Author Topic: problem with pizza making NY (Read 1692 times)

alluree · « **on:** June 15, 2012, 07:47:06 AM »

Hello I'm from Spain and mi English is poor.

I have a problem to make a pizza.

I've used 200gr flour
63% water
1.75gr Oil
4 gr Salt

but now i've used Instant Dry Yeast (IDY) I used Fresh Dry Yeast (FDY). Yesterday i did a pizza with IDY and put the dough in a tupper in the fridge(COLD) , but i've seen that the dough don't up level, what is the problem?

with FDY the dough increased in size

Pete-zza · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2012, 07:56:04 AM »

alluree,

Can you tell us how much of the IDY and FDY you used? And, by FDY, I assume that you mean fresh (compressed) yeast that comes in a large or small block or cube. Is that correct? Also, did you measure the temperature of the finished dough balls and did you use water at the same temperature when you made the dough balls?

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2012, 07:59:23 AM »

When I made the pizzas with Fresh(Compressed) Dry Yeast , the dough level up , buy yesterday I made a pizza with IDY and I've seen that dough dont level up. i dont know the temperture of water and dogh balls , what is the correct?

ty

alluree · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2012, 08:03:10 AM »

I have the dough in the fridge over 17hours more or less

Pete-zza · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2012, 09:10:43 AM »

alluree,

How many grams of IDY and FDY did you use?

When making pizza dough at home, a typical dough temperature ideally should be around 75-80 degrees F (24-27 degrees C).

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2012, 11:22:19 AM »

I use over 1.42 gr ( IDY only yesterday , with this recipe) I use always Compressed Yeast. , always i see recipes at forum , yesterday I made this.

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 7.14 oz. (202.26 g.), 1 3/4 c. plus 1 t.
63%, Water*, 4.49 oz. (127.42 g.), between 1/2 and 5/8 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 5/8 t.
1%, Oil (extra-virgin olive oil), 0.07 oz. (2.02 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
0.7%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.05 oz. (1.42 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
* Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of between 85-90 degree F
Total dough weight = 11.88 oz. (336.66 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Note: All measurements U.S./metric standard

pete u are the owner , hahah

Pete-zza · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2012, 11:44:03 AM »

alluree,

Now I recognize the dough formulation

.

However, I do not know why your dough didn't rise that much after about 17 hours. It should have been jumping out of the bowl with all that yeast. You might want to give it some more fermentation time to see if the dough rises more. Or, when you decide you want to make a pizza out of the dough, you can let the dough warm up at room temperature for a couple of hours to see if it rises then and becomes quite soft to the touch. If not, there may be something wrong with your IDY.

The reason I asked you about the amount of yeasts you used is because when using fresh yeast, it should weigh about three times the weight of the IDY. Fresh yeast also starts the fermentation sooner because it is a wet yeast with over 70% water. But the fresh yeast version shouldn't dramatically outrace the IDY version if used in the proper relationship.

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #7 on:** June 15, 2012, 11:59:09 AM »

Tomorrow I'll see de results of the dough.. the next pizza I make i will use water a little hot.

When i see photos about pizza making i see dough balls compressed after fermentation , but I make de dough in the mixer , the dough is very liquid with > 55% of water , what is the secret for after cold , I can knead without add more flour to dough

Pete-zza · « **Reply #8 on:** June 15, 2012, 08:27:35 PM »

alluree,

When you see dough balls that look compressed or flattened, that is usually because of a high hydration or a long fermentation where the gluten structure has been broken down by the action of acids and enzymes in the dough. If you are finding that your dough is "liquid" at a hydration level of 55%, that might be because the flour you are using where you are in Spain is a weak flour with a low protein level. In the U.S., bread flours and high-gluten flours routinely can handle absorption values of 62-63%. If your hydration problem is because of a weak flour, you will either have to try to find a higher-protein, higher-gluten flour or you may have to lower the hydration value that you have been using. You can also use stretch and fold and other similar dough handling methods to more fully develop the gluten structure even with hydration values greater than 55%. However, the recipe you used was not intended to incorporate such methods.

I do not believe that there are really any secrets that apply after the cold fermentation. However, you should not re-knead, re-ball or otherwise re-work the dough once it comes out of the refrigerator since that can make the dough elastic and hard to shape and form into a skin. Also, you will want to let the dough warm up at room temperature for about an hour or two before using to make the pizza.

You might find the series of posts starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563/topicseen.html#msg19563 of use since it addresses many of the facets of the preparation and management of a dough quite similar to the one you are using.

Peter

Tscarborough · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2012, 09:19:52 PM »

I do not let the dough warm after a cold ferment, and to the best of my memory we did not do so at Domino's 25 years ago (greydough-playdough we called it). It works fine cold, and has the added benefit of never having blown-out dough (until day 9 or 10 anyway).

Pete-zza · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2012, 09:56:01 PM »

Tom,

alluree is using the Lehmann NY style dough formulation--the one that I started the Lehmann thread with several years ago. Whenever I discuss the Lehmann formulation with other members, I try as much as possible to pass on Tom's recommendations on the use of the dough, including, in this case, the use of a temper period. Also, alluree indicated that he was having a problem getting the dough to rise. Letting the dough temper might help that problem.

The above aside, I agree that there are some doughs that can be handled cold. For example, high hydration doughs that might become overly extensible if allowed to warm up usually do better if worked cold. I wouldn't dare trying to do that with a dough with a hydration of, say, 52-53%. Most of the big pizza chains have manuals that instruct the workers on the temperature at which they should open the dough balls. Two cases that I can recall offhand say around 54 degrees F. For me, that is usually too low. My advice is that people try opening their dough both ways and see which approach works best.

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2012, 12:11:04 PM »

I have an another question , what is the order for making a dough?

before put the yeast with the water?

put oil later?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2012, 12:31:13 PM »

alluree,

The recipe you are using is based on a commercial NY style dough formulation. You can see the order of preparation in the instructions given at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. Remember, that is for a commecial size batch of dough using commercial equipment, so your mix and knead times will be different for a small dough ball size.

You can also see similar instructions from Tom Lehmann as given at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

alluree · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2012, 01:16:35 PM »

Thanks pete , but i have a problem , the flour that I use contains 12g of proteins , i havent found flour with more % of protein ( over.. 13 o 14gr )

What is the recipe more correct for flour with this protein? i would have over 55-68 % of hydration no ?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2012, 01:30:54 PM »

Quote from: alluree on June 17, 2012, 01:16:35 PM

Thanks pete , but i have a problem , the flour that I use contains 12g of proteins , i havent found flour with more % of protein ( over.. 13 o 14gr )

What is the recipe more correct for flour with this protein? i would have over 55-68 % of hydration no ?

alluree,

You might want to try using a hydration of around 58-59% and see how that works out. The rest of the ingredient amounts can remain the same.

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2012, 07:11:30 PM »

Why we add sometimes Sugar to dough? what is the reaction of sugar in a dough?

anton-luigi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2012, 07:28:49 PM »

Sugar will help you with crust coloring, but needs to be added to the dough in greater amounts with longer fermentation times as it gets broken down and utilized during fermentation. at least thats my take on it. Pete will be able to give you a more thorough answer when and if he chimes in.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2012, 08:09:29 PM »

Quote from: alluree on June 18, 2012, 07:11:30 PM

Why we add sometimes Sugar to dough? what is the reaction of sugar in a dough?

alluree,

Sugar has several possible functions in a dough. Specifically, sugar is used to feed the yeast (after being converted to simple sugars), to increase the tenderness of the finished crust (if it is used in large amounts and especially if it is also used with oil in the dough), to provide crust color (through caramelization and Maillard reactions), and to provide flavor/taste through sweetness (if used at high levels). Sugar can also be used, in small amounts, to help speed up the activity of dry yeast during rehydration.

For further details, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10219.msg89669/topicseen.html#msg89669, Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7915.msg67933/topicseen.html#msg67933, Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17911.msg182580.html#msg182580, and the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26479#p26479.

Peter

alluree · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2012, 04:05:09 AM »

maybe the problem that i have with Instant Dry Yeast is that I dont add sugar and dough doesnt level up in the fridge

Pete-zza · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:57:02 AM »

Quote from: alluree on June 19, 2012, 04:05:09 AM

maybe the problem that i have with Instant Dry Yeast is that I dont add sugar and dough doesnt level up in the fridge

alluree,

It is not necessary to add a small amount of sugar to the water to activate the IDY. In fact, if your IDY is not dead, you can simply add it to the flour. However, as I demonstrated at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18122.msg175780/topicseen.html#msg175780, adding a pinch of sugar to warm water with IDY will cause the IDY to become frothy after several minutes. You might try a similar test with your IDY to see if it is still good.

FYI, the usual test to determine whether yeast is alive and usable is described as follows from the FAQ section of the Fleishchmann's consumer yeast website at http://www.breadworld.com/FAQ.aspx:

How do I proof yeast to test for activity?
To proof yeast, add 1 teaspoon sugar to 1/4 cup warm water (100° to 110°F). Stir in 1 envelope yeast (2 1/4 teaspoons); let stand 10 minutes. If the yeast foams to the 1/2 cup mark, it is active and you may use it in your recipe.

The above test will work for any brand of dry yeast.

Peter