Author Topic: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?  (Read 5001 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 10:36:15 PM »
For baking, I'd take MFB every day of the week and twice on Sunday! For frying too for that matter.

Craig,

I may be dense, but what is MFB?

Norma
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 10:38:02 PM »
For baking, I'd take MFB every day of the week and twice on Sunday! For frying too for that matter.

No I found most pan places bought on price first and quality second. I went back to the independent hand-spun production style shops. I found pan pizza boring and unfulfilling and uninspired as a work challenge.  
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 10:58:50 PM »
Can I come to your house? Bubba

Bubba, most contributing members here are always welcomed at my home.  I will gladly make time to make pizza for folks even If they are just passing through.

Re: shortening in NY style pies.  A few months back, I tried shortening in my dough as oppose to oil and noted a big difference and improvement in the quality of the crust and crumb.  I haven't been really vocal about the differences, but I'm glad to hear that many old school places use shortening in the dough.

Chau

« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:38:02 PM by Jackie Tran »

Online scott123

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 12:45:02 PM »
Bubba, no offense, but your experience doesn't match mine. I've never seen a wood proofing box in a NY pizzeria and I go back to the late 70s. Aluminum proofing pans have been the norm since I started eating pizza. The aluminum proofing pan places of my youth produced some of the best pizza I've ever eaten.  Pizza's glory days aren't about the proofing containers, but the ovens.  Baking time, over the years, has increased, and, inversely, the quality of pies has dropped.  Increasing thickness factors (as influenced by chains) is a close second.

Re; unfinished wood. I'm well aware that wood has anti-bacterial properties, but, at the same time, it will, over time, absorb oil, and that oil will go rancid.  Not everyone is able to detect rancid oil from wooden cooking utensils, but I can, and I'm not alone.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:26:37 PM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 01:09:54 PM »
I am raised in the Newark NJ area from birth through the mid 70's.  My mother is from Italy and we had family and friends working in many pizzerias.   I remember pizzerias as some of the coolest places to just stand and watch the old men make pies.  When I go back home now to visit my family most are no longer maned by the old Italian men in their white shirts and white pants and less places seem to make a good pie like they use to.  I do remember the ovens well.  For some reason they stick in my mind.  Long story short, I am now a special education high school teacher and teach out of a commercial kitchen. We teach life/vocational skills and prepare students for maximum independence as adults.   We have several scratch made food businesses.  The products are sold to local cafes/markets/catering and our dog biscuits are in many local pet stores (soon to be in chain pet stores I hope).  We make sourdough bread from a 200 year old starter and is a 3 day process, hand rolled boil/bake bagels, baguettes start with a starter the night before and go through 4 rises and finish in canvas cloth from france.   I just scored 2 old blodgett 1000 ovens that we will use for pizza, breads, bagels, and old fashion soft pretzels. I should have the ovens up and running by the start of school in August.  Our line emphasis hand made, real ingredients, and as close to old school as we can get.   Walter
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:45:14 PM by waltertore »

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 02:04:16 PM »
I am raised in the Newark NJ area from birth through the mid 70's.  My mother is from Italy and we had family and friends working in many pizzerias.   I remember pizzerias as some of the coolest places to just stand and watch the old men make pies.  When I go back home now to visit my family most are no longer maned by the old Italian men in their white shirts and white pants and less places seem to make a good pie like they use to.  I do remember the ovens well.  For some reason they stick in my mind.  Long story short, I am now a special education high school teacher and teach out of a commercial kitchen. We teach life/vocational skills and prepare students for maximum independence as adults.   We have several scratch made food businesses.  The products are sold to local cafes/markets/catering and our dog biscuits are in many local pet stores (soon to be in chain pet stores I hope).  We make sourdough bread from a 200 year old starter and is a 3 day process, hand rolled boil/bake bagels, baguettes start with a starter the night before and go through 4 rises and finish in canvas cloth from france.   I just scored 2 old blodgett 1000 ovens that we will use for pizza, breads, bagels, and old fashion soft pretzels. I should have the ovens up and running by the start of school in August.  Our line emphasis hand made, real ingredients, and as close to old school as we can get.   Walter

Here's to you Walter and the things that you do Hip Hip Hurray! I would bet if I looked around your kitchen I would find a can of malt extract.
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2012, 02:44:58 PM »
Bubba, no offense, but your experience doesn't match mine. I've never seen a wood proofing box in a NY pizzeria and I go back to the late 70s. Aluminum proofing pans have been the norm since I started eating pizza. The aluminum proofing pan places of my youth produced some of the best pizza I've ever eaten.  Pizza's glory days aren't about the proofing containers, but the ovens.  Baking time, over the years, has increased, and, inversely, the quality of pies has dropped.  Increasing thickness factors (as influenced by chains) is a close second.

Re; unfinished wood. I'm well aware that wood has antibacterial properties, but, at the same time, it will, over time, absorb oil, and that oil will go rancid.  Not everyone is able to detect rancid oil from wooden cooking utensils, but I can, and I'm not alone.

No offense taken. You are quite right. By the late seventies slow proofing and dough pots and other methods were the order of the day. I really dislike dough pots. The only thing they bring to the production kitchen is a Toxicity from the acid in the oil leaching aluminum into the dough ball, more work and less efficient storage.I found dough pots will develop pin hole leaks in the bottoms over time. When you make a couple of hundred of pies a day then you have a couple of hundred dough pot to wash and re-oil each day. At the end of the year you have paid out thousands of dollars to wash dough pots. I would rather use that time and money to teach that person to make pizza and to cook then to be a drudge. I too can smell rancid oil from across the room. That is why dough trays were scrapped and stripped and re-oiled each day before reuse. And yes the wood will absorb oil over time and go rancid. This alarmed the health inspectors starting the move to the new storage that led to things like dough pots. And I must point out that your statement  "unfinished wood. I'm well aware that wood has antibacterial properties, but" is misleading. Some wood may have this property but just as many are toxic. Ever seen a HEMLOCK salad bowl? I think not. How about a wooden spoon make from FIR. I think not. There are a lot of people who read this forums and do not have the culinary depth that it takes to keep cooking safe. There are a lot of artistically carved wooden cooking utensils met to hang on a wall and are not meant to use. You should never assume wood in general is antibacterial and safe.  Bubba
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2012, 03:36:36 PM »
Craig,

I may be dense, but what is MFB?

Norma

MFB is a brand of shortening.
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Offline waltertore

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 04:05:43 PM »
Here's to you Walter and the things that you do Hip Hip Hurray! I would bet if I looked around your kitchen I would find a can of malt extract.


Hi bubba:  I use dried malt extract in our bagels.  the syrup is too messy for my special needs students to handle especially around a hot pot of water they take a bath in.  I appreciate you sharing your stories, skills- thanks!  walter

I hope someday to walk in your shop for a pie!  Where is your pizzeria located?  I have a few friends on LI who love to eat good pizza.  What ovens do you use?  I can't wait to start using the blodgett 1000's.  Star Tavern in Orange NJ uses them and they are one of my all time NJ favorite pizzerias.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:10:24 PM by waltertore »

cornicione54

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 04:23:37 PM »
Quote
There are a lot of people who read this forums and do not have the culinary depth that it takes to keep cooking safe.

Ouch. :-D No offense but i know people who would claim "culinary depth" (or at least experience) who don't hold a candle to the expertise I've seen on these forums, but let's put aside the generalisations shall we?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:25:59 PM by cornicione54 »

Offline jason83

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 06:25:57 PM »
Bubba,

I'm very curious about the old school NY pizza that you're speaking about.  What types of flour, cheese and tomatoes were used back then?  I'm wondering how much they have changed, if any to what's being used now.  I appreciate it!

Jason

Offline norma427

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2012, 08:58:40 PM »
MFB is a brand of shortening.

Craig,

Thanks!  :)

Norma
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Online scott123

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2012, 12:53:49 AM »
No offense taken. You are quite right. By the late seventies slow proofing and dough pots and other methods were the order of the day. I really dislike dough pots. The only thing they bring to the production kitchen is a Toxicity from the acid in the oil leaching aluminum into the dough ball, more work and less efficient storage.I found dough pots will develop pin hole leaks in the bottoms over time. When you make a couple of hundred of pies a day then you have a couple of hundred dough pot to wash and re-oil each day. At the end of the year you have paid out thousands of dollars to wash dough pots. I would rather use that time and money to teach that person to make pizza and to cook then to be a drudge. I too can smell rancid oil from across the room. That is why dough trays were scrapped and stripped and re-oiled each day before reuse. And yes the wood will absorb oil over time and go rancid. This alarmed the health inspectors starting the move to the new storage that led to things like dough pots. And I must point out that your statement  "unfinished wood. I'm well aware that wood has antibacterial properties, but" is misleading. Some wood may have this property but just as many are toxic. Ever seen a HEMLOCK salad bowl? I think not. How about a wooden spoon make from FIR. I think not. There are a lot of people who read this forums and do not have the culinary depth that it takes to keep cooking safe. There are a lot of artistically carved wooden cooking utensils met to hang on a wall and are not meant to use. You should never assume wood in general is antibacterial and safe.  Bubba

My reference to wood and bacteria was to the countless studies that have been done proving wooden coooking utensils and cutting boards to be anti-bacterial/safe for food use, not as a call to use Hemlock salad bowls.

I'll only use plastic proofing pans now, but, for then, the dough generally didn't spend all that much time in the dough pots and thus didn't leech much aluminum.  Not that leeched aluminum has ever been associated with any health risks.  I'm incredibly sensitive to dissolved aluminum, but I never detected it in any dough pot using pizzeria.  At the same time, though, I can taste whether or not an old, rancid wooden spoon has been used to make pasta sauce, and if one of these old time pizzerias were using rancid wooden proofing pans, I would have screamed bloody murder.

My avatar, Pizza Town, started in 1958, and from all the reports I've gotten, is still making the same legendary pizza today that it made half a century ago. And they're doing it with... plastic proofing boxes. No old dough, no wooden proofing boxes, no rancid oil, just an old, blistering hot, 4 minute pizza producing oven and pizzamaking virtuosos at the bench.  They're pretty much one of the only pizzerias in this area that have maintained quality, but it had nothing to do with wood, nor did wood play a role in the other places in this area that were great but are now crap.

Perhaps wood was a Long Island thing. Are you anywhere near the ocean?  Salt would probably be bad for aluminum. For the rest of NY/NJ, though, I really don't think wood was that pervasive during the glory days.  Unless you want to argue that the glory days pre-date the 70s, which puts it pre-bromate, so, for me, that's going to be a tough sell.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 01:02:48 AM by scott123 »

Offline Giggliato

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2012, 02:21:28 AM »
Interesting, the pizza shop I work at heavily oils their dough after balling. I'm going to make sure and put the air exposed side down for awhile and taste test lol.

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2012, 09:14:41 AM »
Interesting, the pizza shop I work at heavily oils their dough after balling. I'm going to make sure and put the air exposed side down for awhile and taste test lol.

keep me posted
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2012, 10:36:46 AM »
Quote
Perhaps wood was a Long Island thing.

This is why we have the best tasting pizzas in the country... the residual tree resin from the wooden storage boxes.  ;D

Jim
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2012, 08:19:00 PM »
My reference to wood and bacteria was to the countless studies that have been done proving wooden coooking utensils and cutting boards to be anti-bacterial/safe for food use, not as a call to use Hemlock salad bowls.

I'll only use plastic proofing pans now, but, for then, the dough generally didn't spend all that much time in the dough pots and thus didn't leech much aluminum.  Not that leeched aluminum has ever been associated with any health risks.  I'm incredibly sensitive to dissolved aluminum, but I never detected it in any dough pot using pizzeria.  At the same time, though, I can taste whether or not an old, rancid wooden spoon has been used to make pasta sauce, and if one of these old time pizzerias were using rancid wooden proofing pans, I would have screamed bloody murder.

My avatar, Pizza Town, started in 1958, and from all the reports I've gotten, is still making the same legendary pizza today that it made half a century ago. And they're doing it with... plastic proofing boxes. No old dough, no wooden proofing boxes, no rancid oil, just an old, blistering hot, 4 minute pizza producing oven and pizzamaking virtuosos at the bench.  They're pretty much one of the only pizzerias in this area that have maintained quality, but it had nothing to do with wood, nor did wood play a role in the other places in this area that were great but are now crap.

Perhaps wood was a Long Island thing. Are you anywhere near the ocean?  Salt would probably be bad for aluminum. For the rest of NY/NJ, though, I really don't think wood was that pervasive during the glory days.  Unless you want to argue that the glory days pre-date the 70s, which puts it pre-bromate, so, for me, that's going to be a tough sell.


As far as Pizza Town goes in 1958 there were no aluminum stacking pots nor were there stacking plastic dough trays.  You might ask about there old original station in the beginning.

Define blistering hot ovens. Unless coal or wood fired ovens are used whose temperature  are manually regulated by feeding the fire. Commercial ovens have but two thermostatic control sets available to them for construction. Either the ever ubiquitous  low range thermostatic control set operating from 250 degrees to 550 degrees. Or the more rare high temp controls that went from 350 degrees to 750 degrees on the dial but above 625 degrees they were a  uncontrolled continuous fire oven that never seemed to be able to hold the heat and therefore was not stable. With the exception of the bakers prides most of the other ovens  doors would twist and leak if you went above 600 degrees. I am talking about standard stacking pizza ovens. For example Bakers Pride, Blodggett, Lang etc in every configuration from counter top to side by side triple stacks. Gas and Electric. This leaves the basic working range of a an average in house oven at 550 to 625. Until commercially installed wood fired or dome ovens came into the market recently, this was true were ever I worked. From New York, to Arizona to Alaska.  

Also I am well aware of the sanitation hoax played on the industry that make us swap out old wood for new plastic just to find out that the wood boards were better because they absorbed the bleach water and cleaned below the surface unlike the plastic boards that retained bacteria instead.

Bromated flour was never used as it is a way to improve a low grade low gluten product to begin with and is toxic.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-bromated-flour.htm

I have always stuck to a red winter wheat enriched with malted barley flour and an abscorbic acid conditioner.  

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-barley-flour.htm

This link sites the USA adding bromine to flour to enhance baking as early as 1914.

http://season9.com/potassium-bromate/

I have always used malted flours as a rule of thumb I wont sell what I wont eat.


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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2012, 10:17:21 PM »
This is why we have the best tasting pizzas in the country... the residual tree resin from the wooden storage boxes.  ;D

Jim

Yes I'm shure that is it. Not the hard work from year to year. It had nothing to do with it!     NOT!
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2012, 10:19:19 PM »
This is why we have the best tasting pizzas in the country... the residual tree resin from the wooden storage boxes.  ;D

Jim


I have found them in old shops from New York to Arizona to Alaska and all point in between
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2012, 10:26:19 PM »

Hi bubba:  I use dried malt extract in our bagels.  the syrup is too messy for my special needs students to handle especially around a hot pot of water they take a bath in.  I appreciate you sharing your stories, skills- thanks!  walter

I hope someday to walk in your shop for a pie!  Where is your pizzeria located?  I have a few friends on LI who love to eat good pizza.  What ovens do you use?  I can't wait to start using the blodgett 1000's.  Star Tavern in Orange NJ uses them and they are one of my all time NJ favorite pizzerias.

Blodgetts were bought on price and found all over the country. The doors often warped over time and leaked. I've put a hell of a lot of pies out of them but they take a lot of tending as they were notoriously uneven.

I was born and raised on Long Island. Although my body is no longer there my mind often returns home so I claim it.
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