Can the OLD SCHOOL PIZZAS of legend even be made today?

[Bubba Kuhn]

Bubba,

I'm very curious about the old school NY pizza that you're speaking about.  What types of flour, cheese and tomatoes were used back then?  I'm wondering how much they have changed, if any to what's being used now.  I appreciate it!

Jason

Hello Jason
Your questions sparked some old memories so it took some time to write back but here it goes.
 As I look back I can only speak from my experience. Early on I did not know chit from Shineola about pizza or anything else for that matter. I had no intention of going into food service. I was a kid just glad to have a job, that included a room and $5.00 a week spending cash. I did help with stocking on delivery days. We had a street elevator to the basement for supply delivery. That meant someone had to bring  had to every thing up to the work spaces. Beer for the bar flour and cheese and all kitchen supply's to the kitchen. You get the drift.  This place was owned by an older tall Italian Gentlemen who was always dressed in white trousers and a white shirt with a bistro apron if he was doing work in the kitchen. His name was Ray Romondo.

We used a brand of pizza sauce that was called DOB I found it coast to coast and in Alaska too. In the early eighties it just disappeared from the market.  We used a brand of cheese that was not generally available for nationwide distribution. It was called Polly'O mozzarella and rare away from the eastern seaboard. Back in the day certain types of businesses and products when bought them came with free fire insurance, unlike some unlucky others.. There were some people who really wanted to be your supply chain manager.

I was more bothered at the time why Ray sent me to the bakery down the street every day for ten loafs of French bread, and why he would refer to the cheese and sauce delivery as the insurance payment. One day I asked him how come his Italian American restaurant served French bread and and what did he mean by insurance payment? His reply was and I quote " Listen booby if you think I'm gonna bust my horns over 10 loaves a day, you got another thing coming and you will understand about insurance when you get older. From this I took " you got another thing coming " as an implied raise but did come to understand what he meant.

Polly'O for me is the gold standard by which I compare all others. There is a Canadian mozzarella named Sapauto that is also in a league of its own. Go see my video on youtube for my personal sauce recipe.     

[jason83]

Hi Bubba,

I guess times have changed.  I've read that the reason that pizza in Philly was bad\probably still is in some peoples views was because they couldn't get any decent tomatoes, cheese and flour.  That may have been because the supplies from NYC were held back.  I don't know for sure.  Either way it sounds like you had an interesting time back then. I've heard good things about Polly-O.   I appreciate you reply and I'll check out your video.

Jason

[Tannerwooden]

I understand and agree with Bubba's original point:  Pizza won't ever be made/taste like it used to.  However, I'm pretty sure that is a good thing!

My trade is building and remodeling houses.  When I started, I heard someone say to my boss at the time, "Man! They just don't build them like they used to, do they?"  To which my boss replied, "No, and it's a good thing. They build them a lot better."  Being on the west coast, I have worked on houses as much as 100 yrs old. I would take a modern house any day.  I can't imagine all the isssue you would find in an east coast home that is up to 200 years old.  Even the best of carpenters from that time were working with old methods, ancient technology and outdated techniques.

Sure, there are guys today who take advantage of the wealth of building info and technology today and make a piss-poor house because they can.  They are the building equivilent of Dominos.  However, those of us who care to take the time to study, learn, and apply that knowledge, and keep abreast of new information can make a house that is tighter, better, and longer lasting than any older home, no matter how much old growth lumber might have been used.

The same is true of pizza.  How did you know when your oven was hot enough back then?  See how fast a peice of parchment burned?  Now we use an infrared thermometer.  We know more about how to grind flour now.  We handle our food smarter. Though it is misused at times, we genetically engineer it to taste better.  Anyone who doubts this should go to a corn museum and see how they would like the taste of a tiny, pitiful old corncob.  (I wonder if they have corn museums?)

I'm not sure where people's belief in the "good ol' days" comes from.  I read a study once that showed that older folks have a harder time remembering bad memories than good ones.  Today, we live longer, are healthier(doubt it?  Look at the preceding item!), more connected, more civilized and just plain happier than we used to be as a society.  Ok, I'm getting away from pizza.  Sorry.

Me?  I'll take modern food and modern know-how any old day.

[pizzaneer]

Speaking as someone who stick-built his own house under the supervision of as 85 year-old master builder, I have to agree with certain reservations.  Those being: frequently, there are perfectly good reasons why things were done a certain way in the old days, and have been abandoned as being too expensive in terms of labor and materials these days.  Newer is NOT neccesarily better, just more cost-effective and/or more efficient.  Case in point:  using the lamination techinique to assemble a massive central support beam running the length of the house out of plywood and 2x12's.  Why better than steel? Steel sags under high heat.  Single-beam wood is impossible to find.  Pressed wood I-beam? No frickin way. Hit it with a lighter. You'll see what I mean.  That's just one example out of many... and why my house could be a neighborhood bomb shelter...

That said, I would never debate the merits of hand drills vs. electric drills.  The uses it's put to? Maybe. 

You can never, ever duplicate the results of years of tradition + years of experience with a little book learning and a recipe. 

Bubba, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!

[Bubba Kuhn]

Speaking as someone who stick-built his own house under the supervision of as 85 year-old master builder, I have to agree with certain reservations.  Those being: frequently, there are perfectly good reasons why things were done a certain way in the old days, and have been abandoned as being too expensive in terms of labor and materials these days.  Newer is NOT neccesarily better, just more cost-effective and/or more efficient.  Case in point:  using the lamination techinique to assemble a massive central support beam running the length of the house out of plywood and 2x12's.  Why better than steel? Steel sags under high heat.  Single-beam wood is impossible to find.  Pressed wood I-beam? No frickin way. Hit it with a lighter. You'll see what I mean.  That's just one example out of many... and why my house could be a neighborhood bomb shelter...

That said, I would never debate the merits of hand drills vs. electric drills.  The uses it's put to? Maybe. 

You can never, ever duplicate the results of years of tradition + years of experience with a little book learning and a recipe. 

Bubba, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!

Your Welcome.

[waltertore]

I dug that story. It took me back to my youth.  Polly O is what we used in our house.  The local grocery store can get it but they want like $7 pound.  I keep that for personal pies.  Walter

Here is a staged picture in front of my 1975 blodgett 1000 ovens. The pie was made in the classrooms conventional oven.  They will be hooked up in early july.  My special education students will be cooking pizzas, breads, bagels, pretzels, in them.  We will have our state of ohio bakery license and board of health certificate by the start of the new school year. Walter

[buceriasdon]

There are some downloadable programs on line for resizing photos. A google search will do the trick. I use:   http://www.imageoptimizer.net/Pages/Home.aspx

[Tannerwooden]

"You can never, ever duplicate the results of years of tradition + years of experience with a little book learning and a recipe. "

Definitely true!  But I think that due to modern accesibility of group knowledge and modern tools, I bet a lot of guys and gals in their kitchens are making better pizzas than some of the old, experienced guys.  In the same way, modern builders who have a lot of book knowledge and a little on the job training are building MUCH more fireproof houses with their laminated beams, modern fire-stopping construction techniques and modern materials than the old, experienced builders did.

Don't get me wrong.  If you have the choice, ALWAYS go with the experienced builder. (like me!  )  I am trying to say that I would take a pizza made in a modern kitchen over one made in an outdated kitchen any day of the week.

I'm sorry Bubba if I have been rude.  I truly enjoyed this post as I love all your posts.  I especially appreciated your videos on pizza twirling.  Best on the web IMO.
One of the reasons I remodel is because I love history and seeing how things were done back in the day.  I just can't look at those times with nostalgia any more than I can look back at the days when I wouldn't be able to talk with you like this because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet!

[Bubba Kuhn]

I dug that story. It took me back to my youth.  Polly O is what we used in our house.  The local grocery store can get it but they want like $7 pound.  I keep that for personal pies.  Walter

Here is a staged picture in front of my 1975 blodgett 1000 ovens. The pie was made in the classrooms conventional oven.  They will be hooked up in early july.  My special education students will be cooking pizzas, breads, bagels, pretzels, in them.  We will have our state of ohio bakery license and board of health certificate by the start of the new school year. Walter

I am not sure how to attach a larger pizza. Here is the link to a full size photo
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/waltertore/P1000134.jpg

Those ovens really take me back. Four 16 inch large and a 14 inch medium or 12 inch small off center in the middle. Or 9 mediums or 12 smalls as I recall. I would start the rotation from the top back left work to the front then drop down to the lower oven and repeat the pattern. Then by the time the lower oven was loaded the tender had emptied the top oven and let it reheat I would then start the rotation top to bottom again.  Done right you can get a pizza out every 15 to 20 seconds from fresh hot fired ovens for about 3 rotations then the saturated heat in the hearth stone is used and the bottoms wont brown. The only thing to do is to close the oven doors and leave them closed for 15 to 20 minuets and go again. It is a rare event that you are likely to have a crew and a market that will out pace those ovens. Because of the depth of the door compounded with the depth of the oven paired with holding a 3 lb pizza on the end of a 36 inch pizza board as leverage means that you will touch the inside of your bicep to the oven door making you flinch upward and burn a stripe across the top of your arm on the top frame. As a result a lot of pizza makers at that time had these scars on the arms. This is so common I actually bared my arms and showed the burn scares indicative of deep reach brick pizza ovens as proof of being a pizza maker at a job interview. It got me a chance at the table and led to getting the job.

Look at these
http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_P44S_P44BL.pdf

I have used these and they have the same capacity and ability for volume as the old 1000.
They take up 24 square inches of counter top and hold 4 18 inch pies. I have done 400.00 an hour continuously with one
of these and the too can do three turns before resting. Two sets would do 60 pies and hour all night long.

Look at my pic spinning dough and you will see a set behind me and yes the pie in the air did go in that oven. 

[Bubba Kuhn]

"You can never, ever duplicate the results of years of tradition + years of experience with a little book learning and a recipe. "

Definitely true!  But I think that due to modern accessibility of group knowledge and modern tools, I bet a lot of guys and gals in their kitchens are making better pizzas than some of the old, experienced guys.  In the same way, modern builders who have a lot of book knowledge and a little on the job training are building MUCH more fireproof houses with their laminated beams, modern fire-stopping construction techniques and modern materials than the old, experienced builders did.

Don't get me wrong.  If you have the choice, ALWAYS go with the experienced builder. (like me!  )  I am trying to say that I would take a pizza made in a modern kitchen over one made in an outdated kitchen any day of the week.

I'm sorry Bubba if I have been rude.  I truly enjoyed this post as I love all your posts.  I especially appreciated your videos on pizza twirling.  Best on the web IMO.
One of the reasons I remodel is because I love history and seeing how things were done back in the day.  I just can't look at those times with nostalgia any more than I can look back at the days when I wouldn't be able to talk with you like this because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet!

No reason to be sorry and no offense taken. Look at the topic I but asked a question. I did not offer any opinion as to quality. Taste is subjective. I do not purport one method or time to be superior to the other. I but give voice to the variations in production that have occurred over time that have led to some characteristic changes in the handspun pizza industry over time.

When I opened my own shop I did not put in oil drawers nor did I go back to the old double hot rise cake yeast dough recipe that was the success standard for many years.  I used the newer slow proof and sour dough method.
dough balls were kept in plastic produce bags on sheet pans in a very cold reach in cooler. Makes a superior dough with the longest shelf life and no trouble with the count health department.

So I guess what I am trying to say here is the act of taking yesterdays knowledge and tempering it with today's wisdom should lead to tomorrows answers.  I guess nothing should be forsaken or forgotten.  And in that light I think I will post an old hot rise dough recipe for cake yeast next. 

[pizzaneer]

sounds great - this time of year, might be very useful!

[waltertore]

Buba:  thanks for some history on those ovens!  I had looked into the bakers pride line of countertop ovens.  The price was too high for a new one and the only used ones I found were on ebay and I am scared to buy something sight unseen.  I got the 2 blodgetts for $1,200.  One concern I had with the BP tabletops was the short height of the decks.  My special education students would struggle with that.  The 1000's have lots of room in this regard.  Another concern was I heard the table top ovens were not as good as the deck ovens. You obviously proved that wrong.  I noticed them in one of your recent posts and wondered if you used them for pies or something else.   We will not be taxing the 1000's at all.  I figure we will be mostly making breads in them- baquettes, semolina, sourdough.  I worked in a couple bakeries in austin tx that used older deck ovens for artisan breads.  Hopefully the pizza end will grow but selling them to the public out of a high school kitchen may not work very well.  People here are use to buying little cesear garbage pies for $6.  When people out here try one of my pies they love it but I doubt they will be willing to navagite to us for a NYC style pie vs. the multitude of garbage that is right on the corners of town.   People here have a very different palate than what I call normal.........  Time will tell.  the good news is we have lots of markets and cafes willing to give our breads, baked goods, a shot and our dog biscuits are a big hit.  I am thinking pre made pizza doughs might work in one market that has a more diverse customer base than this areas general population.  My job offers a rare opportunity- to be able to run a real training ground for entry level job skills and no fear of going out of business due to lack of profits.  I don't pay wages, insurance, rent, etc.  We are self sustained from our profits and the main thing is some very deserving souls get a real shot at being employed as adults.   Walter

[waltertore]

thanks buceriasdon!  I will have to work on that.  Walter

[BrickStoneOven]

Man, you guys are OLD!

[corkd]

I'm pretty sure I saw wooden proofing boxes at Pepe's "The Spot" in New Haven. Wonder if the others there use them as well.

[Bubba Kuhn]

Man, you guys are OLD!

Your turns coming!

[BrickStoneOven]

Your turns coming!

Yea but not for another 35-40 years .

[Bubba Kuhn]

Yea but not for another 35-40 years .

I'll see you then. AHAHAHAH!

[BrickStoneOven]

I'll see you then. AHAHAHAH!

You guys will be dinosaurs by then

[Bubba Kuhn]

You guys will be dinosaurs by then

I'm a dinosaur now, I'll be a fossil by then.

I wonder if a pizza ovens in hell would get hot enough for a good  Neapolitan style pizza? Or would you even need an oven and if not would that not be some sort of pizza heaven? I am at times confused.