Major Problems.....

[pizzablogger]

I am completely flummoxed and quite frankly miffed off right now.

I've done the Farmers Market 3 weeks now.  My LBEs are still not close to where I want them, even after now a dozen experiments with various air foils, directors, etc. So even though I am not happy with my bakes and finished pizzas, there has been a quick good word said about the pizza stand:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-13/entertainment/bal-baltimore-farmers-peas-new-pizza-vendor-20120513_1_peas-new-pizza-vendor-olive-oil

First three weeks the dough came out very well.

Last week the dough was apparently at as high as 85° to 90°F for as long as 10-12 hours (long story, don't ask). By the time I got to it on Saturday night to ball, it was literally nuked. Like soup. I didn't have enough starter to make an emergency dough and did not have bakers yeast. So no market last Sunday.

So tonight I just "strained" all the mootz, got the sauce made and put the dough onto the work table to divide and make balls. I noticed immediately the dough looked flaccid and weak. I gave the mass a couple of stretch and folds and let it rest for 10 minutes.  I cut some of the mass off to make a dough ball. Impossible to make a dough ball. Was like dealing with pancake batter.

So more stretch and folds and rests and the dough will not come together and is very batter like and flaccid.

My immediate thought was the dough felt and looked like a dough that was leavened with a sourdough culture which was way beyond its optimal point of use.....or possibly of a dough overfermented as there was a little bit of water at the edges of the container the dough was in. Protease and acids releasing water already?

The reason I am flummoxed is that I did nothing different with this dough from the previous successful weeks except add a little bit of All Trumps unbleached/unbromated into the mix to aid in browning and mixed a little longer as it took just a tad longer to bring the dough together last night:

Friday night (11ish pm). Mix
Hobart 60qt mixer with spiral hook

Same direct method I've used for years and common on this site. Water, salt (dissolved), starter, most of flour.

Begin mixing, add remaining flour incrementally as it comes together.

Once dough pulls off from the sides of the bowl completely, check dough to see where it is at.

Last night I needed another 26 revolutions of the mixer to bring the dough to a cohesive mass with good initial gluten development. That point where with a big dough mass you can really notice the smell of the dough that comes on when the dough has come together.

Let rest in bowl 15 minutes. Do a few Tartine folds in bowl.

Rest 15 minutes.

Into Cambro bins (2) which go into my big Igloo Maxcold 165 quart cooler. Rest 15 minutes.

A few Tartine folds in bins and done. Dough looked, felt and smelled very nice.

I only needed to add a little ice to the cooler to maintain the temp between 60-65 degrees as it was cool last night and today. I checked the temp of the dough at 9am, noon and again at 5pm. I needed to add some ice at noon, but the temperature was never above 65°F. Perfect.

Formula
100% Flour (85% MC00, 15% AT)
61.50% Water
2.90% Salt
2.30% Starter (used within 25 minutes after it had domed and just started to recede. It smelled just like it always has for years at that point)

Again, the starter was used very close to the optimal point and did not smell or taste any differently than it has over the past few years.

The temperature was within the same window as I have been using for a few years. I usually ferment in my basement, which is in the mid-sixties, but I need to use a commercial kitchen for this application. But the temps were spot on. Just like the first few weeks.

The only difference is the AT flour and I cannot see that being the issue.

I'm tired and not thinking straight and will analyse this more tomorrow....and I need to go back and see what I can do, if anything, to get something that can be used to make pizza tomorrow. It will suck to strike out two weeks in a row.

Any ideas? Wow, this is weird. Thanks.

Back to the dough  --K

[pizzaneer]

What occurs to me is whether you are using a damaged flour.  Even separate bags that were filled & shipped around the same time can be from the same mill worklot.   All other variables sound like they have remained constant.   

The only way I think of to test this won't help you at this point, 2.5 hours before market opening.  Get the red bag of Caputo and test it side by side with the blue bag you usually use.

I also wonder whether your hydration might be a factor.  Environmental conditions are generally compensated for by the pizzaolo on the day of making, in effect that means they don't follow a strict formula.  If the air is damp, use less water, etc.

I'm sorry to hear this.  I was looking forward to working with you today.
-Brian
 

[Pete-zza]

Kelly,

Our regulars who routinely work with long, ambient temperature fermented doughs are likely to be more help to you than I but you might want to take a look at the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 where I discussed my experiences with such doughs. In my case, I used IDY but, at 0.012%, it was minuscule.

Peter

[pizzablogger]

Brian, the reason I hold back from adding all of the flour at first is so that if the day dictates that not all of the flour is needed, I don't add it all. Am I as proficient as a real pizzaiolo? Not by a long shot....but I try to do it that way.

What was different is that I increased the amount of dough I made as I sold out at 50 pizzas last outing. So I mixed for 65 pies.  Perhaps the larger volume of the bulk mass sped up the fermentation process (mass effect) and I need to account for that by dropping

 the starter amount. At the market now....more later -k

[scott123]

Kelly, congratulations on the little bit of great press.

It doesn't sound like there's anything that anyone can do for you for last night's dough, but for future reference, here's some thoughts.

Develop a cake yeast overnight dough and have it ready if a dough fails this critically for you again.  I talk a lot about the superiority of longer ferments, but, it's better to have a slightly subpar overnight cake yeast dough than to not show up at all. Think of this like a slower and more carefully aimed second serve after you've blasted the first serve into the net.

The first thing that I'm noticing with your process is the doughmaking time.  I don't know about you, but at 11 pm Fri., I'm seriously tired and usually a bit tipsy. Even if you haven't been drinking, an exhausting week can really mess with your focus. Is there any chance you made a mistake with the formula?

Have you thoroughly checked your math on the 85/15 blend?  I've had trouble in that area before.

These batches of doughs are the biggest you've ever done, correct?  I think there might be more going on with bulk ferments than just the insulating effects of the mass of dough and slightly higher temps. First three weeks- you said it came out well, but could it have been a tiny bit on the slack side?  If that was the case, then I'd dial back the fermentation a tiny bit by going with a little more ice and a little less starter.  Also, while 61.5% water is a very safe realm for MC, I think, while you're working this out, just to play it a bit safer, you might want to try 60%.  60% should still give you great pies, with a little more room for error on the fermentation side.

I am by no means an expert on sourdoughs, but, from the conversations I've had with John Wozniak, I believe that bacterial activity (acid generation) can be curtailed while yeast activity is promoted by washing. If you are washing, step it up a bit, and, if you aren't, add a wash.

Lastly, if you're working with sourdough on a commercial level, you should invest in a pH meter. It won't tell you everything, but it should add anther piece to the puzzle. Find out which one Norma has- I'm pretty sure she's happy with hers.

[norma427]

Lastly, if you're working with sourdough on a commercial level, you should invest in a pH meter. It won't tell you everything, but it should add anther piece to the puzzle. Find out which one Norma has- I'm pretty sure she's happy with hers.

Kelly,

I don’t know if you are interested, but since Scott mentioned it, I do like my pH meter.  I have used it different times in experiments for sourdoughs and other experiments.  I could see if the pH values of my sourdoughs were falling too fast if they were fermented for awhile.  My pH meter was originally used for salsas, but it can take the pH of dough accurately too.  This is the pH meter I have.  http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Oakton_Waterproof_pHTestr_20_1_00_to_15_00_pH_Range/EW-35634-20 I don’t know if my pH meter is the best for dough though.  Maybe you could contact Cole-Parmer or another place that sells pH meters if you are interested in taking the pH values of your sourdough.  I had another member that is working with sourdough on a commercial level PM me about maybe purchasing a pH meter.

Good luck and best of wishes for success! 

Norma

[Jet_deck]

Sorry that your befuzzled, Kelly.   Hope you get things back on track soon.  Any chance that the dough creeped past 65 during storage?
The larger dough mass would have taken longer to cool than usual...

[pizzablogger]

Kelly, congratulations on the little bit of great press.

Thanks Scott.

Develop a cake yeast overnight dough and have it ready if a dough fails this critically for you again.  I talk a lot about the superiority of longer ferments, but, it's better to have a slightly subpar overnight cake yeast dough than to not show up at all.

Agreed

I don't know about you, but at 11 pm Fri., I'm seriously tired and usually a bit tipsy. Even if you haven't been drinking, an exhausting week can really mess with your focus. Is there any chance you made a mistake with the formula?

Have you thoroughly checked your math on the 85/15 blend?  I've had trouble in that area before.

Yes, I am seriously tired on Friday night at 11pm. Especially with a 13 month old that is still not sleeping through the night. I'm pretty careful about measuring out my ingredients, so I don't think that is the issue with this batch.

These batches of doughs are the biggest you've ever done, correct?

Very much so. And I think with a couple of weeks I could get to a point where I could sell 70-80 pies a Sunday. That is about the maximum output my two LBEs can handle at this point (given cooking times and my still amateurish time to open and dress a skin).

I think there might be more going on with bulk ferments than just the insulating effects of the mass of dough and slightly higher temps. First three weeks- you said it came out well, but could it have been a tiny bit on the slack side?

The very first week was just a tad slack. The next two weeks the skins had wonderful, silky extensibility. They only got slack towards the last hour of the market (11:00am to 12:00am. It starts at 7:30am).

I think, while you're working this out, just to play it a bit safer, you might want to try 60%.  60% should still give you great pies, with a little more room for error on the fermentation side.

I'm doing 60% this week. 60% dries out a bit in my LBEs, particularly when it gets very busy around 10am and the pies are going almost non-stop. The "floor" loses heat (at times from 750 to 550) and cook times extend out from 2:30ish to 4:30ish. I need more thermal mass on the floor (two stones) to help in this regard, but that is another story.

I am by no means an expert on sourdoughs, but, from the conversations I've had with John Wozniak, I believe that bacterial activity (acid generation) can be curtailed while yeast activity is promoted by washing. If you are washing, step it up a bit, and, if you aren't, add a wash.

I am no expert either. I agree with John about the wash, but at the temps of my usual bulk ferment and also when considering a good amount of the starter is dumped off and fed a few times before final use in the formula...and the starter itself is not left out in a warmer environment, I would think the acid generation would be curtailed per usual. Again, I could be wrong. Making dough for 4-8 pizzas at home as I have done in the past and making dough for 50-80 pizzas is a different ballgame.

Lastly, if you're working with sourdough on a commercial level, you should invest in a pH meter. It won't tell you everything, but it should add anther piece to the puzzle. Find out which one Norma has- I'm pretty sure she's happy with hers.

Agreed. I know this sounds ridiculous, but the sourdough did not look, smell or taste noticeably different than it usually does when I use it...and I've used it for a few years now. That doesn't measure pH, but it makes me think the starter was not a major culprit.

But I need more analytical tools to help speed up my intuitive abilities dealing with such a volume of dough. A pH meter is one. And since I am not at the location where my dough ferments, I need to acquire one of those thermometers with the USB connection on it that you can plug into a computer and see a running history of the temperatures in the cooler during the fermentation. A probe thermometer to tell what the interior temp is something else I should get.

Due to my regular job and home life, I often am not getting more than 90 minutes to 2 hours of sleep from being done late Saturday night to getting up early to pack up and get to the market to ready the stand for opening.

This whole experience, which takes much more time during the week than I ever anticipated, makes me realize the gulf between home pizza maker and commercial professional is a large chasm indeed.To the latter doing it well, I salute you. --K

[pizzablogger]

Sorry that your befuzzled, Kelly.   Hope you get things back on track soon.  Any chance that the dough creeped past 65 during storage?
The larger dough mass would have taken longer to cool than usual...

Not sure. When I went a couple of times to check and take a temp (via IR Gun), the surface of the dough and interior of the cooler were spot on. Dittos for when I got to the dough Saturday night for balling.

Anything is possible though. As I replied to Scott, one of those thermometers with the USB connection on it so I can see the complete temp history of the dough during fermentation is needed. I'm going to order one after logging off of here.

Thanks. How are things with you? --K

[pizzablogger]

Kelly,

I don’t know if you are interested, but since Scott mentioned it, I do like my pH meter.  I have used it different times in experiments for sourdoughs and other experiments.  I could see if the pH values of my sourdoughs were falling too fast if they were fermented for awhile.  My pH meter was originally used for salsas, but it can take the pH of dough accurately too.  This is the pH meter I have.  http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Oakton_Waterproof_pHTestr_20_1_00_to_15_00_pH_Range/EW-35634-20 I don’t know if my pH meter is the best for dough though.  Maybe you could contact Cole-Parmer or another place that sells pH meters if you are interested in taking the pH values of your sourdough.  I had another member that is working with sourdough on a commercial level PM me about maybe purchasing a pH meter.

Good luck and best of wishes for success! 

Norma

Thanks Norma. I'm gonna look into that now! 

[Jet_deck]

Thanks. How are things with you? --K

Great, just not enough hours in the day or days in the week.

[R2-Bayou]

pizzablogger,

First let me say how awesome I think it is that you're doing this! I'm so stoked to see people on this forum rocking out pies with their LBE's at farmers markets and the like. I've been considering setting up at farmers markets and music festivals for a while now. One of the thing that's perplexed me is the temperature maintenance for the dough that is leavened with starter much like yours. Especially with summer temperature extremes, car storage, etc. The cooler and ice combo looks like it maintains temp for you just fine, are you balling into individual tupperware containers? I was looking at using my DoughMate containers and an insulated food pan carrier with a cool pack, like the one below. the only problem is they're ridiculously expensive for some reason.

not sure what's up with you sd starter, I assumed it was an accelerated fermentation because of temp, but am interested in the pH discussion..

[SinoChef]

I remember reading a report from about 15 years ago. A catering company had an outbreak of some form of Listeria ( I think) They threw everything out,removed all the equipment, power washed, disinfected the entire kitchen top to bottom. Put all the equipment back in. And had another outbreak.  The culprit was hiding under the table mounted, commercial can opener bracket.

I know it's tough to form a thought when your frazzled and burnt out. Right now you focused on the dough.

When I was reading through this, the only thing I could think of was some outside contaminant that you not seeing. Who cleans your equipment? Some residual cleaning agent some where in your process?

[pizzaneer]

I'm going to throw this idea out there, and let the big fish go to town on it.   
 
 Adjusting hydration to account for seasonal variations in bulk ferment temperature.  Even "controlled" conditions.  Unless you are in a major facility with dedicated environmental controls, the seasons WILL make a difference.

Use a higher (61%) hydration with no reserve in the winter & cooler months.
Use a lower (55-60%) hydration with no reserve in the warmer months.

Frankly, I'm lost over the reserving bench flour concept.  Once the water is in there and the gluten is formed, what difference does bench flour make?  Unless you reball and ferment again, why would it affect performance?  If I've missed something major, please tell me, but I've never seen a difference.


 

[norma427]

Thanks Norma. I'm gonna look into that now!  

Kelly,

If you want to try out my pH meter before you purchase one, let me know.  I would gladly loan it to you until you decide if you want to purchase one.  I could easily send it to you on Wednesday.  

Norma

[pizzablogger]

I've been considering setting up at farmers markets and music festivals for a while now. One of the thing that's perplexed me is the temperature maintenance for the dough that is leavened with starter much like yours. Especially with summer temperature extremes, car storage, etc. The cooler and ice combo looks like it maintains temp for you just fine, are you balling into individual tupperware containers? I was looking at using my DoughMate containers and an insulated food pan carrier with a cool pack, like the one below. the only problem is they're ridiculously expensive for some reason.

I think I am going to start a separate thread about the market stand, equipment used, etc to give thoughts to others like you thinking of doing the same.

I purchased an Igloo Max Cold 165 (http://www.igloocoolers.com/Coolers_3/Best-Sellers-Coolers/165-Quart-MaxCold) from Costco for $89, which is a very good deal. I am going to buy another this week while they still have them at this price.

The trick is finding something to fit the doughballs inside the narrow space (13") of that cooler.

I starter with individual tupperware containers. The nice thing about the tupperware is that the cooler I listed above has a smaller top trap door on it. You can quickly open the top trap door, remove a container or two and not open the entire lid to let lots of warm air in. It is also easy to get the dough ball ready for shaping...invert, tap and out comes the dough.

The negative of the tupperware is your cooler is filled with mostly air. Even with my cooler, which is a monster, I can fit 45 dough balls. So not the best way to maximize space.  The killer with the tupperware is time for cleaning. If your goal is to sell, call it 50 pizzas in a session, that's 100 pieces (container and lid) that needs to be cleaned and rinsed. That takes time, dittos for adding the olive oil to each container.

Unfortunately, the smaller artisan dough trays from Medan Plastics do not fit my cooler. The dimensions listed on their website do not include the thickness of the walls. So no go there.

I ended up purchasing six Cambro 12CW clear containers (http://www.amazon.com/Cambro-Camwear-12CW-148-White-Full/dp/B005544J58/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1338850987&sr=8-21) from Restaurant Depot and lids to go with it. I also purchased six Cambro 22CW containers (http://www.amazon.com/Cambro-Food-Deep-Clear-22CW-135/dp/B000XARKDM/ref=sr_1_12?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1338851103&sr=1-12) and lids. The lids are more expensive than the containers.

You can fit 6 dough balls in the 12CW containers and you could likely cram four in the smaller size, but I use 3 (offset) to reduce the sticking of dough balls to each other.  I cam fit one 12CW and one 22CW side by side and stack six high. That's 54 dough balls per container.

The negative of the Cambro containers is I have to open the entire lid of the cooler to extract a container. The container also demands more make table space and there is also the time all the doughballs have to sit outside. And it takes a tad longer to remove a dougball from the tray as it does to plop one down from a tupperware.

But I've reduced the items to clean, which saves a lot of time after the normal washing with soap, rinsing, bleach-water soak and final rinse is involved.

Cooler $89.
Cambro 12CW: $51
Cambro 12CW Lids: $70
Cambro 22CW: $36
Cambro 22CW Lids: $40
Total $286

So, it's cheaper to just buy the tupperware containers.  But the cleaning time is tenous. In my case, the time for cleaning is a backbreaker, so I went with the Cambro option.

I also have three 12"x12" greek marble tiles ($3.50 each at home depot). I have two side by side on my folding table, with the pizza peel butted up against it. I dump the dough balls on the left most one with bench flour on it, start slapping there and move it over onto the adjacent tile with no flour on it as I slap. Dress, slide onto peel and launch. Many of you would laugh at how slow I am at the method. The third tile gets kept in the smaller cooler with all the ice and cheese in it. Where my stand is situated the sun does make it onto the make table a bit and as the marble gets hot and the dough starts sticking to it, I remove the one tile closest to the peel, wipe of any small amount of flour on it and put it into the cooler....with the cold tile that was in the cooler taking its place.

Some ways, maybe not the best, to deal with the heat. --K

[pizzablogger]

I remember reading a report from about 15 years ago. A catering company had an outbreak of some form of Listeria ( I think) They threw everything out,removed all the equipment, power washed, disinfected the entire kitchen top to bottom. Put all the equipment back in. And had another outbreak.  The culprit was hiding under the table mounted, commercial can opener bracket.

I know it's tough to form a thought when your frazzled and burnt out. Right now you focused on the dough.

When I was reading through this, the only thing I could think of was some outside contaminant that you not seeing. Who cleans your equipment? Some residual cleaning agent some where in your process?

That's an interesting story!

I basically do everything, including the cleaning. I guess some residual cleaning agent could be a factor. But I am somewhat fanatical about rinsing everything. Who knows at this point.

I've got test pizzas for tomorrow's LBE experiment proofing that I just balled. The dough looked and felt wonderful. 10 dough balls made with no problems. So the culture is not contaminated and appears to be working at a smaller batch level....

Thanks for the thoughts. --K

[R2-Bayou]

Thanks! yeah, a new thread for LBE style market stands would be a good read.. Appreciated your response on the containers.

[pizzaneer]

Kelly, you might find this video of interest, especially the last 30 seconds or so, when he's talking about the need for additional ventilation during warm weather

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3MEV-dQ0A&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3MEV-dQ0A&amp;feature=related</a>

[BrickStoneOven]

The negative of the tupperware is your cooler is filled with mostly air. Even with my cooler, which is a monster, I can fit 45 dough balls. So not the best way to maximize space.  The killer with the tupperware is time for cleaning. If your goal is to sell, call it 50 pizzas in a session, that's 100 pieces (container and lid) that needs to be cleaned and rinsed. That takes time, dittos for adding the olive oil to each container.

Unfortunately, the smaller artisan dough trays from Medan Plastics do not fit my cooler. The dimensions listed on their website do not include the thickness of the walls. So no go there.

Are you using the round glad containers? Have you tried using these http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=12232&categoryid=149#.T9AX9dVYtrM ? Each one acts like a lid for the other so you only need one for the very top pan. If you have 10 stacks 5 high, you'll only have 10 lids compared to 50 lids.