Some help please to dial in my lehman dough pies

[slybarman]

I have made a few batches of the Lehman NY dough recipe. I have been using KABF @ 63% hydration, 1%oil and 2% sugar, and a cold rise of 3 days or so. Final dough temps are 82 or so. I have been baking the pies @ 500 in my home oven on a Cordierite stone on the bottom rack of the oven. Typical bake time as about 14 minutes. Total pre-heat time has been in the neighborhood of 1 1/2 - 2 hrs.

Here is what I would like to improve upon:

1) When the bottom of the pie seems done, the cheese is starting to brown, but the upper crust around the top of the rim is not done enough. The rim tends to be a more doughy and chewy than I would like. I would like to even this out so the upper crust is done enough and the cheese is not over-done. Is anyone adding the cheese mid-bake? FWIW - my oven will go up to 550 if it would help. My local pizzeria which does an excellent NY style pie says they are baking theirs at 475-500.

2) I don't think I am getting the dough thin enough for my taste. When forming the pie, I am trying not to over-work the dough and I am stretching it as thin as I seem able without tearing, but I am only getting a 14-15" pie from an 18 oz dough ball and it is thicker than my local pizzeria's. Seems like I should be able to get the bottom thinner for a more typical NY style pie. I typically take the dough out an hour or so before bake time.

Suggestions welcome.

[Pete-zza]

slybarman,

I think the crust thickness problem should be fairly easy to fix but do you know what kind of flour your local pizzeria is using and whether it is bromated? It it a well known pizzeria with a website or is it just a local place without a website? Also, I think that you may have forgotten to tell us how much yeast, and the type of yeast, you have been using.

I also assume that your oven is an electric oven. Fourteen minutes bake time is far too much for a basic Lehmann NY style pizza, or any other NY style pizza for that matter. You also shouldn't have to preheat the oven and stone for more than an hour, and you shouldn't have to add the cheese after the pizza has baked for a while. I have done it experimentally but I did it because I was using a lot of cheddar cheese as part of an overall cheese blend and that cheese has a tendency to oil off much more than other pizza cheeses.

Is there a particular size pizza you want to make?

Peter

[slybarman]

slybarman,

I think the crust thickness problem should be fairly easy to fix but do you know what kind of flour your local pizzeria is using and whether it is bromated? It it a well known pizzeria with a website or is it just a local place without a website? Also, I think that you may have forgotten to tell us how much yeast, and the type of yeast, you have been using.

I also assume that your oven is an electric oven. Fourteen minutes bake time is far too much for a basic Lehmann NY style pizza, or any other NY style pizza for that matter. You also shouldn't have to preheat the oven and stone for more than an hour, and you shouldn't have to add the cheese after the pizza has baked for a while. I have done it experimentally but I did it because I was using a lot of cheddar cheese as part of an overall cheese blend and that cheese has a tendency to oil off much more than other pizza cheeses.

Is there a particular size pizza you want to make?

Peter

Hi Pete:

This is my local:

http://www.squisitopizzaandpasta.com/

They told me they use high gluten flour. We did not discuss whether it was bromated.

I am using .25% IDY yeast.

My oven is electric. It takes at least 30 minutes to get to 500 (maybe a bit more). After an hour, the cordierite stone is somewhere around 480. That is why I have allowed at least an hour and a half. The stone is about 15" so this is a limiting factor on my pizza size.

You say that 14 minutes is much too long. How long are others taking at 500 degrees? Should I go higher on temp or ? Should I move to a higher rack in the oven?

[Pete-zza]

slybarman,

Although there are a few high-gluten flours that are unbromated, such as the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour and some Pendleton high-gluten flours, most high-gluten flours are bromated. If your objective is to simulate the Squisito NY style pizzas, you will perhaps have to go with a bromated high-gluten flour. As an alternative, you can also go with a bromated bread flour. In fact, many people prefer using bread flour rather than high-gluten flour. So, in that respect, your KABF, although unbromated, is at least in the ballpark from a protein standpoint.

As far as ovens and bake times are concerned, there are many possible arrangements and configurations. My oven is a standard builder's grade Whirpool electric oven that is now over 21 years old. I can position a bottom rack in my oven so that a stone on that rack is 3" from the lower heating coil. I have a 14" x 16" x 5/8" (with feet) Cordierite stone. With that stone on the bottom rack, it takes about an hour for the stone to reach a temperature of over 500 degrees F. I actually want the stone temperature to be around 500 degrees F, so I will usually periodically test the stone temperature with my infrared thermometer. Lately, with Texas temperatures in the 90-100 degrees F range, I have been heating my stone for about 45 minutes. It won't be long now before I will not be baking pizzas at all. A basic Lehmann NY style pizza baked on my Cordierite stone, with modest amounts of cheeses and toppings, will take about 6 minutes for the bottom of the pizza to have the proper coloration. I then check the top of the pizza to see if it is done. If not, I typically lift the pizza off of the stone with my metal peel and move it to a higher oven rack position. In my oven, I can place a rack that is 6" below the top electric coil. I leave the pizza on that rack for about one minute--sometimes a bit more or a bit less. In my oven, there is plenty of heat at the top of my ovens so I do not have to turn on the broiler. Once the top crust and the cheese are of the desired color, I remove the pizza from the oven. So, a total bake time of about 6-7 minutes is quite normal in my oven. Of course, there are many other ways of baking the Lehmann NY style pizza. To get a more authentic NY style pizza, some people have gone to using steel plates on which to bake their pizzas, and some bake their pizzas entirely at the top part of the oven, in conjunction with the broiler, and whether using a stone or metal plate.

As far as crust thickness is concerned, you might want to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and enter a thickness factor of around 0.085 to start, for whatever pizza size that you want to make with your 15" stone. I would personally go with a 14" size with a 15" stone to make it easier to load the unbaked pizza onto that size stone without going over the edge of the stone. With a few experiments, you will be able to zero in on a crust thickness factor to use to give you the final crust thickness that is most to your liking. You shouldn't expect to exactly replicate the Squizito pizzas, but you should still get pizzas that you will enjoy. To get closer to the Squisito pizzas from a style standpoint, you would have to take other measures as mentioned above.

Peter

[slybarman]

Thank you Pete:

I guess my take-aways are:

1) Use a smaller dough ball and try to stretch it thinner. Though I would appreciate any tips you might have on getting it thinner without tearing it (different hydration, different dough temp, or ?).

2) Try to "dome" the pizza on a higher rack to get the rim more well done rather than waiting for it to happen on the lower rack.

[Pete-zza]

1) Use a smaller dough ball and try to stretch it thinner. Though I would appreciate any tips you might have on getting it thinner without tearing it (different hydration, different dough temp, or ?).

slybarman,

You could do that but you will have a hard time reproducing the crust thickness if you manage to achieve the desired thickness. It is far better to use the expanded dough calculating tool because you can have a record of what you did in each experiment. If you need help using that tool, let me know.

As far as forming rip-proof skins is concerned, it is usually practice that solves that problem. For the dough formulation you gave, you should be able to use the dough within two or three days. Before forming the skin, you should let the dough ball warm up for an hour or two until it is soft. From that point on, the dough should be usable within a couple more hours. Commercial dough balls often handle better and more easily than dough balls made in a home setting because commercial mixers do a better job mixing and kneading doughs than most standard home mixers. If your next dough batch leads to handling problems, let us know. Most commercial pizza operators use a lower hydration than you are using. They are more likely to be using a hydration of around 56-59%, especially if the workers who make the pizzas do not have a lot of experience handling doughs with higher hydration levels.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

slybarman, 

You mentioned earlier that your local pizzeria uses an oven temperature of around 475-500 degrees F. That is quite common. Those temperatures are compatible with the used of bromated flours, as member scott r mentions at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5338.msg45189.html#msg45189.

Peter

[slybarman]

I read about the Bromated flour in the glossary. It does not sound like very nice stuff. 

[slybarman]

I tried again tonight. I was successful getting the crust a little thinner. I went down a bit on the hydration and up a bit on the oil. I also took the dough out of the refrigerator 1 1/2 hour before bake.

I also tried moving the first pie up to an upper rack after six minutes. This did not seem to help as the cheese only browned even faster and still lagged the crust .

For the second pie, I tried baking the pie for a few minutes before adding the cheese. This did seem to balance out the done-ness of the crust versus the cheese. I am not sure it is the long-term solution though. Question - will lowering the hydration of the dough cause the crust to crisp and brown faster or do I have to go to bromated flour?

Another issue is I think I am using too much bench flour as my crust and bottom seem kinda "dusty" and I have flour left on the plate after eating. The bench flour seems necessary to help keep it from sticking, so how do I make the dough manageable, but not end up with flour all over the finished pie?

The first photo below shows the difference in done-ness of the rim between the two pies. The slice on the right was cooked 6 minutes and then moved to the upper rack for a minute or two. The slice on the left is the one I baked a couple minutes before adding the cheese. The left slice also has some ricotta on it and less mozzarella - I ran out of mozzarella.

Sorry for the pica of half-eaten slices, but I was trying to show what the crust looked like in structure and color.

[Tscarborough]

Freeze your shredded cheese and keep the sauce cold until use.  That will generally give you an extra minute or so for browning of the crust.  You can also brush the edge with olive oil before you cook it.

[Meatballs]

I say never apologize for a half eaten pizza slice, you only need to apologize if you eat the whole piece and have no picture.  Personally, I would have had to apologize, the pizza looks good.

Ron

[Pete-zza]

slybarman,

Have you been having a problem with the skins sticking all along and having to use excessive amounts of bench flour? Looking at your photos, I see what appears to be a lot of raw flour on the rims of the slices. If that is so, the raw flour on the rims will prevent the dough beneath it from browning properly. In fact, the rim might remain on the light side because the radiant heat at the top of the oven will not be able to penetrate the film of raw flour to brown the dough beneath it, or even the raw flour itself. By contrast, the bottom of the crust might be burnt because the raw flour, if it is also on the bottom of the skin, will be in direct contact with the hot stone. Usually baked raw flour has a bitterness to it.

As far as the stickiness problem itself is concerned, one way to overcome or reduce that stickiness is to lower the hydration of the dough. Many pizza operators, especially those who employ workers to make the pizzas who do not have much experience or skill in working with high hydration doughs, will frequently use a hydration of around 58%. You might want to try that value and decide whether to increase it as you gain more experience working with higher hydration values.

A high hydration dough is actually preferred if you want to have a light and open and airy crumb, and also if you want to get increased crispiness. How this works is discussed in the quoted section of the post at Reply 981 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562.

Can you also tell me what brand and type of mozzarella cheese you have been using?

Peter

[slybarman]

Freeze your shredded cheese and keep the sauce cold until use.  That will generally give you an extra minute or so for browning of the crust.  You can also brush the edge with olive oil before you cook it.

Those are good tips. Thank you. I will give them a try next time. Hopefully that will get me enough time. It seems like I need 2-3 minutes, but maybe once I get rid of the excess flour and lower the hydration a bit, one minute will be enough.

[slybarman]

I say never apologize for a half eaten pizza slice, you only need to apologize if you eat the whole piece and have no picture.  Personally, I would have had to apologize, the pizza looks good.

Ron

Thanks - that is good of you to say!

[slybarman]

slybarman,

Have you been having a problem with the skins sticking all along and having to use excessive amounts of bench flour? Looking at your photos, I see what appears to be a lot of raw flour on the rims of the slices. If that is so, the raw flour on the rims will prevent the dough beneath it from browning properly. In fact, the rim might remain on the light side because the radiant heat at the top of the oven will not be able to penetrate the film of raw flour to brown the dough beneath it, or even the raw flour itself. By contrast, the bottom of the crust might be burnt because the raw flour, if it is also on the bottom of the skin, will be in direct contact with the hot stone. Usually baked raw flour has a bitterness to it.

As far as the stickiness problem itself is concerned, one way to overcome or reduce that stickiness is to lower the hydration of the dough. Many pizza operators, especially those who employ workers to make the pizzas who do not have much experience or skill in working with high hydration doughs, will frequently use a hydration of around 58%. You might want to try that value and decide whether to increase it as you gain more experience working with higher hydration values.

A high hydration dough is actually preferred if you want to have a light and open and airy crumb, and also if you want to get increased crispiness. How this works is discussed in the quoted section of the post at Reply 981 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562.

Can you also tell me what brand and type of mozzarella cheese you have been using?

Peter

Pete:

The mozzarella, was lucerne brand part-skim from the local safeway. Nothing fancy. Is there another one I should try?

[Pete-zza]

Pete:

The mozzarella, was lucerne brand part-skim from the local safeway. Nothing fancy. Is there another one I should try?

slybarman,

That isn't a bad cheese. In fact, I like it and often use it myself, especially when there are no national brands on sale. I often do as Tom (Tscarborough) suggests. It is often out of necessity that I put the shredded cheese into the refrigerator, particularly in the summer, because if I leave the shredded cheese out at Texas room temperature it starts to congeal into a mess. I usually wait until I am ready to make the pizza to take the cheese out of the refrigerator.

If you correct the hydration and minimize the bench flour you may find that the overcooking of the cheese is also alleviated.

Peter

[slybarman]

Roger that. Thanks.

[slybarman]

Per suggestion, I dialed down the hydration (60%), cut back on the bench flour, froze the cheese, and brushed the rim with olive oil.

Lowering the hydration did make the dough easier to handle and did make it manageable for me with less bench flour. The crust had a better taste and texture without all the excess flour. It also made the crust more reminiscent of my local.

Freezing the cheese did help a bit, but as you can see from photos, it still burned before the rim was really done. The one thing that helped the cheese more than anything was pepperoni.   The pies in the photos are half cheese and half pepperoni. The cheese on the pepperoni side isn't burned.

In any case, I feel like it is going in the right direction. I will take the hydration down another notch or two (59 or 58%) for the next one. BTW - I only got one day of cold ferment this time, so the crust may not have had quite as much structure as it could have.l

[slybarman]

I dropped the hydration down to 58% and the dough was much easier to handle as Pete and others said it would be. I was able to stretch the dough much thinner than I have in the past and was able to toss the dough with relative success. I was also able to use much less bench flour.

The bad news was that our AC compressor died Friday night and it was much too hot in the house to run the oven, so I made the two dough balls out on the grill. I have to say that I really do like the results on the grill. While the grill marks don't shout "authentic NY pizza", the crust browns beautifully and has excellent taste and texture.

I will also be curious to try the lower hydration dough inside as well to see how it does now that I can stretch it a little thinner. I think I will be able to reduce the size of the dough balls by an ounce or two and get the same size pie.

[Tscarborough]

Don't put any oil in the dough, but brush the rim with it before cooking, that will give some more browning, since it looks like your dough is cooking through.