Author Topic: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb  (Read 1029 times)

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Offline brandonb

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Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« on: July 28, 2012, 12:49:45 PM »
After working on Neapolitan for a while, I'm trying to dial in a NY pizza recipe/process. I've made a couple, and they have turned out pretty good, but I would like to get a bit more bubbles/air in the crumb structure of the crust. Below is my recipe and process. Would be great to get any feedback on how I should adjust it.

Gold Medal BFB Flour: 100%
Water: 62%
ADY: 0.64%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 1.9%
Thickness factor: 0.85
Size: 12"

Lightly mixed flour and water and let rest for 10 minutes.
Added in remaining ingredients and mixed in KA on low for 3-4 minutes.
Let rest for 5 minutes
Mix in KA on medium for 3-4 minutes
Bulk proofed in fridge overnight for 9 hours
Balled (3 - 275g balls) and returned to fridge for 9 hours
Removed from fridge and proofed for 2.5 hours
Stretched on counter top (push from the inside to the out and then using 2 flat hands to spread and rotate)
Cooked in home oven on pizza stone on the upper-middle rack.
- Stone preheated at 550' for ~45 minutes
- Stone temp read 620'  before first pizza
- Cooked for about 5-6 minutes

If you're curious, made 3 pizzas. Used 6-in-1 tomatoes for red sauce with a bit of roasted garlic, salt, and sugar.
- Pepp/Saus - Red sauce, pepperoni, spicy italian sausage, caramelized onions, fresh mozzarella
- BLT - Half red/half plain - fontinella cheese, bacon, tomatoes, spinach, and shredded mozzarella
- Truffle mushroom - Fontinella cheese, porcini mushrooms, tomatoes, shredded mozzarella, black truffle oil (after cooked)

I unfortunately didn't take pictures as we had guests. However, I just took a few pictures of the leftovers that were in the fridge overnight. See below. Not too helpful, but gives you an idea of the output.

Thanks for your advice!


buceriasdon

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 03:53:01 PM »

Offline scott123

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 12:23:12 AM »
Brandon, beyond switching to a bromated flour that Don recommended (preferably a mid high gluten bromated flour like full strength or spring king), I would also advise you to trim your bake time a bit. If you are hitting 5, that's good, but from an oven spring perspective, 4 is a bit better than 5.

Describe your stone to me.  Thickness? Material? Source?

Where in your oven is the stone placed?

Are you using convection or broiling?

Do you reach 620 deg. every time?  Does the top and the bottom of the stone hit 620?

If you can reliably hit 620, top and bottom, that gives you a little more flexibility when it comes to stone shopping.  1" cordierite, at 620, should bring you down to 3 minutes, which for NY, is about as low as you want to go. At least, I think it should.  Cordierite can be a bit of a wild card- every manufacture's cordierite is different. An Axner kiln shelf should have no problems doing very respectable NY 4 minute bakes at 620 and most likely will do 3 as well. If you want to be absolutely certain going the cordierite route, you might want to give cordierite-mullite a shot- or just get 1/2" steel. The really nice thing about cordierite is that it's quite a bit lighter than steel and easier to take in and out of the oven.

Offline brandonb

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 10:54:09 AM »
Here's my stone - http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-4461-16-Inch-Oven/dp/B0000E19MW/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Below is a picture of the stone in my oven. It's just about in the middle. The 620' reading I provided was the top of the stone, I did not take a reading of the bottom of the stone. I've been pretty happy with it. When I do Neapolitan and use self-cleaning mode, I've got the stone up over 900'.

I'm not using convection or broiling, just standard bake at 550' (max temp). I've tried broiling with NY style, and found that the bottom didn't get done fast enough. But possibly if I tried different stone location, my results could improve with broiling. (With Neapolitan, I have the stone on the top rack and use self-cleaning broil to cook the pizza in about 90 seconds)





Offline jsaras

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 12:18:43 PM »
I'm not the leading authority here, but your dough management looks correct. I betcha that if you upped your hydration a bit you'd get what you're looking for. 
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

buceriasdon

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 12:30:51 PM »
I would also hydrate the ADY first in 1/4 cup  warm water but it does sound like your rise is fine.
Don

Offline brandonb

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 12:31:56 PM »
I do hydrate the ADY in warm water for ~10 minutes before adding to the mixer.

Offline brandonb

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2012, 09:31:01 PM »
So it sounds like try some bromated flour and potentially increase hydration? Any other thoughts or suggestions to try?

Thanks for the help so far!

Offline Vesuvi0

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 10:11:47 PM »
Your hydration percent, IMO, really shouldn't get any higher.

My suggestion is that you increase your kneading time.  I'm not sure what KA machine you are using or if you have the spiral "power-knead" attachment, but regardless I think at minimum your mixing time should be about double what it's currently at.  I don't believe 3-4 minutes is ample time for the gluten to develop.  Without a strong gluten structure, the steam that generates from the high hydration content in your dough and high even temp does not have enough of a strong chamber to become trapped in.  Achieve a stronger dough and you will get that "puff" you are looking for.

Hope it works out in the end.
Vesuvi0

Offline Vesuvi0

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 10:13:18 PM »
Without a strong gluten structure, the steam that generates from the high hydration content in your dough and high even temp does not have enough of a strong chamber to become trapped in.

Typo in this sentence.  I meant "oven" temp  ;D
Vesuvi0


Offline brandonb

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 10:18:51 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll increase my mix time and see what happens.

We have the standard, KA mixer. (Around $300-400 or so) I'm using the stock "C" dough hook.

Offline Vesuvi0

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 11:43:34 PM »
Excellent.

C-hook might give you issues where the dough climbs the attachment.  To get around this (if it even gives you issues), try the Varasano "wet-knead" method where you do the majority of the kneading before you add in all of the flour.  While the dough doesnt form a ball, a lot of gluten development is taking place here...

Good luck and looking forward to seeing that airy cornicione!!
Vesuvi0

Offline Riprazor

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Re: Working on NY, looking for more air/bubble in crumb
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 09:42:24 AM »
You describe your technique as pushing from the inside out.  You may try actually forming your rim first by pressing your fingers against the outside edge about 1/2 inch inside your dough ball and effectively "rolling" the edge from the outside in.  This results in a slightly higher rim that is very soft and rises well.  Once the rim is formed, I push from the inside out and stretch/hand slap in a way similar to what you describe.  It is a subtle difference but not insignificant.  Of course the bromated flour suggestion makes everything much easier.