Need some pointers for oven spring please

[eiram21]

Hello All,
I made the following formula earlier in the week and did a 3-day cold rise:
Flour (100%):    580.33 g  |  20.47 oz | 1.28 lbs
Water (63%):    365.61 g  |  12.9 oz | 0.81 lbs
IDY (.25%):    1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    8.7 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Oil (1%):    5.8 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Total (165.75%):   961.89 g | 33.93 oz | 2.12 lbs | TF = 0.1
Single Ball:   320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs

As you'll see in the following photos, the dough did not proof in the oven as much as one would hope. My guesses would be that either this is tied to the low percentage of yeast that I used or the fact that I took the dough out of the fridge 2.5 ahead of baking on a rather hot day (85 degrees?) Feedback appreciated...

I forgot to mention that I baked at 500 degrees for about 8 min each (three 12 in).
Thanks,
Marie

[eiram21]

more photos...

[eiram21]

more photos

[Pete-zza]

Marie,

Can you describe your baking configuration/arrangement?

Peter

[eiram21]

Hi Peter,
Sorry - yes - I used a cordorite (sp?) stone that I placed on the bottom rack of the oven, preheated for approximately 1 hour. I noticed the second pizza had even less oven spring, probably because of loss of heat. I've never had my oven calibrated, and I wonder if it's a true temp. I've never had any problems with other baked goods (eg, needing more time for cupcakes, cakes, etc, than called for in a recipe) so I assume it's at least close.

[Jet_deck]

Marie-- What kind of flour?

[eiram21]

I used KABF

The more I think about it, and read about NY dough, I'm guessing that I should have used a max 2-day cold ferment instead of the typical 3-day (especially without sugar) and shouldn't have proofed it out of the fridge for more than 1 hour or so before baking.

Is additional proofing even needed after it comes out of the fridge? Can I use it as soon as it comes to room temperature? That would make it easier to gauge the most appropriate time to proof on a warm day since the time would vary depending on room temp.

[Don K]

I have been using a recipe that is very similar to yours for a while now and I usually get a decent amount of spring. The biggest difference is the yeast. I use about twice as much, about 0.5%. 0.25% is minimal, even for a cold rise.

[dmcavanagh]

I agree with the Colonel, that's a lot of dough you have, and very little yeast. Try a full teaspoon next time.

[Pete-zza]

Marie,

Authentic NY style pizzas, of which the Lehmann NY style dough recipe is one representation, typically do not have large rims. In fact, they trend to be fairly small and flat. However, if you want a larger rim that results from increased oven spring, I was going to make the same suggestion that Don (Colonel_Klink) made, that is, use more yeast. At 0.50% IDY, you should be able to get two days of cold fermentation. I actually prefer three or more days of cold fermentation, but that is just me (some devotees of the NY style advocate just two days). If you want to go beyond two days of cold fermentation, you might want to use about 1% sugar in the dough to be sure that there is enough food for the increased amount of yeast and to contribute to final crust coloration.

You can also let the dough warm up at room temperature longer than usual so that the dough can expand more and become soft to the touch. Technically, a dough ball can be used to form a skin at a temperature of around 55 degrees F. However, I personally prefer a temperature closer to 70 degrees F. There are also those who have found that they can use the dough right out of the refrigerator. However, that does not work for everyone, and the result might be a lot of large bubbles in the finished crust. Some people actually like that although professionals usually don't because that can mean having to use bubble poppers to pierce the unwanted bubbles.

In forming the skins you will also want to be gentle and try to avoid handling the rim as much as possible. Ideally, you want to try to force the bubbles in the skin from the center of the dough to the rim and contribute to a generally larger rim.

Unless your oven (which I assume is electric) is not operating at the proper temperature, I do not think that it should take 8 minutes to bake a 12" pizza. In my electric oven, 6 minutes would be about right.

Peter

[eiram21]

Thank you for all your replies - it is very helpful.

I'll have to pay better attention to the bake time - it may very well have been 6 minutes...good to know that it should be 6.

Marie

[dmcavanagh]

Marie

Please let us know what your results are when you use more yeast.

[eiram21]

I will - I may even add a bit of sugar this week. I usually only do this weekly, although I could certainly eat it everyday!

[dmcavanagh]

eiram21

Absolutely no need for any sugar on a three day cold rise dough. All the "sugars" you need will be released from the flour during the fermentation process.

[Pete-zza]

Tom Lehmann's usual advice is to add some sugar to a NY style dough when the dough is to be held for more than two days,  as he notes, fo example, in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8933#p8933. In the dough recipe cited there, the yeast (IDY) is used at 0.375%. If Marie decides to go with 0.50% IDY, then that would suggest that some sugar may be necessary or desirable for a 3-day cold fermentation.

Peter

[dmcavanagh]

Have never encountered that problem Pete, and I do almost nothing but 3 day or longer doughs.

[Don K]

I usually use a tablespoon of honey for a 3-day rise. The residual sugar seems to help with browning.

[Pete-zza]

Have never encountered that problem Pete, and I do almost nothing but 3 day or longer doughs.

Dave,

My advice on matter like this tends to be conservative. 1% sugar is really not a lot. It's more like an insurance policy. With some experimentation, Marie can decide whether to use or not use sugar in her Lehmann-style dough.

Peter

[scott123]

Tom Lehmann's usual advice is to add some sugar to a NY style dough when the dough is to be held for more than two days,  as he notes, fo example, in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8933#p8933.

Peter, I couldn't help notice that his post was from 2007.  Perhaps his position has changed over the years?  The science on longer, lower yeast ferments producing more residual sugar than shorter higher yeast ferments is pretty well documented.

As far as taking the same dough with the same yeast quantity, fermenting it two days with good results and three days with lesser results, I definitely don't see sugar playing a productive role in that equation.  Sugar isn't going to repair enzyme damaged dough and could very possibly speed up fermentation a bit at the onset, which would only make matters worse. Sugar is, from everything I've seen, a mild accelerator.  If you're pushing the dough farther, you want retardation (cooler temps/less yeast), not acceleration.

[Don K]

I make no claims to be an expert on the subject, but...when I first added sugar to my recipe it seemed to speed up the fermentation at the onset too much, like scott123 mentioned. Then I upped the salt a little bit and it seemed to slow it back down. My guess is that the salt acts somewhat like a regulator.