrost cycle, they should hold up even longer than a week. I would think that one day of defrosting is perhaps the best time period for your dough, given the amount of yeast. Cutting the amount of yeast in half would perhaps allow one to go to two days from a usage standpoint. In my experience in a home setting, three days might work but you perhaps don't want to go any longer than that. Even commercial dough balls frozen at extremely low temperatures can't hold out that long before things start to go downhill. But, even then, the dough can be used for other purposes, like breadsticks, garlic knots, etc. You might even be able to use the dough to make pan pizzas where over extensibility of the dough shouldn't be a problem with that style of pizza.

What I have learned from my experience is that frozen dough balls work better than what most people might think. That was a real eye opener for me.

Peter

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2012, 01:56:02 PM »
Dave,

Bubba was a professional pizza operator and, as such, it is common practice, if not a necessity, to have a way of making a backup dough in case something happens to the regular dough. It might be a power failure that happened overnight and ruined the dough, or the dough maker forgot to put yeast or salt in the dough, or any one of a number of other unanticipated events. I agree with you that an emergency dough may not be as good as a regular cold fermented dough, especially in the crust color department. That is because the Maillard reactions require simple (reducing) sugars in order to produce crust coloration. Ordinary table sugar is a disaccharide that has to be broken down into simple sugars (fructose and glucose) in order to participate in the Maillard reactions (as residual sugars). There are some simple sugars in the flour, but table sugar takes a fair amount of time to be broken down into simple sugars. However, some of the table sugar may provide crust coloration through caramelization but you may need a lot of it.

I think that there are some dough recipes that produce a decent emergency dough. One that I liked is a Papa John's emergency dough. I described one such version at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. You will note that that recipe is similar to what Bubba uses except that I used a lot of sugar, in the form of honey, and the crust was thicker. The honey was used because it already consists of simple sugars that can start to work immediately, not only to feed the yeast but also to provide crust color through the Maillard reactions and maybe also through caramelization. If one uses honey in Bubba's recipe instead of sugar, I think there is a good chance of getting increased crust coloration.

Peter


Oh man Peter you are so right. As my wife and I read this post this morning we both cracked up at the same time and echoed the name of an old employee who was great in every way, but would invariably forget the yeast in the dough at the most inopportune times. And yes the equipment failures, utility interruptions, Presidential visits if you are in close proximity and no there was no compensation for for such requested closings.

Anyway try this. Make my dough as per usual with no modification. Cut into three portions weighing 16.6 ounces each and roll the dough into balls and dredge in flour. Place one in a bowl coated in olive oil and leave it in a warm spot to raise until doubled. Place another in the cooler as per usual. Then place the third one in a plastic bag ( I like the produce bag from buying veggies at the store) and put in the freezer.

Now turn on your oven and heat your brick for pizza tonight. Now take the warm dough from the bowl and handling gently to preserve the raise as much as possible place the dough in a pile of bench flour. The pat and press from the center out but not where you want the outer crust to raise and form your pizza.
Careful as this dough will be very soft and easy to open as it will stretch under its own weight when lifted to your fist. Dress as you will and try this pizza.

Wait while the second dough ball cold proofs. Then make your regular pizza as like. Eat compare the crust difference and enjoy.

As the doughball in the freezer is not as time sensitive you can take a break for a day or two or not, its up to you.
The day before use you may slow thaw it in the cooler over night or the day of warm thaw on the counter. The cooler works better as the yeast wakes more evenly. Make a pie compare and enjoy. Please take note of the ability of this universal dough formula to withstand most any production conditions. This is not a happenstance and I did this with intent. Try it and see.
When testing I recommend cheese pizza as the best test.

 
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2012, 01:59:28 PM »
Bubba,

I would think that dough made using your recipe would freeze very well and, and if the dough balls are kept in a freezer without a defrost cycle, they should hold up even longer than a week. I would think that one day of defrosting is perhaps the best time period for your dough, given the amount of yeast. Cutting the amount of yeast in half would perhaps allow one to go to two days from a usage standpoint. In my experience in a home setting, three days might work but you perhaps don't want to go any longer than that. Even commercial dough balls frozen at extremely low temperatures can't hold out that long before things start to go downhill. But, even then, the dough can be used for other purposes, like breadsticks, garlic knots, etc. You might even be able to use the dough to make pan pizzas where over extensibility of the dough shouldn't be a problem with that style of pizza.

What I have learned from my experience is that frozen dough balls work better than what most people might think. That was a real eye opener for me.

Peter

You are so right in every way.
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2012, 04:16:54 PM »


Frank,

That's good that you had a good experience doing so.I do this at time when the kids want pizza and there isnt any doughballs made.They really cant tell a difference nor do they care much,they just love it regardless!
 :-D

There have been a few times,the dough did not turn out that well for me,and as I learned more,I began to look for how the bubbles were forming by looking under the bottom of the clear plastic bowl.

If the bubbles pits are looking a bit large,I know it will turn out fine.If they are smallish or tiny,I know it isn't going to be as good.Sometimes I will let the dough go to 4-5 hours if needed if there is no hurry.

 :)


-Bill

Offline mkevenson

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2012, 08:19:56 PM »
I made this dough today:


Flour (100%):
Water (55.3333%):
IDY (1.66667%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Olive Oil (6.3482%):
Sugar (1.66667%):
Total (166.68151%):
238.12 g  |  8.4 oz | 0.52 lbs
131.76 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
15.12 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.36 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Thanks to Peter and Bubba.

My question is, what is the ideal baking temp?
I have a 2stone and can get up to 800+if needed.

Thank you for your help.

Happy New Year!

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline MrPibbs

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2012, 04:24:05 AM »
Bubba,  (love that name!) your thread and those videos were just really awesome!  Gonna do my next dough with your recipe and tips.  I got my square bar towel out....great teaching aid!

Thanks so much for putting all this together, including your pizza sauce.


Offline TomN

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Re: The real trade secret to any great pizza dough.
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2013, 07:54:08 PM »
I appreciate your thread. Very informative. Thanks.

TomN


 

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