Author Topic: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM (Read 5292 times)

scott123 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2012, 01:51:38 PM »

Quote from: mivler on October 12, 2012, 01:41:04 PM

How hot does your oven claim to get? Any way to trick it to get hotter without breaking it?

If your oven can hit 625, that's more then enough for any NY style bake time.

Is your oven gas or electric? Does it have a broiler in the main compartment? What's the peak temp on the dial?

mivler · « **Reply #21 on:** October 12, 2012, 11:23:55 PM »

The dial goes up to 550. I think that's pretty accurate but I'll take the oven temp tomorrow and let you know. Where do I get 1/2 inch steel and how long does it take to heat up? As you mentioned, the stone is pretty thick but I'm sure there are thicker stones out there. I kind of got lucky that we had to postpone the guests until Nov 4 so tomorrow it will just be me and my family so I can take some more notes about recovery time and oven temp. I would be less likely to take notes if I had a bunch of guests over. I also don't have to worry about feeding the hungry masses. Before I bake I’ll read up on wrapping and freezing cheese since I’m sure there’s no way I can get through all that cheese.

My oven is electric and it does have a broil setting. Browning the top generally isn't the problem; it's the bottom after the first pizza. Since I tend to make several pizzas in a row, by the third pizza it's totally pale on the bottom.
I generally use the regular bake when I make pizza since based on my nonscientific observations, the bake stone setting doesn't heat the bottom as much. I believe on bake setting the bottom of breads over-cooks and it tends to come out just right with the bake stone setting. If anyone knows that I'm not correct about that I would really like to know since I do switch up the settings and I'm not certain which does a better job.

mivler · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 2012, 11:33:35 AM »

I made several pizzas with the Bacio cheese( I was hoping that I would have been able to post some pictures but I won’t be able to do that until tonight or tomorrow)

My opinion is that Bacio is better than Polly-O but I wasn’t wowed. Again, for the record, I’ve been using Polly-O part skim for a while and I haven’t been happy. Bacio acted and tasted how I would have expected a good cheese but I’m not an expert so it’s really hard for me to say what anyone who has been using Grande (or any other high-end cheese) would think. Also, I’m apparently having oven temp issues so this wasn’t really ideal testing conditions.
I was very happy when I grated it that it wasn’t too moist so it made less of a mess than what I’m used to. To me, its very creamy and a little salty before I cooked it. It had a good flavor but I didn’t think (other than the creaminess) it was special. When spreading the cheese on the pizza, it was easier to work with than Polly-O since it didn’t clump as much (firmer) and spreading it quickly and evenly was pretty easy. This may have been because I usually let the cheese sit out in my warm kitchen out of the fridge for longer.

I’ve had some issues with my oven/stone temperature so you have to take the next part with a grain of salt. It usually takes so long for the pizza crust to brown that often the cheese is too brown by then. Although I don’t mind it, my kids won’t eat it when the cheese is brown. With that said, I didn’t really have that problem with Bacio, it browned a little but I think the amount was fine. I also think it was related to the temp of my oven.

Out of the oven the cheese stretch was good and it clung to the pizza as I expected it to. Sometimes with Polly-O park skim, the entire cheese comes off the slice with my first bite especially as it begins to cool. This didn’t happen with Bacio. The cheese tasted and felt good in my mouth but I can’t honestly say that the cheese stood out. Maybe I should have made one with minimum sauce so I could have tasted the cheese better. It did play a very nice supporting role in the overall pizza.
I did have another issue with the bottom crust being a little soggy. Unfortunately there were a lot of variables at play here so I can’t say for certain that it was the cheese, but I suspect that it was related. I used a different dough recipe than usual and I also made my own sauce (which I don’t often do).
I thought that using whole cheese would make my pizza a little oily but I didn’t find this to be a bad thing at all with the Bacio cheese.

As the result of my experimentation I’ve learned that my oven doesn’t get nearly as hot as it should (which is likely why I haven’t been very happy with my pizzas in a while. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the pizza that I had at my friend’s restaurant was great (same cheese). Although I was commenting more on the texture and stretch than the flavor of the cheese.
I’m not sure if my review was helpful but I if anyone else tries it would be curious about their opinion.
Regarding my oven. I put this chart together regarding temp and times. Unfortunately for me I’m in the process of moving (could be 6 months) but I’m trying not to put too much money into the house so unless I have an oven problem I can fix myself, I may need to figure ways around my oven issues. I have a double oven so the next time I think about it I’m going to test the temp of the other oven. My wolf oven with the wolf stone (in my opinion, one of the thicker stones out there). I was taking the stone temp but towards the end I realized that the oven and the stone were the same temp so I don’t think it’s a stone issue, I think it’s the oven.

Here’s the chart I made:
Elapsed
Time   temp (f)   comment
        turn oven on
1:03   486   oven thinks it hits 550
0:10   485   temp check
0:07   490   final check
0:02   488   pizza in (an hour and 22 minutes after I turned oven on)
0:06   385   pizza out   (baked about 6-7 minutes)
0:06   450   temp check
0:05   474   pizza in
0:06   371   pizza out   (bake about 6-7 minutes lose of 103 degrees)
0:10   465   temp check

mivler · « **Reply #23 on:** October 17, 2012, 09:12:05 AM »

Pictures

Jet_deck · « **Reply #24 on:** October 17, 2012, 09:24:27 AM »

She makes better pies than 99% of the World.

scott123 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 17, 2012, 09:54:26 AM »

Michael, grande-clones (such as Bacio) will always

1. Brown less (browning is a major defect in cheese)
2. Oil off a bit more than their equivalent whole milk/part skim supermarket counterparts
3. taste richer/more buttery/more flavorful- although this varies from brand to brand

This being said, even the best cheeses won't reach their peak potential, flavorwise, unless they are cooked enough. On both pies, it looks like your cheese could have used some more top heat. Give it more heat and the flavor will come out. The flavor might not ever match up with Grande or Polly-O food service, but it'll blow supermarket polly-o out of the water.

Another big factor in cheese flavor is thickness factor. The crust needs to be thin enough so the cheese gets heat from below, bubbles and gives up it's buttery flavor. It looks like your thickness factor is okay, but it's hard to tell. Do you know what TF you're working with? Also, get rid of that rolling pin

How are you measuring the temp of the oven? IR thermometer?

Is this oven gas or electric? Convection? If convection, are you using the convection feature during the pre-heat? During the bake?

Edit: I just noticed that you're using your floured launching peel to retrieve. Raw flour should never go anywhere near a cooked pizza. Use a wood peel for launching and a metal one for retrieving.

mivler · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2012, 11:06:49 PM »

Jet-Deck,

Thanks, it’s hard for me to cook anything without my daughter getting between me and the ingredients. It’s easier to just let her cook and manage the process. She takes it very seriously.

Scott,

Thanks so much for the info and opinions.

Wow, I’m surprised to hear that the cheese is underdone. I’ve included a zoomed image of some of the cheese. There are brown spots on it, do you think it should have more or will it cook different if heated properly?

I used to make thinner pizza but I found that it cooked a little better in my oven when I made it thicker. I’m pretty sure it’s directly related to the problem I’ve had getting the bottom to cook properly. I don’t enjoy the thicker pizza as much so I’m happy to attempt making it thinner again. For the record, the bottom of these pizzas were much better than I have had in the recent past. I think this was because I waited a little longer between baking pizzas and also the cheese didn’t brown as quickly as the supermarket Polly-O part skim, so I was able to keep it in the oven longer.

I know there’s a calculator somewhere but I can’t find it. I’m not sure if this is enough info to figure it out. I used the recipe:
High gluten flour   100%
Water   60%
Salt   2%
Olive oil   2%
Sugar   1%
IDY   0.1%

The balls were each 430g and I made close to 14 inch pizzas.
As a side note, this was the first I added oil and sugar in a long time. (Which was another reason I wasn't thrilled with the pizza) I added oil and sugar to try to get the crust to crisp and brown since there have been times recently where I had to pull out pizza that had way over browned cheese with very pale crust.

I’m interested to hear about the rolling pin. I used to hand stretch but, due to my lack of experience, the thickness was always uneven so I started using a rolling pin. I’m happy to go back to hand stretching knowing there’s an advantage (once I can even the thickness).

I never thought about not having raw flour on the cooked pizza, I’ll definitely stop using the same peel to pull my pizza out.
My oven is electric; I cooked in “bake stone” setting (not convection). I think the oven automatically uses convection in the pre-heat but once it reaches temp turns the convection off. (I’m not certain about that, but I don’t change the setting myself).

pizzaneer · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2012, 02:08:14 AM »

Not seeing anything wrong with the cheese, Scott. So it's not really super-orange, I still wouldn't kick it out of bed.

So it doesn't look like Snooki, so what?

scott123 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:35:55 AM »

Brian, it's not drastically underdone, but, for the best possible flavor, it could use a little bit more color. If ideal coloration is a 10, I'd put this at a 9.75. It just needs the tiniest bit more.

Michael, the brown spots you're seeing aren't all that brown. On a lower quality cheese, the brown spots have considerably more contrast- they start going brown quickly and keep getting darker and darker. With quality cheeses, the rate of browning is considerably slower, so even though you do have brown spots, they're not too contrast-y, and as you continue to bake the pizza, all the cheese takes on a slightly darker, more orange-y hue. Like I told Brian, it just needs a little more color for the oil to be driven out of it and the richness in in flavor to come to the forefront.

Here's a good video on stretching (ignore the rolling pin part):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

To achieve an even crust, without thinning in the middle, I've found that the most critical part of the stretch is the windshield wiper part, where he's stretching out the dough just inside the rim.

Here is the dough calculator:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

Right now, you're close to a .1 thickness factor, which, for authentic NY style, and for getting the most out of your cheese, is too thick. You should be shooting for closer to a .075 thickness factor, which, for a 14" pie, would be a 330 g dough ball.

Now, if you're not comfortable stretching, .075 can be especially difficult, so, while you're learning, if you want to go up to .085 (370 g), that's fine, but maintain an awareness that .075 should be the ultimate goal.

Is your dough doubling by the time you use it? How long are you fermenting it for? You're balling the dough right after you mix it, right?

What brand of high gluten flour are you using?

Oil and sugar are very much appropriate for NY style pizza, and, with lower temp ovens, they go a low way in accelerating browning, decreasing bake times, and not drying out the crumb too much.

Make absolutely certain that the convection fan is on for the pre-heat- listen for the fan and also, if possible, consult your manual. Convection will go a very long way in helping to make sure the stone is saturated with heat in the shortest time possible.

We still need to get to the bottom of why your oven is acting so anemically. A peak temp of 490 in an oven with a 550 dial is pretty horrible. How are you measuring the temp of the oven? IR thermometer?

mivler · « **Reply #29 on:** October 18, 2012, 12:53:51 PM »

Scott,

That video is great. It reminds me of when, at my friends restaurant (referenced in the thread below), I mentioned that I make really good pizza. He and his staff wanted to watch me make a pizza. I was a little embarrassed and knew enough not to ask for a rolling pin. I was referring to the finished product, not the actual process of making the pizza. That’s a great video of the process and I’m really psyched to have it so I can practice. For me it’s been more of flattening a ball and then flatten the thickest parts until I have a roundish pizza shape. What’s the benefit of doing it by hand rather than using a rolling pin (is it for style and the cornicione).

Thanks for the calculator link. I’m comfortable making thin pizza, so I’ll aim for .075. If I have problems I’ll shorten the diameter for my pizzas this time round (pun).

I make the dough, ball it right away and stick it in the fridge right away. In this case I used it 3 or 4 days later. I usually let it sit out for 2 hours before I use it but I was short on time so they went from the fridge to an oven at 110 for about an hour before I used them.
I always use King Arthur Sir Lancelot four.

I’m measuring temp with an IR thermometer. When I started taking temps the other day, I was just measuring the stone but then I checked the walls and noticed that the temp appeared to be the very similar to the stone.
I’ve since read a little about thermal density and realize now that the oven may have actually been hotter than the stone.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #30 on:** October 18, 2012, 01:03:38 PM »

Any place to purchase Bacio other than a distributor?

mivler · « **Reply #31 on:** October 18, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »

I don't think so. When I got it I was told that I won't have any to get it myself. I got it from a friend in the business.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #32 on:** October 18, 2012, 01:52:57 PM »

Web site shows Roma Foods as a distributor but the Roma here won't do cash an carry to the public....

mivler · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2012, 11:53:14 AM »

Scott,

My second pizza experiment with Bacio went much better than the first. (I plan to post pictures tonight). Although I went to Luzzo’s last night (sorry no pictures) and I was reminded how amazing pizza can be.

I made some minor modifications from my first round and I was very happily surprised how much better the pizza was.

-   I switched the oven (I have a double wall oven). When I switched I also shoved the stone as far back as I could. Since the stone is almost as big as the oven I wondered if the stone was touching the oven door.
-   I hand stretched (not rolled) the pizza based on the advice below. They weren’t quite 14 inches but definitely close, so I was definitely thinner than my last round of pizzas.
o   Luckily I wasn’t able to video myself stretching the dough, but even though the process wasn’t pretty, the final pizzas were fairly round and even. They tended to be a little too thin in the middle and too thick on the outside. And although I tried to avoid strecthing edge, the cornicione didn’t puff up at all in the oven)
-   Less sauce
-   I cooked the pizza longer (darker crust and the cheese still didn’t over-brown at all.)
-   Finally once the pizza was done I made sure the finished pizza never came in contact with raw flour.

These all seemed like minor modification but overall I was surprised how much of a difference this all made.

Going full circle with the original topic of the thread, I have to say I’m blown away with how much this cheese can get cooked and sizzle in the oven without getting over-browned. I need to do some research to find out if there are any supermarket cheeses that can do that. (Hopefully part-skim). Since the cheese needs to be able to take the extra cooking time too.
I had guests over so I wasn’t able to take as many measurements/pictures as I would have liked.
I did notice that the stone got up to 500. I have a few other oven temps recorded at home so when I post the pictures I’ll post the details. I think the temp rebounded faster because of the thinner pizza (not sure if I’m correct about that), the stone being pushed to the back of the oven so it wasn’t touching the door (I’m not certain it was touching before), and the longer cooking time with the pizza in the oven (not sure if that would have made a difference either.)

Thanks for all the advice; this was one of the first times I made pizza that I was happy with using my current oven.

Michael

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #34 on:** October 24, 2012, 12:31:05 PM »

part skin is going to brown faster. Try some whole milk Sorrento or Polly-O.

TomN · « **Reply #35 on:** October 24, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on May 29, 2012, 10:23:52 AM

Bill/SFNM beat me to the punch on this one. But, to add to what Bill said, spammers usually try to slip links into their posts or in signature lines or with their avatars. Maybe the new member is just a big fan of the Bacio cheese and wants to shout it out to the world. Even if the member is a spammer, I would not want to delete the post by scott r or the other members with opinions and views on the Bacio cheese.

Peter

I gave a call to the Bacio Cheese Company today. They are not aware of this pizza forum, so I am sure that they did not place it. I asked them for names of pizzerias in the Seattle area that use their cheese. There are several and I am going to give it a try. I will let you know what I think about Bacio cheese. It sounds like it will great cheese.

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 24, 2012, 07:38:52 PM »

Quote from: TomN on October 24, 2012, 06:54:36 PM

I gave a call to the Bacio Cheese Company today. They are not aware of this pizza forum, so I am sure that they did not place it.

They may not have, but I can almost guarantee their broker or rep group did. No random person made that first post.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #37 on:** October 24, 2012, 07:46:06 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on October 24, 2012, 07:38:52 PM

They may not have, but I can almost guarantee their broker or rep group did. No random person made that first post.

Craig,

I suspect you are right. The original poster has not been back since the opening post in this thread.

Peter

mivler · « **Reply #38 on:** October 24, 2012, 10:58:45 PM »

Should I be posting this somewhere else? After I got the loaf I searched the website for Bacio, that's why I posted here. Since my original post, the conversation has morphed other than the fact that it's the cheese I've been using.

TomN · « **Reply #39 on:** October 25, 2012, 12:39:25 AM »

With all respect to everyone's opinion, i am glad whoever posted this cheese, did so. I am always on the search for extra good cheese to purchase, even if that means that i have to go to a Pizzeria and ask them for a block for purchase and pay a little more for it. Do you all think that it is fair to keep the best stuff from the public? I don't agree with it, but that is the way it is.

Thank you moderator(s) for NOT deleting this thread.