Author Topic: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM  (Read 17694 times)

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scott123

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 09:54:26 AM »
Michael, grande-clones (such as Bacio) will always

1. Brown less (browning is a major defect in cheese)
2. Oil off a bit more than their equivalent whole milk/part skim supermarket counterparts
3. taste richer/more buttery/more flavorful- although this varies from brand to brand

This being said, even the best cheeses won't reach their peak potential, flavorwise, unless they are cooked enough.  On both pies, it looks like your cheese could have used some more top heat.  Give it more heat and the flavor will come out. The flavor might not ever match up with Grande or Polly-O food service, but it'll blow supermarket polly-o out of the water.

Another big factor in cheese flavor is thickness factor. The crust needs to be thin enough so the cheese gets heat from below, bubbles and gives up it's buttery flavor. It looks like your thickness factor is okay, but it's hard to tell. Do you know what TF you're working with?  Also, get rid of that rolling pin ;)  

How are you measuring the temp of the oven? IR thermometer?

Is this oven gas or electric? Convection? If convection, are you using the convection feature during the pre-heat? During the bake?

Edit: I just noticed that you're using your floured launching peel to retrieve.  Raw flour should never go anywhere near a cooked pizza.  Use a wood peel for launching and a metal one for retrieving.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 09:56:03 AM by scott123 »


Offline mivler

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 11:06:49 PM »
Jet-Deck,

Thanks, itís hard for me to cook anything without my daughter getting between me and the ingredients. Itís easier to just let her cook and manage the process. She takes it very seriously.

Scott,

Thanks so much for the info and opinions.

Wow, Iím surprised to hear that the cheese is underdone. Iíve included a zoomed image of some of the cheese. There are brown spots on it, do you think it should have more or will it cook different if heated properly?

I used to make thinner pizza but I found that it cooked a little better in my oven when I made it thicker. Iím pretty sure itís directly related to the problem Iíve had getting the bottom to cook properly. I donít enjoy the thicker pizza as much so Iím happy to attempt making it thinner again.  For the record, the bottom of these pizzas were much better than I have had in the recent past. I think this was because I waited a little longer between baking pizzas and also the cheese didnít brown as quickly as the supermarket Polly-O part skim, so I was able to keep it in the oven longer.

I know thereís a calculator somewhere but I canít find it. Iím not sure if this is enough info to figure it out. I used the recipe:
High gluten flour   100%
Water   60%
Salt   2%
Olive oil   2%
Sugar   1%
IDY   0.1%

The balls were each 430g and I made close to 14 inch pizzas.
As a side note, this was the first I added oil and sugar in a long time. (Which was another reason I wasn't thrilled with the pizza) I added oil and sugar to try to get the crust to crisp and brown since there have been times recently where I had to pull out pizza that had way over browned cheese with very pale crust.

Iím interested to hear about the rolling pin. I used to hand stretch but, due to my lack of experience, the thickness was always uneven so I started using a rolling pin. Iím happy to go back to hand stretching knowing thereís an advantage (once I can even the thickness).

I never thought about not having raw flour on the cooked pizza, Iíll definitely stop using the same peel to pull my pizza out.
My oven is electric; I cooked in ďbake stoneĒ setting (not convection). I think the oven automatically uses convection in the pre-heat but once it reaches temp turns the convection off. (Iím not certain about that, but I donít change the setting myself).

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2012, 02:08:14 AM »
Not seeing anything wrong with the cheese, Scott.  So it's not really super-orange, I still wouldn't kick it out of bed.

So it doesn't look like Snooki, so what?   :P :-D
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scott123

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2012, 07:35:55 AM »
Brian, it's not drastically underdone, but, for the best possible flavor, it could use a little bit more color. If ideal coloration is a 10, I'd put this at a 9.75. It just needs the tiniest bit more.

Michael, the brown spots you're seeing aren't all that brown.  On a lower quality cheese, the brown spots have considerably more contrast- they start going brown quickly and keep getting darker and darker.  With quality cheeses, the rate of browning is considerably slower, so even though you do have brown spots, they're not too contrast-y, and as you continue to bake the pizza, all the cheese takes on a slightly darker, more orange-y hue.  Like I told Brian, it just needs a little more color for the oil to be driven out of it and the richness in in flavor to come to the forefront.

Here's a good video on stretching (ignore the rolling pin part):



To achieve an even crust, without thinning in the middle, I've found that the most critical part of the stretch is the windshield wiper part, where he's stretching out the dough just inside the rim.

Here is the dough calculator:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

Right now, you're close to a .1 thickness factor, which, for authentic NY style, and for getting the most out of your cheese, is too thick. You should be shooting for closer to a .075 thickness factor, which, for a 14" pie, would be a 330 g dough ball.

Now, if you're not comfortable stretching, .075 can be especially difficult, so, while you're learning, if you want to go up to .085 (370 g), that's fine, but maintain an awareness that .075 should be the ultimate goal.

Is your dough doubling by the time you use it? How long are you fermenting it for? You're balling the dough right after you mix it, right?

What brand of high gluten flour are you using?

Oil and sugar are very much appropriate for NY style pizza, and, with lower temp ovens, they go a low way in accelerating browning, decreasing bake times, and not drying out the crumb too much.

Make absolutely certain that the convection fan is on for the pre-heat- listen for the fan and also, if possible, consult your manual.  Convection will go a very long way in helping to make sure the stone is saturated with heat in the shortest time possible.

We still need to get to the bottom of why your oven is acting so anemically. A peak temp of 490 in an oven with a 550 dial is pretty horrible. How are you measuring the temp of the oven? IR thermometer?

Offline mivler

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2012, 12:53:51 PM »
Scott,

That video is great. It reminds me of when, at my friends restaurant (referenced in the thread below), I mentioned that I make really good pizza. He and his staff wanted to watch me make a pizza. I was a little embarrassed and knew enough not to ask for a rolling pin. I was referring to the finished product, not the actual process of making the pizza. Thatís a great video of the process and Iím really psyched to have it so I can practice. For me itís been more of flattening a ball and then flatten the thickest parts until I have a roundish pizza shape. Whatís the benefit of doing it by hand rather than using a rolling pin (is it for style and the cornicione).

Thanks for the calculator link. Iím comfortable making thin pizza, so Iíll aim for .075. If I have problems Iíll shorten the diameter for my pizzas this time round (pun).

I make the dough, ball it right away and stick it in the fridge right away. In this case I used it 3 or 4 days later. I usually let it sit out for 2 hours before I use it but I was short on time so they went from the fridge to an oven at 110 for about an hour before I used them.
I always use King Arthur Sir Lancelot four.

Iím measuring temp with an IR thermometer. When I started taking temps the other day, I was just measuring the stone but then I checked the walls and noticed that the temp appeared to be the very similar to the stone.
Iíve since read a little about thermal density and realize now that the oven may have actually been hotter than the stone.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2012, 01:03:38 PM »
Any place to purchase Bacio other than a distributor?
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Offline mivler

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »
I don't think so. When I got it I was told that I won't have any to get it myself. I got it from a friend in the business.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2012, 01:52:57 PM »
Web site shows Roma Foods as a distributor but the Roma here won't do cash an carry to the public.... >:(
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Offline mivler

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 11:53:14 AM »
Scott,

My second pizza experiment with Bacio went much better than the first. (I plan to post pictures tonight). Although I went to Luzzoís last night (sorry no pictures) and I was reminded how amazing pizza can be. 

I made some minor modifications from my first round and I was very happily surprised how much better the pizza was.

-   I switched the oven (I have a double wall oven). When I switched I also shoved the stone as far back as I could. Since the stone is almost as big as the oven I wondered if the stone was touching the oven door.
-   I hand stretched (not rolled) the pizza based on the advice below. They werenít quite 14 inches but definitely close, so I was definitely thinner than my last round of pizzas.
               o   Luckily I wasnít able to video myself stretching the dough, but even though the process wasnít pretty, the final pizzas were fairly round and even. They tended to be a little too thin in the middle and too thick on the outside. And although I tried to avoid strecthing edge, the cornicione didnít puff up at all in the oven)
-   Less sauce
-   I cooked the pizza longer (darker crust and the cheese still didnít over-brown at all.)
-   Finally once the pizza was done I made sure the finished pizza never came in contact with raw flour.

These all seemed like minor modification but overall I was surprised how much of a difference this all made.

Going full circle with the original topic of the thread, I have to say Iím blown away with how much this cheese can get cooked and sizzle in the oven without getting over-browned.  I need to do some research to find out if there are any supermarket cheeses that can do that. (Hopefully part-skim). Since the cheese needs to be able to take the extra cooking time too.
I had guests over so I wasnít able to take as many measurements/pictures as I would have liked.
I did notice that the stone got up to 500. I have a few other oven temps recorded at home so when I post the pictures Iíll post the details. I think the temp rebounded faster because of the thinner pizza (not sure if Iím correct about that), the stone being pushed to the back of the oven so it wasnít touching the door (Iím not certain it was touching before), and the longer cooking time with the pizza in the oven (not sure if that would have made a difference either.)

Thanks for all the advice; this was one of the first times I made pizza that I was happy with using my current oven.

Michael


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 12:31:05 PM »
part skin is going to brown faster. Try some whole milk Sorrento or Polly-O.  ;)
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Offline TomN

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »
Bill/SFNM beat me to the punch on this one. But, to add to what Bill said, spammers usually try to slip links into their posts or in signature lines or with their avatars. Maybe the new member is just a big fan of the Bacio cheese and wants to shout it out to the world. Even if the member is a spammer, I would not want to delete the post by scott r or the other members with opinions and views on the Bacio cheese.

Peter

I gave a call to the Bacio Cheese Company today. They are not aware of this pizza forum, so I am sure that they did not place it. I asked them for names of pizzerias in the Seattle area that use their cheese. There are several and I am going to give it a try. I will let you know what I think about Bacio cheese. It sounds like it will great cheese.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 07:38:52 PM »
I gave a call to the Bacio Cheese Company today. They are not aware of this pizza forum, so I am sure that they did not place it.

They may not have, but I can almost guarantee their broker or rep group did. No random person made that first post.
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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2012, 07:46:06 PM »
They may not have, but I can almost guarantee their broker or rep group did. No random person made that first post.

Craig,

I suspect you are right. The original poster has not been back since the opening post in this thread.

Peter

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2012, 10:58:45 PM »
Should I be posting this somewhere else? After I got the loaf I searched the website for Bacio, that's why I posted here. Since my original post, the conversation has morphed other than the fact that it's the cheese I've been using.

Offline TomN

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2012, 12:39:25 AM »
With all respect to everyone's opinion, i am glad whoever posted this cheese, did so. I am always on the search for extra good cheese to purchase, even if that means that i have to go to a Pizzeria and ask them for a block for purchase and pay a little more for it. Do you all think that it is fair to keep the best stuff from the public? I don't agree with it, but that is the way it is.

Thank you moderator(s) for NOT deleting this thread.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:41:55 AM by TomN »

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2012, 12:51:39 AM »
Seconding the post above:

Why is it that the public is restricted from buying restaurant quality goods?   It makes no sense to me at all.  I ask out of genuine puzzlement, not trying to start a battle.

 
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2012, 01:19:53 AM »
Why is it that the public is restricted from buying restaurant quality goods?   It makes no sense to me at all.  I ask out of genuine puzzlement, not trying to start a battle.

It makes perfect sense. If a meaningful number of people were willing to pay, everyone would be willing to sell. Nobody is restricting restaurant-quality products. Realistically speaking, nobody wants them in consumer packaging - there simply are not enough people who are willing to pay for the quality to make it worthwhile to anyone in the value chain. Retail shelf space is extremely valuable, and retailers are not going to allocate it to low volume duplicate items no matter how good they are. Likewise, processing capacity is a limited resource for manufacturers, and they are not going to reduce efficiency by making extra changeovers to accommodate low volume items no matter how good they are. Thank Walmart and the others trying to keep up with them for forcing manufacturers to lower the quality of their items for the sake of lower cost. Thank the consumers flocking to Walmart expecting ever lower prices. Thank fast food and prepared food for lowering the demand for ingredient foodstuffs.

You can go out and buy all the restaurant quality goods you want. The problem is not that you are restricted from buying them but rather that you don't want to buy restaurant-sized packages.
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2012, 01:47:40 AM »
Then let's work on solving this problem, at least in our little corner of the cooking world...  has this been posted about before in a systemic way? 

Create buying groups distributed by geography, IE NorthEast, MidAtlantic, MidSouth, MidWest...  zones where the shipping is base price.  Buy in bulk, divide it and send it out.  All you would need is a Paypal and UPS account.  Or use the US Mail flat rate.

I know this would entail some effort, but it would seem to be a logical step to address the quality disparity.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2012, 02:05:55 PM »
Man, I've been trying something similar to that for a while now, in my Columbus, Ohio thread, which I started largely to find buddies who might be willing to go in on cases of things like Grande mozzarella. And although probably 7 or 8 central Ohioans have contributed to that thread, and at least one person has even shown considerable interest in splitting a case of Grande cheese, nothing real has happened yet, excluding the case of pepperoni that Nick (weemis) and I are going to split in a few days. But the pepperoni deal probably would have happened even if I had never started the thread, since Nick and I have actually met up a couple times already, and because we are both very active participants on these boards.

It's frustrating, especially because I'm willing to buy 15 or 20 lbs of cheese, which should make it easier to find people willing to split the rest. But I guess there just aren't many people who, like me, make pizza every day for months straight. Since I make so much pizza, I guess I have kinda lost touch with the reality that 5 or 6 lbs of cheese is a buttload to most other people; even most other pizza geeks.

It's also frustrating because of the possibility that people might make a commitment to buying part of a case and then back out after you buy the stuff. And I really don't want to deal with the various hassles involved with shipping to other members or having them ship something to me. So trying to coordinate such an effort has not been fun. And I still don't have any Grande mozzarella.

But you know what? More central Ohioans will eventually become pizzamaking.com members and see my Columbus thread, which means eventually there will be more local folks who will consider doing group buys. I've planted the seed, and it's sprouting a little. So I encourage y'all to consider doing the same thing in an effort to create a network of members in your area. Maybe you'll get more bites than I have.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TomN

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2012, 06:50:56 PM »
AimlessRyan,

I have found that most Pizzerias will be happy to sell you a bag or block of Grande cheese at a little higher price. Also, they too, are committed by their cheese distributors to purchase larger quantities in order to get a better price. (Some are on monthly contracts with required minimun orders) Therefore, everyone benefits on this. If one Pizzeria says no, then ask another one. You will find someone willing to sell you a bag or block of Grande or Bacio.

TomN
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 07:08:06 PM by TomN »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2012, 07:31:07 PM »
Tom, thanks for sharing your experience in that department. That's something I've actually been thinking about doing for years, ever since a Grande sales rep (or a distributor salesman) suggested that I approach a specific pizzeria about buying Grande mozzarella from them.

If I try that place and have no luck, it would probably be pretty hard to find another pizzeria in central Ohio that even uses Grande mozzarella since provolone is pretty standard in these parts. But maybe your experience will motivate me to give it a try.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TomN

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2012, 10:36:55 PM »
I often find it best when you eat Pizza at a Pizzeria on a regular basis, where they know you by name, then they are more willing to sell you some of their products. Once in a while, when i am too tired, i have even bought dough from a pizzeria. Just bring your own plastic freezer bag and have them put in a dough ball or two. i have even purchased a cup of sauce from different pizzerias as well. You would be surprise how much you could purchase by asking nice.

"Hey, I eat here all the time and i know that you use grande cheese on your pizza. Would it be possible to buy a bag from you? I want to cook a few things at home and this cheese is really great stuff. Thank you so very much. I am willing to pay you a little more for it than what you purchased it for. Thanks again."

Offline TheDude

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2012, 02:24:51 AM »
You are seeing Bacio in places because Roma aka Performance Food Group had a "break up" with Grande.  So if you are a PFG customer, Grande is no longer available...they are pushing Bacio.  I don't know the back story, but I'm guessing it's business...ie $$$.

As to sourcing....I'm in the Atlanta area and own a pizzeria.  If you need Grande, 00 flour, Alta Cucina, whatever...shoot me a message and I would be happy to help out/talk shop whatever.

Offline scott r

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2012, 09:58:57 AM »
yeah, same thing here with my new england area pfg/roma.... grande is gone and they are pushing bacio really hard.     such a bummer as grande is better with high heat.   

Offline TomN

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Re: BACIO IS THE CHEESE OF THE NEW MILLENIUM
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2012, 03:53:11 PM »
Hello Scott R,

I have had Grande many times, but not Bacio cheese. In your opinion, which cheese tastes better? Is there a big difference in taste with the Buffalo milk added to the Bacio cheese. Thank you

TomN
PS
I would love to hear comments from anyone else that has tried the two cheeses. I am looking for Flavor.


 

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